Electric Companies slowly taking back control

[Ampster]

Still the number of days fast starts sit idle has increased while compensation has fallen.

Yes, if you are talking about Peaker Plants. Peakers cannot compete with batteries because their operating costs are not competitive with batteries.

 

[Ampster]

Load shedding is so much easier an less capital intensive.

Individually people seem to be reluctant sign up for those plans. I got a $5 a month credit on my bill for allowing them to turn off my EV charger when the grid was stressed. Ironically I never used the charger during peak times.
The ultimate load shedding by the utilities is rolling blackouts.

 

[Austint]

Load shedding is so much easier an less capital intensive.

Respectfully, do you think load shedding is well received in the population? I agree if we can shave peaks it is more efficient but everyone expects the power to be there when they flip the switch . What if the peak is during emergency situations ? Another factor with load shedding is “loss of diversity “. It’s pretty hard to pick up the load when it’s been off for a while .

 

[Hedges]

The ultimate load shedding by the utilities is rolling blackouts.

And that is why I recommend pager-controlled load shedding of A/C.
We've had occasional blackouts when generation or transmission couldn't keep up with loads on a hot day.

First stage shedding, command a percentage "off" time to loads of people who signed up.

For recalcitrant customers, a 100A or 200A contactor mounted under the utility meter, wired to pager and current sensor.

Second stage shedding, cut power to house of those customers if current exceeds limit sent by page.

Third stage shedding, shut of entire city.

 

[Hedges]

Respectfully, do you think load shedding is well received in the population?

Eff 'em if they can't take load shedding.
Because that's exactly what they have to endure today. Power outage for entire region, snarled traffic, spoiled food if it lasts too long.

Load shedding is the equivalent of a huge, $10's of billions or more capital infrastructure investment. Don't offer some measly $5/month for signing up. Make it a monthly or annualized value equal to the entire capital cost of base load generation that is avoided.

Could make it a "market", consumers and utilities placing bids for buy/sell of shedding. Utility must pay fair market rate to obtain power production (or shedding) sufficient to achieve 99.9% uptime.

Similarly, load adding can swallow surplus production, allowing utility a (reasonable) profit for transporting PV and wind produced power to consumers who can pump water, build ice, or otherwise make use of variable production efficiently.

End result can be lower cost and cleaner power for everyone.

 

[Hedges]

Another factor with load shedding is “loss of diversity “. It’s pretty hard to pick up the load when it’s been off for a while .

Either analog (linear) control of loads & production, or statistical (time division multiplexing) can adjust them, and their ramp rate.
A pager signal with one number for percentage and another for ramp rate can control the entire city (for good or for evil in the case of hackers; rolling codes could provide security until someone cracks the seed and algorithm.)

 

[12VoltInstalls]

not just a few that over generate and demand to be compensated at unreasonable costs.

People were sold on the 20-year idea of saving and making money. That that isn’t currently desirable doesn’t make it right to make a bill of goods out of a selling feature/carrot/incentives when the agreements were made. That’s the issue.

 

[Ampster]

A pager signal with one number for percentage and another for ramp rate can control the entire city (for good or for evil in the case of hackers;

They already have a Zigbee mesh network with smart meters. I also thought they had the ability to remotely shut off power at the meter but I am not certain.

 

[740GLE]

Load shedding is so much easier and less capital intensive. Just a pager wired to open a thermostat circuit or motor contactor.
That won't provide heat, but it can adjust loads to what generation can carry.

Power costs everyone less if generation is better utilized, fewer peaks and valleys in consumption and less idle capacity maintained to handle peaks.

You’re idea of loadsheading is rather funny compared to what happened in TX and may happen to the Northeast. Think rolling blackouts. TX Operators were dumping hundreds of MW to balance load and generation in hopes to save it, it’s not just turning of peoples water heaters hoping to shave 2%. Eventually they had such a stripped system it became unbalanced and frequency and voltage couldn’t be maintained and everything operated.

While there are plans with multiple steps that help the grid out, eventually steps are run out. A transmission system isn’t designed to operate with limited load and select generation it’s a fickle beast to maintain.

Baseload generation is also a thing of the past, majority of New England Nuk plants have disappeared (most due to costs and low prices of the markets) load has become much peakier, almost doubling from the lows of the day to peak of the evening 4 until 8pm (after sun goes down).

 

[740GLE]

People were sold on the 20-year idea of saving and making money. That that isn’t currently desirable doesn’t make it right to make a bill of goods out of a selling feature/carrot/incentives when the agreements were made. That’s the issue.

A snake oil salesman also make good promises he can’t deliver, your point? Isn’t this just another lesson in buyer beware?

 

[wattmatters]

problem is a LOT of the rest of Australia ( outside major city's, but not always) is still locked to only 1 supplier ( ergon ) and they basically charge what they feel

It's the same everywhere in Australia - there is only one DNSP servicing any given region in Australia. There are two in QLD (Energex & Ergon), three in NSW, five in VIC, one each in SA, TAS, NT, ACT & WA. I am in the Essential Energy region in NSW (regional NSW). The fees distributors charge the retailers are heavily regulated.

It's on the retail side where the level of competition varies, but frankly the choices, while numerous in the more populated regions, and often not all that different.

The Ergon distribution region is slowly getting more retail options available but it's possibly limited to specific postcodes.

Aside from Ergon Energy's retail offer (which actually isn't that bad compared with most of Australia, it's significantly cheaper than what we pay in regional NSW), other retailers are now offering retail electricity plans in the Ergon distribution region:
- Social Energy
- Locality Planning Energy
- Mojo Power
- QEnergy

Check them out, may find something more suitable to your energy use profile.

As to what FITs are on offer, remember these do not incur any distribution or network fees at all. Those fees only apply to imports. FITs up to about 8c/kWh are on offer in the Ergon region but right across the eastern states I would expect the normal value of FITs to be in the 3-8c/kWh range. The days of 10-20c/kWh FITs are well behind us, and the state preferential FIT schemes are only for legacy systems (mostly early adopters with fairly small solar PV systems) and the last such offer in Australia closed to new applications in 2016.

 

[Hedges]

A snake oil salesman also make good promises he can’t deliver, your point? Isn’t this just another lesson in buyer beware?

Not when there was a 20 year lock-in of utility feed-in terms, and terms get changed by PUC and PG&E.

Now the problem is California law requires PV on roof of new homes, and proposed regulations by PUC sets net compensation at exported power at $0.00/kWh. Most rooftop production is middle of the day, when we're away at work not using power. Our consumption is in the evening/night/morning when little sunlight.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

They already have a Zigbee mesh network with smart meters. I also thought they had the ability to remotely shut off power at the meter but I am not certain.

Some places around here they’ll call and umm… send out a technician when you shut off the main breaker for a few days. They call again at billing when you used zero kWh. Apparently the meter can send info to the utility. Fancy.
Somebody I know did that a few summers ago. Left it off until winter. Remote farmhouse with a spring uphill. Utility was very concerned LOL

 

[Tony Scott]

I think the misconception that PG&E is (somewhat successfully) selling is that they are offering incentives, that they now just don't feel they should continue. Being able to sell power back to PG&E at the rate you pay or anywhere below is not an incentive. It would only be an incentive if you could sell it at more than what you would pay.

This really needs to be looked at as a very important way to reduce dependance on fossil fuels and an outdated grid-not an incentives program.

Government incentives only drive up the price. This year it is 26% creating price increases by that much. So price for buy backs will continue to decrease until they make you pay for connecting to them. Michigan now pays in credits 3/4 for each KW.

 

[Tony Scott]

I'll take it!
I can make power for $0.05/kWh (parts, assume free DIY labor, amortized over 10 years). So I get value equal to what I pay for exports, get use of what I make and consume immediately, free power in 10 years when purchase cost amortized.

Recently, was $0.20 credit for feed-in at noon, $0.50 charge for power consumed 4:00 to 9:00 PM.
New scheme is net zero credit, because fee per kWh is as much as the 25% of retail credit.

also, the point of others suggesting " just add more panels" , again here in Australia, rooftop solar connected to the grid is INCREDIBLY over-regulated, you are not allowed to add more than they regulate, eg. most places its 5KW feed in max, because the " system can't handle anymore " ... BS... , also if ANY part of the system fails, most cases the ENTIRE system has to be replaced, unless you are lucky enough your system is still " the current one approved "... LOL, most times that doesn't happen, like just recently the removed a heap of panels off the cec approval list because they " need 8 earthing holes, these only had 6 " , nothing wrong with them, were previously approved etc.. just BS ...

It is the same in the U.S, people need to read the agreement closely. You have to get permission to replace any components from the electric company and you also have to get permission if you want to add additional components such as battery’s. That ten year contract will be change if you modify your system from its original approval.

 

[Tony Scott]

Some places around here they’ll call and umm… send out a technician when you shut off the main breaker for a few days. They call again at billing when you used zero kWh. Apparently the meter can send info to the utility. Fancy.
Somebody I know did that a few summers ago. Left it off until winter. Remote farmhouse with a spring uphill. Utility was very concerned LOL

You are not allowed to be disconnected from the grid in California, they were threatening to Condemn peoples homes if they did not connect. Some people had built their homes strictly to run off solar and they were forced to connect.

 

[Tony Scott]

The problem is that when the sun shines on your roof enough to backfeed it is also shining on the megawatt solar farm down the road and the market price of power goes negative.
Determining a fair price then becomes problematic!

It was never about being fair. It was a bait and switch, they promised you payment with full intentions on ending those payments.

 

[Tony Scott]

At least in the beginning, California had surplus generation capacity at night. Nuclear and hydro. During they day they were skating on thin ice. One day in the 1990's, a fire near the Canadian border took out a transmission line. Over the next three days the grid collapsed from Vancouver to Ensenada.

Population and consumption has grown since then. Baseline utility production hasn't kept up.

I think a lot of peaker plants were built after that. California intentionally screwed up the market, keeping retail rates fixed while making wholesale generation "competitive", which meant we paid $0.10/kWh to run A/C on a hot day and PG&E had to pay $1.00/kWh to buy power.

With lots of PV on line, while there of course isn't a grid-scale battery (except one pumped hydro plant), PV generated power during hot days routes through a few wires to neighbor's A/C. Less loss (and infrastructure cost) than traveling further through transmission lines. Then at night when there is surplus we get power using the credits. The "battery" is accounting, much cheaper and more efficient than storing power.

That only works with surplus baseload generation capacity. And PV that isn't excessive to the point of destabilizing the grid.

Moving forward to greater PV penetration, two things are needed.
1) Control of PV production so total output and ramp rate doesn't topple the grid.
2) Control of loads to utilize surplus PV and avoid use of fossil fuel. Also curtailing loads to avoid toppling the grid.

At some point we might have PV capacity 2x what is needed, dynamically adjusting its output to match loads and able to fill in for up to 50% reduction in sunlight across the state.

When utility can't supply all demand, the grid collapses and everyone loses power.
A system of signaling to shed some/all but critical loads would be preferable to the grid going down. That is almost trivial to implement.

PV can be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Utility scale PV costs a fraction what rooftop PV does.
Rates and net metering need to keep utility company viable/profitable.
Some reasonable charges and credits for rooftop PV customers can be part of the system.

Let us remember these are public utilities, which some being private, like Texas. They are not suppose to be making Billions, paying Exorbitant Salaries all the while asking for price increases and yet, put nothing into maintaining the system.

 

[Tony Scott]

I respectfully disagree. Yes, most of the dangerous radioactive materials in nuclear waste are short lived, but we have no way to safely dispose of waste that possess the ability to harm life for tens of thousands of years. We cannot safely dispose of the garbage we make on a daily basis. I do realize this is my opinion and will not be slighted by a contrary view, or if proven wrong.

Rant ...
Living several miles from the largest active garbage pit in the county, I see first-hand how we are destroying our planet. Yes, for the most part, we simply bury our waste in a great big hole; out of site, out of mind. Forget about global warming. Forget about electric cars. Forget about green energy. What I see on a daily basis is the 'here and now' factual, proven, right in your face, undeniable, wasting and destruction of our planet, and much of it is fueled by our very own 'throw-away' mentality. This is something we can have a positive affect on, right now. By simply refilling our water bottles, reusing our bags at the grocery store, not having to have the latest and greatest gadgets. Small steps but if we all chip in ... we can make a here and now difference.

As a side note ... there was an article in one of the local papers confirming leachate from the garbage dump, is contaminating local drinking water. There was no follow-up, just a single newspaper article that appears to be impossible to find online.

I wish politics and science were not in $$$ bed together so, we the people, would know the real unscripted truth about our world.

This is an interesting thread with a lot of useful information, but I feel I have taken it much too far off course. My apologies.

No, you are correct and I think the person forgot about Japan and Chernobyl as well as Tree Mile Island in the U.S. In Virginia and Michigan to name a few places you have mountains that are not natural, but trash piles.

 

[Tony Scott]

Individually people seem to be reluctant sign up for those plans. I got a $5 a month credit on my bill for allowing them to turn off my EV charger when the grid was stressed. Ironically I never used the charger during peak times.
The ultimate load shedding by the utilities is rolling blackouts.

Remember The more control you give, the less you have. They did the same thing when they wanted to install smart meters. In the future I can see them creating a surcharge for people use an EV charger.