Electric Companies slowly taking back control

[Tony Scott]

Eventually grid tiwd will not be the way to go. As the contracts to pay people for electricity come up for renewal people will be switched over to credits or be paid next to nothing for electricity. Do solar because that is what YOU want, not because of making money or some contract scheme that has you paying two electric bills, like Purchase Power Agreements.


CALIFORNIA PG&E only paying 25 cents per kw want's to take it to 6 cents.


Watch "CA Public Utilities Commission Aims To Reduce Rooftop Solar Incentives" on YouTube

 

[Jim Burrow]

Interesting, since I live in California and only 20 miles from walnut creek as seen in this video. However, I am not tied to the grid and only use Utility power after the sun goes down because at the moment, I don't have enough battery power to get me through the night. Hence I am not set up to run my meter backward to sell energy back to the utility company.

Being part of this DIY group, I was able to design and install my own system without going through a solar contractor that is next to robbery to your wallet.

 

[Cajunwolf]

I live in Houston, Texas, and not sure how the solar deal works here; I'm rebuilding an older 28-foot class C RV so I can hit the road. I live in a crappy apartment, and when we lost power for days during a record-breaking winter storm back in February, that was a wake-up call. I was trapped in this foul city, never again. The sun didn't shine, the windmills froze, and they couldn't crank the natural gas system back up, incompetence on a large scale. I had three friends who lived in California; two moved to Texas, Dallas and Austin, and a third to Flordia. My nephew is still stuck in San Francisco. I visited a couple of times years ago, and from what I hear, the politics there have turned it into a dump; what a shame; it was such a beautiful place to live back then. As I see it, the problem is driven by greed and lust for power. You have politicians who promised the sun, moon, and stars to get elected, and now they can't afford to keep them. They have to tax everything any way they can, and that's never enough, and as more people move out, the less revenue they have to waste. The incentives looked great on paper, and what a virtue signal that they want to save the planet, but incompetence sets in because folks vote with their feelings and not their common sense. The grid buys solar from large-scale producers at 0.03 cents per kWh and pays individuals 0.25 cents per kWh, and if everyone produced more than they needed, why have power companies? Oops... wealthy folks and politicians make a lot of money on these big power companies; who saw that one coming.

@Tony Scott, Your right, go to solar because you want to, that and being able to live where I want off-grid is why I do it. In a word, freedom.

 

[Noneyabussiness]

its already here in Australia, we pay on average 25 cents a kwh ( varies place to place) and only get on average 6c kwh feed in... it sucks big time

 

[MurphyGuy]

The first deal:
Here in Michigan, pre 2017, you got paid for the energy you generated at the same rate you had to purchase it at.

The second deal:
From 2016(?) to 2021, the deal changed.. No money changed hands, but if you pump a kWh into the grid, they had to give it back to you whenever you wanted it. Basically, the grid acted as a big battery.

The new deal:
In 2020/2021, they changed our net metering rules again.. Now they sell it to you at retail rates (17 cents/kWh) and buy it back at only wholesale rates (6 cents/kWh).

My net metering contract falls under the second deal and I am grandfathered for 10 years.. Hopefully, at the end of that 10 years, either the net-metering rules will improve again, or energy storage will be cheap enough to just disconnect altogether.

There's a company called Amber Kinetics that makes a 32 kWh flywheel for energy storage.. it is very efficient and has a 30 year design life for about $9500.
This would be an ideal solution for storing solar energy. They've had media releases all over the place, but unfortunately, they do not answer their phones, return messages, answer emails, or in any other way communicate.

 

[wholybee]

I think the misconception that PG&E is (somewhat successfully) selling is that they are offering incentives, that they now just don't feel they should continue. Being able to sell power back to PG&E at the rate you pay or anywhere below is not an incentive. It would only be an incentive if you could sell it at more than what you would pay.

This really needs to be looked at as a very important way to reduce dependance on fossil fuels and an outdated grid-not an incentives program.

 

[Cajunwolf]

I think the misconception that PG&E is (somewhat successfully) selling is that they are offering incentives, that they now just don't feel they should continue. Being able to sell power back to PG&E at the rate you pay or anywhere below is not an incentive. It would only be an incentive if you could sell it at more than what you would pay.

This really needs to be looked at as a very important way to reduce dependance on fossil fuels and an outdated grid-not an incentives program.

Amen! Batteries are finally becoming reasonable, and that was the cost, storage.

 

[wattmatters]

its already here in Australia, we pay on average 25 cents a kwh ( varies place to place) and only get on average 6c kwh feed in... it sucks big time

I think it pertinent to point out why this is the case though as the way electricity is billed varies around the world.

In Australia our grid home electrical energy bills have two main components:
- a daily fee for service connection and
- a per kWh tariff.
Some have flat rate tariffs, others time of use tariffs. There are occasionally peak demand charges as well but we can leave them aside for the time being as they are less common and are pretty much just another form of time of use billing.

The market is serviced by three distinct levels of service:
- generators supplying the energy to the national grid via contract and the wholesale electricity market
- distribution companies (heavily regulated regional monopolies) who own the poles and wires and are responsible for the network
- retailers who bill the end customer and who purchase energy from the generators and pay the distributors for their customer's access to the network

Generators may retail energy but distributors are prohibited from generating or retailing.

The costs included in the retailer per kWh tariffs comprise several components, but by far the largest component is made up of the charges the retailer incurs and passes on levied by the poles and wires distribution companies. The actual wholesale generation cost of electricity is a minor component of that tariff. It is the network and distribution costs which are the biggest component of our retail electricity cost - about 2/3rds of the retail tariff is made up of distribution/network costs.

Now in Australia the the distribution and network charges only are levied by distributors on the flow of energy from the grid to your home, but they are not levied on energy flowing from your home to the grid. Hence the value of energy exported to the grid is really only its wholesale value, plus any carbon offset value.

This is the primary reason why our retail import tariffs and export tariffs have such a large difference. It was distorted somewhat in the past decade or so as various state governments offered additional incentives for export by the way of premium FITs (feed-in-tariffs), which have all but disappeared now. And in the last few years the strong rise in grid scale and rooftop renewable energy supply has meant the wholesale cost of daytime energy has plummeted.

Fact is the value of energy supply in the middle of the day is pretty low and as a result the amount retailers are going to pay for taking excess rooftop solar is relatively low.

Despite that, average FITs are actually still a bit higher than wholesale value of the energy, so while they seem low, they are still better than wholesale.

 

[wholybee]

Amen! Batteries are finally becoming reasonable, and that was the cost, storage.

It's great that batteries are becoming cheaper, but the power system of the future shouldn't depend on every home having batteries. If most homes had solar, the grid would be extremely fault tolerant, and if one home briefly exceeded its generation capacity, solar from nearby homes would supply it. Tie in a nearby wind farm to provide power at night, and there would be only a small need for large scale electricity production, to cover what the wind can't do, or for rare events that solar doesn't cover day usage.

The only "problem" with that, is that it limits the money large corporations can make.

 

[robby]

This whole argument about the Solar owners not paying their share to keep the grid going and the people without solar are having to pay extra to supplement the Grid is a really weak argument. Luckily LIfePO4 batteries are making it possible to just get out completely from their grip. I already can envision that some fairly costly basic connection charges are coming in the future. I bet the problem is that they are trying to figure out how to do that without impacting the bills of people who don't have Solar.
They could do something like a $30 flat fee and you get the first xxx KWh of electricity for free. The problem is that people on Solar would just charge their batteries on rainy days with those KWh of power rather than use a generator.
From their perspective I guess the most logical plan is to lower the first and second Tier rates by roughly $30 and then tack on a $30 connection fee. Normal home owner sees no change but the solar owner see's an increase in their bill.

I plan to Battery power my way completely off the system if that day should come.

 

[shavermcspud]

It's great that batteries are becoming cheaper, but the power system of the future shouldn't depend on every home having batteries. If most homes had solar, the grid would be extremely fault tolerant, and if one home briefly exceeded its generation capacity, solar from nearby homes would supply it. Tie in a nearby wind farm to provide power at night, and there would be only a small need for large scale electricity production, to cover what the wind can't do, or for rare events that solar doesn't cover day usage.

The only "problem" with that, is that it limits the money large corporations can make.

This doesn't always work worldwide, I now have just over 22kWp of panels on my roof here in the UK, for the past 10 days its been almost dark, cloudy and generally shit weather wise. the most I have logged is 1.3kW being generated, just enough to run my home but doesn't charge my battery bank up enough, add in practically zero wind so the local turbines have been static too.

 

[Cajunwolf]

It's great that batteries are becoming cheaper, but the power system of the future shouldn't depend on every home having batteries. If most homes had solar, the grid would be extremely fault tolerant, and if one home briefly exceeded its generation capacity, solar from nearby homes would supply it. Tie in a nearby wind farm to provide power at night, and there would be only a small need for large scale electricity production, to cover what the wind can't do, or for rare events that solar doesn't cover day usage.

The only "problem" with that, is that it limits the money large corporations can make.

I think I'd rather have and control my own battery bank and pay or get paid depending on usage versus supplying the grid. I've been through more than one SHTF event, and being self-sufficient is a blessing.

 

[wholybee]

A connection fee is actually perfectly fair. After all, they are providing a service, even if your net usage is zero or negative. What is NOT fair, is both having a connection fee, and not paying a fair price for the power you sell them.

 

[Cajunwolf]

I'm not big on wind. It's ugly as billboards and dirty as hell when time to dispose.

 

[wholybee]

This doesn't always work worldwide, I now have just over 22kWp of panels on my roof here in the UK, for the past 10 days its been almost dark, cloudy and generally shit weather wise. the most I have logged is 1.3kW being generated, just enough to run my home but doesn't charge my battery bank up enough, add in practically zero wind so the local turbines have been static too.

Which is why you would still be grid tied, and be able to buy power just as we do now. But the scale at which that power would need to be created would be tremendously smaller. (small need)

 

[wholybee]

I think I'd rather have and control my own battery bank and pay or get paid depending on usage versus supplying the grid. I've been through more than one SHTF event, and being self-sufficient is a blessing.

I would rather be able to have a smaller array, and not have to buy batteries, or dispose of them and replace when they were out. The key is to not need to rely on a utility company and have the fault tolerance of non-centralized power generation.

I am perfectly happy for everyone that wants batteries though. I have no reason to oppose or stop you. I just don't think it is a solution for the masses to have every home have batteries in it.

 

[Cajunwolf]

I would rather be able to have a smaller array, and not have to buy batteries, or dispose of them and replace when they were out. The key is to not need to rely on a utility company and have the fault tolerance of non-centralized power generation.

I am perfectly happy for everyone that wants batteries though. I have no reason to oppose or stop you. I just don't think it is a solution for the masses to have every home have batteries in it.

Yep, different strokes for different folks makes the earth rotate more smoothly on its axis.

I will be living in my RV in 3 to 4 months; I'm not fond of the masses; they scare me. But then again, I'm an old fart staring down the barrel at 70 who's lived through some crazy shit people do; it's made me more melancholic (it's better than gloomy), pessimistic, and self-reliant.

 

[Cajunwolf]

If I stay in an RV park, say a couple of months or so, I'm on-grid; all other times, I'm on panels, battery, generator, or a combination; I also have a 4300-watt duel-fuel generator. That being said, I don't have a dog in the grid-tie/payback thing. I still think there ought to be a fair way to do it, but if wishes were horse then beggars would ride.

 

[Hedges]

The grid buys solar from large-scale producers at 0.03 cents per kWh and pays individuals 0.25 cents per kWh, and if everyone produced more than they needed, why have power companies? Oops... wealthy folks and politicians make a lot of money on these big power companies; who saw that one coming.

PG&E contracts to buy power from large PV producers for $0.10/kWh and pays rooftop consumers $0.025/kWh for surplus at end of year.

Proposed NEM 3.0 credits consumers net $0.000 for export (25% of $0.20/kWh retail is $0.05 credit, but $8/kW/month "tax" on PV is $0.05/kWh charge. Charge on what you export, charge on what you consume immediately, charge on what isn't produced when the sun don't shine.)

 

[Hedges]

its already here in Australia, we pay on average 25 cents a kwh ( varies place to place) and only get on average 6c kwh feed in... it sucks big time

I'll take it!
I can make power for $0.05/kWh (parts, assume free DIY labor, amortized over 10 years). So I get value equal to what I pay for exports, get use of what I make and consume immediately, free power in 10 years when purchase cost amortized.

Recently, was $0.20 credit for feed-in at noon, $0.50 charge for power consumed 4:00 to 9:00 PM.
New scheme is net zero credit, because fee per kWh is as much as the 25% of retail credit.