Victron is Over-priced Eurotrash. Why would anybody buy Victron over an AiO?

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Don't really have a dog in this hunt, as I have Magnum 4024 (LF) that is past it's 5-yr warranty, and still going strong. I DO have to ponder what I'll be replacing it with, if and when it (possibly) breaks. Don't know if it'll be Victron ... leaning towards Midnite.

Have a MidNite Classic 150 MPPT, and the whole thing is prewired with the Magnum. In reviewing the MidNite website (docs, warranty, etc.), it is impressive that MidNite has their own (HF) inverters, with upwards of a 5, 7, or 10-yr warranty. For a measly $150 service fee, you can send your unit back in towards the end of the warranty, and they'll replace all "wearable" parts; it's lightweight, so may not incur shipping penalties. Quite a warranty for an HF unit.

So, while I'm experimenting with other's AIO's (and fully expect to replace, not warranty/repair these), and have zero problem with my Magnum, I absolutely love the MidNite Classic MPPT, and now that they also have a complete pre-wired system (inverter, e-panel, mppt), it's like an AIO without the poor quality, and it's made/supported in the USA, and you can refurbish it at the last second, before the 10-year warranty expires.

I might price out something similar with Victron (and yes, their WiringUnlimited book is great) but unless there is a Victron "firstborn" or "arm & leg" option, it'll probably be MidNite.

If I had a 40' blue-ocean catamaran, then no doubt ... Victron would be thrown into the total package cost *as an option* by the boat dealer, along with new leather seats ... I would've rummaged in my couch crevices for the money, and paid it without blinking ...

<my wife slaps me back into reality>

 

[ksmithaz1]

Who makes a reliable low frequency all in one?
I haven’t found one. So for low frequency one is essentially forced to go component system

There are continuous comparisons to solark and luxpower but they aren’t close to similar in design either.

I looked at this as well. I agree a LF inverter would be preferred, but the EG4/Lux has demonstrated it is capable of handling extreme surges without falling over, as well as a neutral leg disparity of >60A (The video show something like 16A on one leg and 70 on the other). I'm guessing the Sol-Ark performs admirably as well. The last firmware update I got mitigates the flicker issues to the point where they are not really that annoying, it does nick the TV screen once an a while, it's behind a UPS, so the flicker is shorter than a non-line interactive UPS (TODO/TOREPLACE). At one point in my journey, I found a 100A dry transformer for under $2K, I was going to try it, it should actually accomplish something similar to an LF, basically you can set it up for pure isolation, and it should help smooth surges. I really can't justify it the way everything is working. It's also bulky and heavy as sh*t.

I'm still a little fuzzy on what low-frequency and high-frequency mean in practice. I think low basically means continuous inversion from battery thru a transformer which is much more inefficient. High dumps the power from whatever the source to an inversion circuit that is controlled by continuous sampling, and adjusting based on that high frequency of samples, without suffering multiple conversion losses. If I'm way off someone please clarify/enlighten.

I find it likely that the current crop of AIO's will be dated in 5 years and that later technology products will likely solve some of the HF issues with trickery and cunning. I have been wrong before, it will be an interesting ride.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Perhaps another way to look at LF & HF inverters, beyond what types of loads (the old comparison between the two) it can easily handle is ... warranty:

- If an HF inverter at only 1- or 2-yrs of warranty, it's not up to snuff for loads; needs more research as to what types of loads it could handle, and for how long, and probably needs a replacement strategy (it will be killed faster by your loads)
- If an LF inverter at 3- to 5-yrs or more, it's up to snuff for loads; can probably run anything you throw at it (motors & such) within its watt rating, for more years.

The MidNite "rosie" inverter seems to be blurring the lines. It's an HF inverter, but handles large loads like an LF inverter, has longer warranties like an LF, has low-idle watts like an LF, weighs in like an HF ...

Again, if you get a "pre-wired" system (MidNite Rosie w/ HF inverter, charger, e-panel, mppt), it'll be component-like internally, but goes up on the wall like an AIO ... at 5- to 10-years of warranty, that's got to indicate some reliability, and with their made in the usa and their customer support behind it ... I don't think the china-brand of HF's can match all these characteristics.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Sounds pricey, but also sounds like a pretty specific edge case that would be big time overkill for the vast majority of people. Under what conditions do you foresee needing 24,000W continuous?

I didn’t see anything about anyone needing 24,000w continuous.

I saw 24kw mentioned in post 4.
I figured he might’ve meant 24kwh.

But does 24kw mean it has to be continuous, or am I missing something?

 

[Hedges]

Try to build a 24kw victron system that will pay for itself in your lifetime.

I didn’t see anything about anyone needing 24,000w continuous.

I saw 24kw mentioned in post 4.
I figured he might’ve meant 24kwh.

But does 24kw mean it has to be continuous, or am I missing something?

I have 23 kW (continuous from battery at 25C) SMA plus a bunch more kW AC coupled from PV.
Also a 3-phase system.
I think 11.5 kW continuous would have been sufficient for the house when I'm running off-grid, but I wanted more amps pass-through when on-grid.
24kW means never having to apologize.

I've had them in Red, Blue, Grey, Yellow.

Support is slow, but it does happen.
Warranty 20 years ago was 5 year, now 10 and 20 year either standard or available.

 

[ChrisG]

I briefly had a "100A" Victron Autotransformer. I returned it,

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Sounds pricey, but also sounds like a pretty specific edge case that would be big time overkill for the vast majority of people. Under what conditions do you foresee needing 24,000W continuous?

You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there !

 

[Hedges]

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

Based on his use of quotations "100A", I'm going to go out on a limb and say he thought it was a 100A auto-transformer. It is a 28A auto-transformer, able to handle 32A briefly. It has 100A relay to pass through L1 and L2.

Anybody got a scope and current probe or CT, who could show us the idle current waveform that transformer draws? I'm curious about the characteristics of transformers sold for use with inverters.

 

[ksmithaz1]

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

240v to create a neutral for split phase. It did work, it just wasn't even. Had the cheapo 240v inverters held up I would have probably run with it, at least for a while. I had to re-engineer the room on the fly, and I don't like how it ended up. I'll probably build an outbuilding with block to house it all at some point.

 

[Hedges]

240v to create a neutral for split phase. It did work, it just wasn't even.

Was that with balanced 120V current draw, or if not, how much current imbalance?

 

[SilverbackMP]

Try to build a 24kw victron system that will pay for itself in your lifetime.

A couple hundred thousand that it would cost to get me grid power pays for a hell of a lot Victron or other tier one.

 

[cs1234]

A couple hundred thousand that it would cost to get me grid power pays for a hell of a lot Victron or other tier one.

Must be nice out there in the middle of nowhere. ?

 

[Brett V]

Plug and what? Are we talking about victron here?

In the context of no pissing around with getting it to work, you can buy their stuff and it all works together as intended out of the box.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Based on his use of quotations "100A", I'm going to go out on a limb and say he thought it was a 100A auto-transformer. It is a 28A auto-transformer, able to handle 32A briefly. It has 100A relay to pass through L1 and L2.

Correct, and no I did not think it was a 100A transformer, it is an 'autotransformer' with a 30A winding to provide 120v/30A to either side of a neutral. My 110v loads never exceed 20A, so it was actually perfect for the application. It did not however provide 120v/120v. I looked it up on the pictures after my last post. It 116v/124v, an 8 volt spread. The only way I can see that happening is if the winding is bad. Unlike a dry transformer it does not have multiple taps. One of the application wiring diagrams shared a neutral with the input, perhaps this would somehow fix the disparity. I don't really know because I was unable to get any support for the thing to find out it's quirks. I'm quite familiar with a dry transformer with which I could do something similar but would actually handle 120v@200a or any combination of 240/120 that did not exceed 24KW (for any length of time). I just was avoiding putting one of those 400lb monstrosities somewhere. I think the dry transformers are like 95% efficient.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Must be nice out there in the middle of nowhere. ?

It’s really not that far out in the sticks but it’s a mile to the nearest active line. I would have to go along row crop ground in some parts (jacking up the the turning radius of big green machines) and clear old fence rows in other spots. And it’s at the corner of the area claimed by two coops and a regular utility company (Ameren) and none seem too enthusiastic.

 

[1201]

In the context of no pissing around with getting it to work, you can buy their stuff and it all works together as intended out of the 28 different boxes necessary.

Fixed it for ya ?

 

[webbbn]

You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there !

I have a quad-zoned dual AC system in Tucson, and both my ACs combined "only" take 8kW. My vue, which I installed all of 2-3 weeks ago shows a peak usage of 16.1kW, which was likely when my ACs both ran along with my EV charger, which is a situation that I plan to alleviate through scheduling. I'm also connected through grid, so I don't plan to worry about peak usage.

In fact, I haven't pulled the trigger on any hardware yet, but one thing (other than Mr. Bluenose) that keeps drawing me back to Victron is all the ways it can deal with various demands and limits by combining all the various sources. That also allows me to build a smaller system that can meet more average requirements without stressing over what happens if everything actually does kick on at once.

I should also add that, if I were completely off grid, I would be more concerned about reliability and less about payback time.

 

[SilverbackMP]

I think SMA with SB and SI gets closest to a low frequency AIO; but it requires specific BMS units to talk to it. Or that yet to be proven EG4 box.

And that’s with 20 year old tech in regards to an interface.

 

[Brett V]

Fixed it for ya ?

You have to admire the business model…$$$

 

[SilverbackMP]

You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there !

Exactly. 24 kw is equivalent to a 100 amp service. Many larger homes or folks with shops have 200 amp.

My 4x Sunny Island setup should be just enough to run my mom’s house (gas and wood heat) and my shop (gas heat) when powering wood or metal working equipment without turning off a dozen other things.

Start powering multiple mini splits, multiple freezer and refrigerators, and then start using a 30 Amp plasma cutter and 5 hp air compressor, and that wattage and amps will start being sucked up.

I will install another 4x Sunny Island setup when I build my house.

Can one live off grid with much less? Absolutely. Do I care to? Absolutely not. I want a hot tub and a pool. And plenty of other modern conveniences. I have slept on top of Humvees, on the ground, on cots, in sea cans (aka conexes), and in tiny Korean apartments. I want some damned luxuries, including in the event of civilization collapse. Lol.