Electric Companies slowly taking back control

[12VoltInstalls]

The thing that stuck out to me was the $240 per year extra that non-producers have to pay over solar producers. It was included that this wasn’t “fair.”

It’s unclear to me why that isn’t fair.

The people who pay $20/month more for electricity have no money invested in their electricity production. So the people who have invested money into producing solar are getting quite minimal returns on their investments based on those numbers alone.

So if I heard that right: at $0.25/kWh the average rooftop producer is making barely 3kWh/day of excess power. I don’t have an ethical problem with that. I’d probably add a few panels Lol

 

[Noneyabussiness]

I think it pertinent to point out why this is the case though as the way electricity is billed varies around the world.

In Australia our grid home electrical energy bills have two main components:
- a daily fee for service connection and
- a per kWh tariff.
Some have flat rate tariffs, others time of use tariffs. There are occasionally peak demand charges as well but we can leave them aside for the time being as they are less common and are pretty much just another form of time of use billing.

The market is serviced by three distinct levels of service:
- generators supplying the energy to the national grid via contract and the wholesale electricity market
- distribution companies (heavily regulated regional monopolies) who own the poles and wires and are responsible for the network
- retailers who bill the end customer and who purchase energy from the generators and pay the distributors for their customer's access to the network

Generators may retail energy but distributors are prohibited from generating or retailing.

The costs included in the retailer per kWh tariffs comprise several components, but by far the largest component is made up of the charges the retailer incurs and passes on levied by the poles and wires distribution companies. The actual wholesale generation cost of electricity is a minor component of that tariff. It is the network and distribution costs which are the biggest component of our retail electricity cost - about 2/3rds of the retail tariff is made up of distribution/network costs.

Now in Australia the the distribution and network charges only are levied by distributors on the flow of energy from the grid to your home, but they are not levied on energy flowing from your home to the grid. Hence the value of energy exported to the grid is really only its wholesale value, plus any carbon offset value.

This is the primary reason why our retail import tariffs and export tariffs have such a large difference. It was distorted somewhat in the past decade or so as various state governments offered additional incentives for export by the way of premium FITs (feed-in-tariffs), which have all but disappeared now. And in the last few years the strong rise in grid scale and rooftop renewable energy supply has meant the wholesale cost of daytime energy has plummeted.

Fact is the value of energy supply in the middle of the day is pretty low and as a result the amount retailers are going to pay for taking excess rooftop solar is relatively low.

Despite that, average FITs are actually still a bit higher than wholesale value of the energy, so while they seem low, they are still better than wholesale.

the problem with all you wrote, as much as its true, is the system has been around for decades, they still making Billions off of 60 year old lines in most areas... the " fees " for say " meter charge " as example is a archaic charge from when meter readers used to come out, yet in most areas they use " smart " meters with 4g , no more meter readers yet we are still paying for them ( example).. as much as they try to justify the ever increasing cost , it all comes down to profit margins, for a basic service it is dismal ...

 

[Noneyabussiness]

also, the point of others suggesting " just add more panels" , again here in Australia, rooftop solar connected to the grid is INCREDIBLY over-regulated, you are not allowed to add more than they regulate, eg. most places its 5KW feed in max, because the " system can't handle anymore " ... BS... , also if ANY part of the system fails, most cases the ENTIRE system has to be replaced, unless you are lucky enough your system is still " the current one approved "... LOL, most times that doesn't happen, like just recently the removed a heap of panels off the cec approval list because they " need 8 earthing holes, these only had 6 " , nothing wrong with them, were previously approved etc.. just BS ...

 

[Kornbread]

Our small elec coop has decent rates; $.10kwh, but they are not that fond of 'member generators'. First come, first serve as far as getting a meter capable of net metering, and they will not tell you how many new meters they have available, or the total number of 'member generators' they will approve. Any energy put back into the grid counts as a credit (based on wholesale rate) and deducted from monthly bill. They will "never" pay you for electricity, and the monthly bill will "never" be $0. They are fees for having service, and others I forget, but basically, it will cost around ~$50 month if I use 0 kwh. Anything hooked to the gird must first be approved by a certified electrician, and an inspector from the coop. I can only assume when they say anything, that includes systems that do not feed energy back into the grid.

Funny thing, we have a lot of unexpected power outages. It would be most economical for us to simply install a generator, but hey, I'd like to go the lesser evil route of solar, not to mention quieter route, but it's going to be $expensive$.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

solar connected to the grid is INCREDIBLY over-regulated, you are not allowed to add more than they regulate, eg. most places its 5KW feed in max, because the " system can't handle anymore "

This is disconcerting

I’m not one to advocate government control as I think that ‘the natural price of things’ is better control for both the consumer and the, um, entity.

not that fond of 'member generators'

Here in Vermont I was frustrated when they decommissioned Vermont Yankee.
In a news story covering the electrical needs in Vermont not long afterward they brought up solar as a part solution. Then interviewed ceo of a Vermont powerco stated in essence that they couldn’t afford to support net metering or excess solar production with payback because they wouldn’t achieve their profit expectations. And of course Vermont then contracted with hydro quebec for primary grid.

So either way: on the consumer side, people pay more; on the powerco side they make a markup. Except that locally produced power benefits in-state consumers that in theory have more discretionary income to spend in the local economy.

Again, I’m not into government control except that in this case they already artificially control prices since the Public Utilities Commission or whatever it is called in other states has to get approval for rate hikes… but I can’t see why ‘we’ can’t legislate away powercos and run the state grid. That potentially could return the profit component to more solar, not less. (Meanwhile the voice in my head is reminding me the government is the least efficient means of handling money or managing services.)

It’s not just a California issue.

 

[Wibla]

This is a typical "fuck you, got mine" from the grid operators to the people they're supposedly there to serve in the best (and most efficient) fashion.

Quelle surprise.

 

[Austint]

As one of your fellow diy Solar enthusiasts and as an engineer for a power utility let me share my thoughts .First if your home is connected to the grid , the utility must be able to supply the rating of your service whether you have solar / batteries or not . All of the traditional generation/ transmission lines power transformers distribution system and distribution transformers must be in place and ready for your loads . This infrastructure also includes all of the personnel to keep it going . With roof top solar on your home the utility cannot reduce any of this cost or infrastructure. The utility should not pay the same costs to buy back rooftop solar because currently it is not as dependable as the generation in place . And they cannot depend on it . How many of us Solar enthusiasts can depend on it without a backup source . For some of us the backup source is the grid , for others it’s a home generator . I hope someday we get there but as for me I’m not going to be pulling my meter until I have something in place that is dependable.

 

[Kornbread]

Capitalism; markets deemed essential often become regulated by the government, while other markets are left to economic drivers.

Yeah, I don't have a beef with the utility only paying 'credits' at wholesale against my bill, but I do frown at giving them utmost authority over my private property. I understand the safety factor for their line workers, but if I do not feed the grid in any way, and am only a consumer, they should not have such authority over my property. It's going to make our PV system cost a lot more money that necessary.

FWIW, we live in the very Southern portion of Missouri (missed the recent December Mayfeld tornadoes by ~30 miles) and our elec coop buys most of their electricity from Oklahoma. That must take thousands of miles of wire and towers to transport electricity such a distance.

 

[Hedges]

The utility can't supply the rating of your service.
That's why we get power failures some hot days.
The utility didn't build out enough power plants to supply peak demand.
But power available to them is much higher thanks to our rooftop solar.
Could be even more in the future, if punitive terms (like zero net credit for export) are not implemented.

What do you think the "Duck's Back" curve would look like if we didn't have PV?

 

[Kornbread]

Austint is right. Hydro, coal, nuclear, natural gas, whatever ... we must have dependable baseload power generation, and a reliable network, to keep the country running.

 

[Austint]

Austint is right. Hydro, coal, nuclear, natural gas, whatever ... we must have dependable baseload power generation, and a reliable network, to keep the country

Unfortunately our base load generation is being dismantled with no substitutes in place in addition in the west the drought threatens some of our hydro sources that are critical for frequency regulation

 

[Austint]

The utility can't supply the rating of your service.
That's why we get power failures some hot days.
The utility didn't build out enough power plants to supply peak demand.
But power available to them is much higher thanks to our rooftop solar.
Could be even more in the future, if punitive terms (like zero net credit for export) are not implemented.

What do you think the "Duck's Back" curve would look like if we didn't have PV?

I’m sorry but how much new generation do you think is being permitted ? In addition existing plants are being taken offline at an unprecedented rate , I watch a 800 MW plant go by my home one truck load at a time on its way to scrap .

 

[Kornbread]

Unfortunately our base load generation is being dismantled with no substitutes in place in addition in the west the drought threatens some of our hydro sources that are critical for frequency regulation

Hydro plants are being dismantled in the name of green (mixed in with renewables @20%). Coal plants (@20%) are being dismantled in the name of green. Has a new nuclear (@20%) plant been commissioned in a while? (I will not support nuclear until we can safely dispose of a very long term waste problem) IIRC, natural gas (@40%) generators are being built but these are also a 'non-green' alternative.

Maybe elsewhere, but around here, the electrical infrastructure, as a whole, is ageing and not being upgraded. Baseload power generation is what keeps the lights on when the sun isn't shining, and the wind isn't blowing.

If it were not for the Colorado river basin, would the western U.S. be what it is today?

I digress ... wouldn't it be nice if battery technology advanced and the price dropped enough all of us could go solar and be done with all this mess?

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

 

[wattmatters]

What is NOT fair, is both having a connection fee, and not paying a fair price for the power you sell them.

Define what is fair.

In Australia fair price for energy supplied to the grid would be the wholesale price for the interval it is supplied. At times that price is negative.

 

[Austint]

I digress ... wouldn't it be nice if battery technology advanced and the price dropped enough all of us could go solar and be done with all this mess?

I agree it will be great minds like those on these forums that will figure it out

 

[Wibla]

(I will not support nuclear until we can safely dispose of a very long term waste problem)

Please be aware that nuclear waste is a much easier engineering problem to deal with than excess CO2 in the atmosphere is, and nuclear waste is less likely to kill people than the current effects of global climate change. US legislation is purpose-made to make sane handling of nuclear waste nearly impossible, in turn driving costs (and risks!) up. Not to derail the discussion, I just wanted to point that out.

People are throwing LCOE around a lot in favor of solar/wind without realising that it doesn't take into account the needed backup generation capacity, thus skewing the numbers a lot. The current situation in Europe is a good example of what happens when you shut down too much nuclear generation capacity and then run into a (predictable, if you pay attention to geopolitics) supply-side problem for fossil fuels.

It's entirely fair that subscribers pay their fair share of grid maintenance, but the way things are going in the US, utilities are trying to penalize solar because it's threatening their profit margins. That's messed up.

 

[wattmatters]

[deleted off-topic political commentary]

Any chance we can keep the political conspiracy stuff out of this part of the forum? Head over the the chit chat session for that.

 

[wattmatters]

PG&E contracts to buy power from large PV producers for $0.10/kWh and pays rooftop consumers $0.025/kWh for surplus at end of year.

I don't know the specifics of how it works there, but keep in mind that a homeowner with grid tied rooftop solar PV who is selling their excess energy into the grid makes no commitment or guarantee to the buyer about how much energy they will supply, nor when it will be supplied. The energy company just takes the excess energy, whatever and whenever that may be and whether or not they actually want or need it. Indeed at times the energy has negative value.

Whereas a grid scale solar farm will be under contract to supply a certain amount of energy at a specific time, be it from their own farm or from other sources if the farm is unable to supply. Any energy excess the farm has available outside of their contractual supply obligations would be supplied via the wholesale market, or curtailed if there is no buyer available at a suitable price.

 

[Dzl]

Any chance we can keep the political conspiracy stuff out of this part of the forum? Head over the the chit chat session for that.

Yes. The rules we all agreed to are quite clear when it comes to political rants / political conspiracy stuff / off topic political discussion. It does not belong on this forum, and its a violation of the rules anywhere other than the chit-chat section.
Interjecting political opinions/rants derails the conversation and degrades the cohesiveness of the community and 99 times out of 100 adds no value and changes no minds. Members who interject their personal politics will be warned, repeat offenders may be suspended or banned.

 

[Cajunwolf]

Hydro plants are being dismantled in the name of green (mixed in with renewables @20%). Coal plants (@20%) are being dismantled in the name of green. Has a new nuclear (@20%) plant been commissioned in a while? (I will not support nuclear until we can safely dispose of a very long term waste problem) IIRC, natural gas (@40%) generators are being built but these are also a 'non-green' alternative.

Maybe elsewhere, but around here, the electrical infrastructure, as a whole, is ageing and not being upgraded. Baseload power generation is what keeps the lights on when the sun isn't shining, and the wind isn't blowing.

If it were not for the Colorado river basin, would the western U.S. be what it is today?

I digress ... wouldn't it be nice if battery technology advanced and the price dropped enough all of us could go solar and be done with all this mess?

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

I like nuclear; with the new advances in technology, the waste is minimal; it can be safely dealt with and is much less dangerous than primitive fire to burning things for energy. Right now, we need everything we can get while pinching off the bad as we replace it with the good. Ever noticed the callouses on our knuckles? It's because they still drag the ground.