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Victron is Over-priced Eurotrash. Why would anybody buy Victron over an AiO?

Hedges said:
Based on his use of quotations "100A", I'm going to go out on a limb and say he thought it was a 100A auto-transformer. It is a 28A auto-transformer, able to handle 32A briefly. It has 100A relay to pass through L1 and L2.
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Correct, and no I did not think it was a 100A transformer, it is an 'autotransformer' with a 30A winding to provide 120v/30A to either side of a neutral. My 110v loads never exceed 20A, so it was actually perfect for the application. It did not however provide 120v/120v. I looked it up on the pictures after my last post. It 116v/124v, an 8 volt spread. The only way I can see that happening is if the winding is bad. Unlike a dry transformer it does not have multiple taps. One of the application wiring diagrams shared a neutral with the input, perhaps this would somehow fix the disparity. I don't really know because I was unable to get any support for the thing to find out it's quirks. I'm quite familiar with a dry transformer with which I could do something similar but would actually handle 120v@200a or any combination of 240/120 that did not exceed 24KW (for any length of time). I just was avoiding putting one of those 400lb monstrosities somewhere. I think the dry transformers are like 95% efficient.
 
cs1234 said:
Must be nice out there in the middle of nowhere. ?
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It’s really not that far out in the sticks but it’s a mile to the nearest active line. I would have to go along row crop ground in some parts (jacking up the the turning radius of big green machines) and clear old fence rows in other spots. And it’s at the corner of the area claimed by two coops and a regular utility company (Ameren) and none seem too enthusiastic.
 
ksmithaz1 said:
You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there :cool: !
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I have a quad-zoned dual AC system in Tucson, and both my ACs combined "only" take 8kW. My vue, which I installed all of 2-3 weeks ago shows a peak usage of 16.1kW, which was likely when my ACs both ran along with my EV charger, which is a situation that I plan to alleviate through scheduling. I'm also connected through grid, so I don't plan to worry about peak usage.

In fact, I haven't pulled the trigger on any hardware yet, but one thing (other than Mr. Bluenose) that keeps drawing me back to Victron is all the ways it can deal with various demands and limits by combining all the various sources. That also allows me to build a smaller system that can meet more average requirements without stressing over what happens if everything actually does kick on at once.

I should also add that, if I were completely off grid, I would be more concerned about reliability and less about payback time.
 
I think SMA with SB and SI gets closest to a low frequency AIO; but it requires specific BMS units to talk to it. Or that yet to be proven EG4 box.

And that’s with 20 year old tech in regards to an interface.
 
ksmithaz1 said:
You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there :cool: !
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Exactly. 24 kw is equivalent to a 100 amp service. Many larger homes or folks with shops have 200 amp.

My 4x Sunny Island setup should be just enough to run my mom’s house (gas and wood heat) and my shop (gas heat) when powering wood or metal working equipment without turning off a dozen other things.

Start powering multiple mini splits, multiple freezer and refrigerators, and then start using a 30 Amp plasma cutter and 5 hp air compressor, and that wattage and amps will start being sucked up.

I will install another 4x Sunny Island setup when I build my house.

Can one live off grid with much less? Absolutely. Do I care to? Absolutely not. I want a hot tub and a pool. And plenty of other modern conveniences. I have slept on top of Humvees, on the ground, on cots, in sea cans (aka conexes), and in tiny Korean apartments. I want some damned luxuries, including in the event of civilization collapse. Lol.
 
I was pretty much settled on dual Quattro 8kw or 4 x multiplus2 4kw but lately I’ve been entertaining a Schneider setup. 100% off grid no permits. Trophy 304ah x2 with hydro and solar booth feeding the system. Gravity spring so no well pump but do have some large woodworking equipment.
 
NC_hydro said:
I was pretty much settled on dual Quattro 8kw or 4 x multiplus2 4kw but lately I’ve been entertaining a Schneider setup. 100% off grid no permits. Trophy 304ah x2 with hydro and solar booth feeding the system. Gravity spring so no well pump but do have some large woodworking equipment.
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Be careful, I don't think the 8kVA Quattro's can be paralleled like the 5, 10 and 15kVA can be
 
ksmithaz1 said:
My 110v loads never exceed 20A, so it was actually perfect for the application. It did not however provide 120v/120v. I looked it up on the pictures after my last post. It 116v/124v, an 8 volt spread. The only way I can see that happening is if the winding is bad.
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I think transformers are often specified as 3%, meaning secondary starts out 3% high in voltage under no-load, drops to 3% low with load.

An auto-transformer has two coupled windings that are identical. If used with 120V input to make 240V and other 120V phase, sized as for 3% isolation transformer, could get 6% droop. So maybe good for half the current.

With 240V in and carrying 2/3 of rated current on center tape, 4V droop from 120V seems reasonable. Any harm you see in that?


Where I've tried to create 3-phase using 3x SI fed by 120V from grid, grid has been 125V for L1, and L2 & L3 are rock solid 120V from the inverters. I think imbalance is not a good thing for 3-phase transformers and motors. It was OK for 3x single-phase transformers, but I had issues with high neutral current using 3-phase on one E-core.


ksmithaz1 said:
I'm quite familiar with a dry transformer with which I could do something similar but would actually handle 120v@200a or any combination of 240/120 that did not exceed 24KW (for any length of time). I just was avoiding putting one of those 400lb monstrosities somewhere. I think the dry transformers are like 95% efficient.
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I do have several of those monstrosities. Have you seen my threads on idle current waveform?
For your application, I would feed 240V into 240V + 240V = 480V primary winding, ground center tap, and call it a relatively ideal auto-transformer.
 
Hedges said:
I do have several of those monstrosities. Have you seen my threads on idle current waveform?
For your application, I would feed 240V into 240V + 240V = 480V primary winding, ground center tap, and call it a relatively ideal auto-transformer.
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A bit off topic, but wow, not seen the thread but very interesting will go poke around. . . I agree, and a simple 480/240 can be had for < $2K, but you really do need a place to put it. My question would be how much it would help with surge currents and such more so than the neutral angle; since I went with the EG4 the split phase is now built in. If you are pushing 3-phase output surge is probably not as bad to start with, dunno, my experience with 3P is having the idiot electrician wire the 110v outlets to a 277v lighting circuit, along with exploding power strips. The dry transformers I've dealt with were for isolation from some heavy equipment that kept dimming the lights, and screwing up the power in the server room. It did help quite a bit, but we were peeling off a leg here and there of the 3P, ... at the time I was listnin' and learnin' why that wire goes there. The screw machines were all running 3P direct wire but some of the other stuff was L15-30 and some L6 here and there. The swamp coolers were all 240 I think the HVAC was all 3P. We also had plenty of room to mount the box and stick a panel behind it to feed the room. We had the requisite power bill to go with it, well into 5 digits. Big building over 100 machines on the main floor. Amazing what you pick up building out server rooms.
 
120/240 high-leg delta 3-phase would have one leg that could cook some stuff.
I hope nobody ever wires a leg of 277/480 to a 120V outlet.

transformers don't help with surge current, unless they are taking in 2 legs of a 240V circuit and therefore putting twice the power on a 120V circuit.

3-phase motors have just as much surge as single-phase, but better starting torque. And can start & run on reduced voltage (step-down transformer) for reduced surge current.

Used 25kVA transformers can be had for $300 to $600, but shipping may double that. I got one 3-phase shipped reasonably, picked up two other transformers by driving down to Southern California.

Transformer waveforms.
TL;DR: Don't try to backfeed secondary. Don't feed primary at rated voltage using inverter, feed at reduced, like 50% voltage (120V into 240V winding.)

diysolarforum.com

transformer excitation current - isolation transformer used as auto-transformer

So you think you can backfeed a transformer secondary, either as step-up or as auto-transformer? Turns out these things aren't so ideal and reversible as one might expect. It isn't just the greater inrush (primary is often wound outside secondary to reduce inrush current), but also idle current...
diysolarforum.com diysolarforum.com


Auto-transformer helping balance load on two 120V inverters stacked for 240V
TL;DR: It helps, but only a bit. Isolation transformer would be much better, but refer to "Transformer waveforms", above.

diysolarforum.com

Measurement of auto-transformer balancing low-frequency inverter

I tested the effect of a 9kVA toroid auto-transformer connected to 120/240V split-phase low-frequency inverters. Inverters are SMA Sunny Island 6048-US, four wired series parallel. I also turned off output breakers to test with two wires in series. Imbalanced load was applied with four...
diysolarforum.com diysolarforum.com
 
Aridom82 said:
smart solar 250/100 + 2x 5000va multiplus II + 30kwh eg4 + 12*450 watt solar panels would be 1k+3k+9k+2k = 15k ish, if you spend 600 a month in gas (goddamn), that would be around two years plus change in payback time if you dont count the car.
Now try a 24k three phase system that can take 20kwp of solar and 60kwh of batteries with victron, plus 37x530w solar panels, you might as well buy the damn sun.
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Close, it was like 875 for the scc, I got the multiplus 2s for 2400ish as I recall, they are the us version 120v version, the batteries were 1300 and yea it was around 2k for the panels and then a few hundred on cables, cerbo gx, etc. The grand total was under 15k. I bought all of it last year and it was a self build off grid, so I already got about 3k back in taxes. So my actual out the door cost was about 11k.

Yea, gas has been sitting around $5/gal for the past 2 years and I was driving around 100 miles a day at about 18 mpg. So I was spending 75-85 every 3 days x7 worked out to around $600/month. My tesla payment and initial electric bill difference prior to the solar was around $400/mo.
 
For the first thing i really don't want to spend the money to upgrade to Victron even though i want it. But the possibly more important reason is that I dont want to spend the silly amount of time i will spend playing with all the possibilities that the Victron interfaces give you. Like, i love it, i want it, it's a rabbit hole that fits my personality perfectly i would end up with a beautifully interconnected and automated and 'tuned-in' thing that nobody but myself and some people on this forum would be able to appreciate.. but that's also why i should leave it alone for the time being when i'm still coming down from having mentally overbooked myself for a few years running.

But yeah, blue stuff is in my future. When i have headspace to take advantage of all the coolness. :)
 
Hedges said:
120/240 high-leg delta 3-phase would have one leg that could cook some stuff.
I hope nobody ever wires a leg of 277/480 to a 120V outlet.
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Oh they did. Blessfully we discovered by blowing up surge protectors setting up the cubes. A handful of people were there on laptops, before the space officially opened. The Lenovo power bricks did not seem to mind. Once I put the fluke on an outlet, I told them it would be wise none-the-less to unplug until we got it corrected. I did tell my tech he was full of it when he said the power strips were exploding when they plugged them in and turned them on. (Crawling under desk, clik, KA-POW, bang head on underside of desktop, owww, ummm, okay then . . .).

Your graphs and charts are interesting. Wading in a little deep but that's what makes it fun! 3-phase is wierd. Not as wierd as the 400HZ stuff we used to use in the military. Being able to bring 3 times the current with twice the wires is a nice trick.
 
Vigo said:
For the first thing i really don't want to spend the money to upgrade to Victron even though i want it. But the possibly more important reason is that I dont want to spend the silly amount of time i will spend playing with all the possibilities that the Victron interfaces give you. Like, i love it, i want it, it's a rabbit hole that fits my personality perfectly i would end up with a beautifully interconnected and automated and 'tuned-in' thing that nobody but myself and some people on this forum would be able to appreciate.. but that's also why i should leave it alone for the time being when i'm still coming down from having mentally overbooked myself for a few years running.

But yeah, blue stuff is in my future. When i have headspace to take advantage of all the coolness. :)
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I feel you! LOL
 
I probably couldn't get any more Blue in the face if I held my breath. Between Victron and Blue Sea Systems the setup in my RV is very blue. But I did draw the line on batteries and built my own instead of buying Victron LiFePO4.

While Victron has a lot of bells and whistles and can be configured in very detailed ways, it has been pretty much set it and forget it for me.
 
ksmithaz1 said:
Reliability is important to a point. One of the questions you have to ask is: Is it reliable enough and inexpensive enough, that I can just buy a spare and leave it sitting there if it croaks? How painful is it to swap it in if it does? Is something better and less expensive going to be available by the time it dies? YMMV
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This is a good point, and especially true when in the midst of a rapidly-evolving technological innovation phase.

I came very close to pulling the trigger on a Multiplus II but then opted instead to spend less than 1/3 the amount on a pair of GTIL inverters which are certain to poop out before a Multiplus II would have (and also offer far less capability), but by that time, there will likely be a much richer set of offerings that surpass the capability of a Multiplus II or at least come closer to matching it while costing a fraction.

For RVs and boats (as well as possibly remote cabins in jurisdictions allowing you to do whatever you want for off-grid power), there is no better option for ‘price is no object’ solar power.

But for US-based split-phase solar power installations in jurisdictions requiring all the latest ESS and solar standards, this has never been a priority for Victron (and I doubt it ever will be).
 
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