Where is @Will Prowse?

[Will Prowse]

I think this certification program would prove more useful than memorizing the NEC or being an electrician. Low voltage DC is different and needs to be understood thoroughly.

https://abycinc.org/page/Certifications

 

[Will Prowse]

Does your system have Rapid Shutdown per NEC 2017? It would be interesting to see what is required to make that work with your EG4 setup. I think you need both the TS4 on the panel AND a pair of DC contactors at the inverter to de-energize the wires. The inverters are not equipped with the contractor or a breaker, like the Sol-Ark is.

I have a PV voltage DC rated breaker in an enclosure for disconnect. Mounted to non combustible material. Works well, but not necessary. Just nice to turn off mppt that way to reduce fan noise in shop when I am filming.

 

[cs1234]

Still trying to find someone to sell ballast ground mount system, but no one has come to market yet.

My panels are on the ground so the fire safety codes don't apply. I have them secured with a stainless steel cable. Very easy to swap panels out for testing. The insulation of PV wire is thick, and my wires are on concrete, so it is good to go.

I personally want to stick to Offgrid lifepo4 systems. I just don't care about grid tie, and there's thousands of companies installing it now for cheap. Not very diy friendly with the permits either.

I'm with you on the sticking to offgrid lifepo4 systems. Use the grid to charge the batteries maybe, otherwise keep it separate.

I hadn't thought of securing them with a stainless steel cable, I like it, wouldn't meet any type of ground mount code requirement, but if anchored securely it would probably make for a nice kite that even Thomas Edison would be proud of!

Have you considered something like this for ballasted mount? Super easy to install, keeps them low to the ground, I want to try some, but I'm too lazy to order anything off a website other than Amazon.

Bucket full of rocks that supposedly passes code inspections

 

[JoeHam]

Have you considered something like this for ballasted mount? Super easy to install, keeps them low to the ground, I want to try some, but I'm too lazy to order anything off a website other than Amazon.

Bucket full of rocks that supposedly passes code inspections

I saw something similar at San Tan Solar a while back but I think it was filled with water.

Almost as easy to come by as rocks. ?

 

[ncsolarelectric]

Tesla solar installed my grid tie system. I do not like installing panels, especially with the health issues I have with my feet from when I was disabled. I would love to build ground mount arrays but I don't have room on my property. Still trying to find someone to sell ballast ground mount system, but no one has come to market yet.

My panels are on the ground so the fire safety codes don't apply. I have them secured with a stainless steel cable. Very easy to swap panels out for testing. The insulation of PV wire is thick, and my wires are on concrete, so it is good to go.

I personally want to stick to Offgrid lifepo4 systems. I just don't care about grid tie, and there's thousands of companies installing it now for cheap. Not very diy friendly with the permits either.

And I prefer independence from the grid.

Low voltage DC seems not to be covered much (if at all) in NEC. Pretty unfortunate. I was expecting something that could help me design my systems. Not really. Just a bunch of ac wiring configurations for various applications and environments. Not sure why people reference it when it serves little use in large battery systems being charged with solar. Even the grounding recommendations for mobile systems is non existent.

Typically I use marine low voltage DC recommendations, such as ABYC. It is a million times more useful than NEC.

I have a ballasted ground mount. I used a Unirac RM10 ballasted roof mount on the ground. It works well, but the panels need to be blown off or washed after I mow the lawn because it's low to the ground.

I also have an idea for a taller ballasted ground mount using 6-ft long, 250-lb, concrete parking curbs. They are $35 each. Set them about 4-ft apart and use an IronRidge Tilt-leg kit and the XR100 rails. The tilt-legs can be bolted directly to the parking curb through the existing rebar holes. It takes 9 parking stops, 9 tilt-leg kits, and 4 x 17-ft rails to mount 10 panels at around 20-deg tilt. This is what I'll be doing for my next one. I estimate it to be right around $100/panel, which is cheap for a ground mount.

 

[cs1234]

@ncsolarelectric I like your ground mount system and have considered it, but they aren't as cute as a plastic bucket full of rocks.

Couldn't you raise your existing ground mount system by just setting them on top of the parking curbs you mention, to solve/reduce the mowing problem?

I do like your idea of securing the tilt leg kits to parking curb, but I don't think that will pass inspection the same way that the buckets might. The buckets are supposedly a structurally approved item already approved for solar use without any modification needed. Your curbs would be sturdy as heck, and certainly aren't going anywhere, but they might demand some sort of site structural audit/study to determine whether a tornado or hurricane would get them or not.

Things like inspections and site studies are entirely up to your area though, they might be nice as pie where you are (might not even require them), and mean jackals where I am.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

@ncsolarelectric I like your ground mount system and have considered it, but they aren't as cute as a plastic bucket full of rocks.

Couldn't you raise your existing ground mount system by just setting them on top of the parking curbs you mention, to solve/reduce the mowing problem?

I do like your idea of securing the tilt leg kits to parking curb, but I don't think that will pass inspection the same way that the buckets might. The buckets are supposedly a structurally approved item already approved for solar use without any modification needed. Your curbs would be sturdy as heck, and certainly aren't going anywhere, but they might demand some sort of site structural audit/study to determine whether a tornado or hurricane would get them or not.

Things like inspections and site studies are entirely up to your area though, they might be nice as pie where you are (might not even require them), and mean jackals where I am.

I have considered building a pier of cinder blocks under each rack to lift them up 12", but the wife said it it's an eyesore. So I'm trying to come up with a more attractive and functional ground mount without digging footings.

Regarding structure, I can do what I want on my property in NC as long as I get the permit. I can get all the uplift and downforce calculations from IronRidge, to show that the uplift forces are only 750lbs and my ballast is over 2000 lbs. I don't see why an S.E. wouldn't approve it. I've done numerous ballasted systems like this on landfills, with much larger racks of panels. Again, IronRidge can provide all the calculations and I'm sure if I want to, I can pay their engineer to stamp it if my county required it, but they don't.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I saw this one on Youtube, and I really like it. It's the same racking as I mentioned for the Parking curbs but he used footings and 4x6s. I think it looks great though, but I wouldn't want to dig all those holes or mix the concrete.

 

[cs1234]

I have considered building a pier of cinder blocks under each rack to lift them up 12", but the wife said it it's an eyesore. So I'm trying to come up with a more attractive and functional ground mount without digging footings.

Regarding structure, I can do what I want on my property in NC as long as I get the permit. I can get all the uplift and downforce calculations from IronRidge, to show that the uplift forces are only 750lbs and my ballast is over 2000 lbs. I don't see why an S.E. wouldn't approve it. I've done numerous ballasted systems like this on landfills, with much larger racks of panels. Again, IronRidge can provide all the calculations and I'm sure if I want to, I can pay their engineer to stamp it if my county required it, but they don't.

Can't say I disagree with her, but I love eyesores. My wife buys all kinds of cute items to decorate the house with. I buy cables and electronics to collect dust bunnies.

If the permits can be done fast and pretty much rubber stamped, that's what I'm looking for. I want something out of the box ready to go super fast and easy with minimal time spent on paperwork on the government permitting end. Doesn't get much simpler than filling a bucket full of rocks.

Unfortunately residential customers are extremely price sensitive, especially with how things are going now, they need some sort of solar by the panel kit that allows for starting cheap and building up as you go.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

That's why I recommend microinverters.

 

[73powerstroke]

I saw something similar at San Tan Solar a while back but I think it was filled with water.

Almost as easy to come by as rocks. ?

They have them in the show room . They aren't listed on the site but I asked and they are like $80 each.

 

[Shimmy]

I personally want to stick to Offgrid lifepo4 systems. I just don't care about grid tie, and there's thousands of companies installing it now for cheap. Not very diy friendly with the permits either.

Personally, I think that is a shame, but it is important to do the things that interest you. For me, I got quotes that were absurd for a grid-tied battery system to supplement my existing PV. Tesla was still high, but livable... but they won't work on my roof. As the alternatives aren't economically justifiable, I need to figure out what allI can do effectively either by myself, with an electrician, or with a solar installer.

It might be out there and I just haven't seen it, but judging by the forum it seems like there are a lot of people that really need help with the basics: system sizing and its gotchas, energy savings projects, and load monitoring. A lot of people also seem to need help in undertanding how to watch their system once it is installed and nominally operational.

It also might not be quite your thing, but showing people how to use their solar electricity for the best environmental gain and/or to minimize their electrical costs. Things like self-consumption during the day, waiting until after 8PM to charge your car, run the dishwasher, whatever.

Low voltage DC seems not to be covered much (if at all) in NEC. Pretty unfortunate. I was expecting something that could help me design my systems. Not really. Just a bunch of ac wiring configurations for various applications and environments. Not sure why people reference it when it serves little use in large battery systems being charged with solar. Even the grounding recommendations for mobile systems is non existent.

Let me turn that around on you... why isn't low voltage DC not covered well? Why is vehicle mobile system grounding not covered? NEC isn't a design guide, and that is what a lot of people really need.

(On vehicle grounding, there will likely be a bigger push for a code/standard for RVs as the power systems become more meaningful in size. Why is that necessary?

Also, a lot of people struggle to follow the NEC if they aren't familiar with how code books work. It ends up creating a bunch of folklore code requirements.

For what it is worth, my opinion is that you should do two things:

1. Do weekly videos that are intended to be temporal-- time series vs archival. Give people something to look at *today* vs needing to search out content. Use those videos to promote other videos as relevant, which helps build views for the archival content, while at the same time not repeating a lot of detail.
2. Do some periodic "epic" videos that are a bit more of a production-- things like comparing 5-6 different products, or really going into detail on a system and its ins-and-outs, maybe even critiquing DIY projects.

 

[cs1234]

That's why I recommend microinverters.

Microinverters do have a beautiful lego stacking simplicity to them. What they lack for easy low cost adoption is some sort of simple governmental approved easy connect port that consumers can use to add them to their house in a daisy chain or set number of expansions fashion. They also need some sort of device that's already installed to easily accomplish zero export to get rid of utility provider resistance / delays.

A system for adding single ground mounted panels on a bucket of rocks or sealed water tank should be able to be created that is almost as easy as plugging an extension cord into a power strip (after the receptacles for doing so are installed by an electrician to the existing main breaker). The problems are almost entirely regulatory, we have the technologies to do it at a relatively low cost.

We let people run around with propane tanks, 5 gallon gas cans, huge bottles of lighter fluid, solar generators, fireworks, unlimited amounts of guns/ammo, chainsaws, trampolines!!, but for some reason an easy method for quickly connecting solar panels is beyond our reach because it's too dangerous? I call BS.

 

[cs1234]

They have them in the show room . They aren't listed on the site but I asked and they are like $80 each.

They would clearly cost much less if they were made in greater number. Being a plastic bucket you fill with rocks.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

Anything under 42 VDC and less than 1kWh of Energy storage are considered S.E.L.V. or Safety Extra Low Voltage. So 12V to 36V DC systems are not covered by NEC unless you go over 1kWh of energy storage when NEC 2020 takes effect in your area. NEC for grounding and bonding applies to all conductive parts, regardless of the voltage.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

They would clearly cost much less if they were made in greater number. Being a plastic bucket you fill with rocks.

What keeps them from filling with water and breading mosquitos? Rocks won't stop it if there are no holes to let the water out.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

Microinverters do have a beautiful lego stacking simplicity to them. What they lack for easy low cost adoption is some sort of simple governmental approved easy connect port that consumers can use to add them to their house in a daisy chain or set number of expansions fashion. They also need some sort of device that's already installed to easily accomplish zero export to get rid of utility provider resistance / delays.

A system for adding single ground mounted panels on a bucket of rocks or sealed water tank should be able to be created that is almost as easy as plugging an extension cord into a power strip (after the receptacles for doing so are installed by an electrician to the existing main breaker). The problems are almost entirely regulatory, we have the technologies to do it at a relatively low cost.

We let people run around with propane tanks, 5 gallon gas cans, huge bottles of lighter fluid, solar generators, fireworks, unlimited amounts of guns/ammo, chainsaws, trampolines!!, but for some reason an easy method for quickly connecting solar panels is beyond our reach because it's too dangerous? I call BS.

To install my Hoymiles microinverters, all I need is a fused AC Disconnect switch and a line-side tap connection to the meter panel. It's like a 1-hour job for an electrician that coordinates the shutdown with the utility. Once the switch is installed, I would just need to connect the output of my microinverter sub-panel (AC combiner) to the switch. Done!

Solar panels, a bucket of rocks, plug-n-play microinverters, a combiner panel, and a switch? It can't get much easier than that, honestly!

 

[cs1234]

What keeps them from filling with water and breading mosquitos? Rocks won't stop it if there are no holes to let the water out.

It has holes to let water out, or at least it says it does in the product spec sheet somewhere. Maybe it was in the FAQ.

 

[cs1234]

Anything under 42 VDC and less than 1kWh of Energy storage are considered S.E.L.V. or Safety Extra Low Voltage. So 12V to 36V DC systems are not covered by NEC unless you go over 1kWh of energy storage when NEC 2020 takes effect in your area. NEC for grounding and bonding applies to all conductive parts, regardless of the voltage.

Yeah, the problem for low voltage DC from solar comes with rules regarding actual solar panels themselves. In most major cities / large population counties, they can't be installed permanently without a permit and approval, regardless of whether they stay strictly low voltage DC or not. And once they are supplying AC, and not DC, then that part of it would need to be inspected and permitted as a new circuit or whatnot.

1kWH is way too low to be worth anything, and frankly kind of insulting. A big car battery could have that in spec sheet terms.

 

[Shimmy]

What they lack for easy low cost adoption is some sort of simple governmental approved easy connect port that consumers can use to add them to their house in a daisy chain or set number of expansions fashion.

This is hard to allow the way US wiring is done. You could do it if the electrical meter could communicate with the microinverters, but you still need to make sure they are connected in a place where they won't overload any wiring.

As for comparing solar to other hazards that we tolerate, it would likely be much easier to do if equipment was more standardized and had better "inherent safety" measures.