midwestsolarnoob
New Member
So keeping towards OP’s predictions(not the state of the world’s ignorance)….what is the most cost efficient route for energy storage? It appears that DIY is still half the price or so of prebuilt lifepo4.
Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…
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Brucey
Solar Wizard
Once you get into the 280/304 cell size yes there seems to be at least a $1000 in savings. For a 100Ah sizing the pricing for pre built is more competitive especially if you're willing to series four 12V batteries together.
$901 for a four pack of the minis.
midwestsolarnoob
New Member
Kind of what I was seeing as well
There are obviously different qualities of prebuilt (OTS) and when there are special requirements, that’s an entirely different discussion, but I question how you can build DIY for under $0.07/Wh.
Amazon is now showing a first 100Ah 12V OTS LiFePO4 battery for under $170:
$169.99 with shipping translates to $0.1328/Wh so the DIY budget based on your claim of ‘half the price’ of OTS / prebuilt would be less than $0.0664/Wh all-in.
I don’t believe anyone is even getting new cells alone for that price these days (280Ah cells for less than $60????).
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There are sources for new, 'grade b' cells 280Ah from China for $50 or so if you buy 32 or so.
Even here in Europe you can get Envision cells for 69 Euro if you buy 16, and that's including VAT:
You calling me a loser?
On a serious note, when I started my calculations to go off-grid, I would have been happy to get to 10kWh for anything close to under 10k Euro. I really didn't mind the price I paid 4 years ago - they're still powering the house, and have already paid for themselves in the mean time.
Recovering EE
New Member
I think the trend both with lower and lower cell cost/Wh as well as the arrival of more and more finished LiFePO4 batteries at lower and lower cost means it’s just a matter of time before building your own DIY LuFePO4 batteries from cells is not going to make any sense.
Today, you can purchase a lead-acid battery for about $0.08/Wh raw capacity or $0.16/Wh usable capacity (@ 50% DOD).
So without factoring in cycle life which is a huuuuge factor in LiFePO4’s favor, $0.16/Wh usable represents pretty much a floor in the cost for energy storage (and hence it is not surprising that used Lithium cells from EV’s are priced right around this level).
The aftermarket cells we have bee purchasing from Chinese resellers are a huge crapshoot, and with shipping costs, it’s getting harder and harder to purchase cells that have high likelihood to not be garbage for much under delivered cost of $0.18/Wh raw or $0.20/Wh usable capacity @ 90% DOD.
Signature Solar’s GYLL battery is$1500 for 5.1kWh of usable capacity, or $0.29/Wh (ignoring shipping costs). Shipping to California is $180 bringing total delivered cost up to $0.33/Wh usable delivered.
And the Powerporter battery the was just disclosed is $1700 for 9.0Wh or $0.19/Wh raw or $0.21/Wh usable @ 90% DOD: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/the-new-lithium-battery-which-use-catl-battery-cell.32066/
Shipping on that battery should cost about as much as shipping raw cells from China, but eventually Powerporter or Signaturesolar or another competitor will have US stock and will sell Off-The-Shelf (OTS) LiFePO4 batteries through Amazon with free shipping as we are starting to see with LiFePO4 cell vendors today.
So let’s assume a worst-case shipping cost of $180 like Signature Solar, that brings raw cost up to $0.21/Wh or $0.23/Wh usable @ 90% DOD,
The point I am trying to make is that by this time next year, it’s a near-certainty we’ll be able to purchase completed OTS LiFePO4 batteries through Amazon or eBay at costs of $0.19-0.21/Wh raw or $0.21-0.23/Whusable.
That means that the savings of taking the risk in DIY will be less than 5% to a maximum of 13% and that’s not yet factoring in the cost of BMS, cables, fuses/breakers, and housing, which will add a minimum of $150 or more realistically $200 to the total BOM (meaning another $0.02 to $0.03/Wh, reducing savings to zero).
So it was fun while it lasted, and we should all take some pride in having blazed the trail of LiFePO4 storage for small-scale DIY solar systems, but it’s likely to be a fool’s errand to head down this same path before the next year has passed.
Even compared to the absolute ‘floor’ of going with lead-acid or used EV cells costing $0.16/Wh usable, an off-the-shelf LiFePO battery will likely not involve a premium of more than 30% to 44% (which is so worth it when the over 10x cycle life is factored in, it’s not even funny).
So anyway, those are my two predictions for December 2022:
1: Finished OTS LiFePO4 batteries on Amazon or through other vendors at costs of $0.23/Wh or less delivered.
2: Far less traffic on this Forum (or possibly a renaming to ‘DIY/OTS LiFePO4 Battery Banks’, either explicit or implied
It's a lot like building your own desktop PC. You don't save any money buying components and assembling it yourself.
There's also the subject of warranty coverage...
I think looser is a bit harsh of a word..I don’t think you were trying to be mean but are not considering all people who don't sit around all day trying to save every last cent they can save..
some people wish to enjoy life ,,, the money or effort is secondary…
In 1993 I entered the market for a big screen TV and sound system for my home… VHS players ruled at that time …to compliment my new big TV and Bose surround sound system i went out and bought a 269.00 Sony VHS 4 head ,auto this and auto that ,movie tape player.it was a beast ...the results were cutting edge visuals and sound…at that time….
269.00…………269.00… everyone who came over marveled at watching it…for years ….
and prices dropped… DVD reared it’s head commercially a few years later …
by 2005 ish I sold my tape deck for 25 bucks , bought a real nice flat screen and a 500.00 DVD unit and kept the Bose system…
By that time a new vhs player was 49.00
by about 2012 ish you could by a DVD and VHS COMBO at Walmart for 69.00 .. and the cycle repeats itself to this day…
So am I a looser ? I could have waited 10 years and saved some money……are others who want nice stuff when it’s first possible …are they losers too.?
if one sits around and waits for everything he buys to become super super cheap they will generally never own anything worth telling some one you bought…
no one is guaranteed tomorrow , much less 5 years from now…
some people don’t really care about money that much …they just want to enjoy living…with the loved ones that are still alive..
J…
63° north…yeah.You calling me a loser?
Have seen reports where a Bms on a prebuilt needed replacement. This can also happen with DIY. Benefits of having DIY skills however is that one knows how to troubleshoot and repair either.
When I DIY I know exactly how mine is built and how to fix it if needed. Did I also mention that it was fun as well?
When I DIY I know exactly how mine is built and how to fix it if needed. Did I also mention that it was fun as well?
I must be missing somthing, but I will take your trusted word for it…the written word some times causes “intent distortion” …sorry If I got it wrong…
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,891
There are winners, and there are losers.
Which when said could be understood as the other meaning of loser:
www.dictionary.com
We're friends here (for the most part), and like to rib each other.
Of course, getting less of a bargain isn't necessarily really losing, could mean winning less.
One guy was concerned that if he bought PV panels around $0.20/W they might later be available for $0.10/W.
I pointed out that even at $0.20, he could save a massive amount off his utility bill. If he hesitated and prices rebounded, he would be kicking himself. I coined the phrase, "Angry cat bounce."
As for me, I paid $5/W for 15kW of PV panels 20 years ago. So who's the loser now?
Which when said could be understood as the other meaning of loser:
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com
We're friends here (for the most part), and like to rib each other.
Of course, getting less of a bargain isn't necessarily really losing, could mean winning less.
One guy was concerned that if he bought PV panels around $0.20/W they might later be available for $0.10/W.
I pointed out that even at $0.20, he could save a massive amount off his utility bill. If he hesitated and prices rebounded, he would be kicking himself. I coined the phrase, "Angry cat bounce."
As for me, I paid $5/W for 15kW of PV panels 20 years ago. So who's the loser now?
PotusGobbleBottom
Corn Pop was a bad dude.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
If your here,... you're already winning...
I understand…thx for the background of things…was unaware of some of the context..There are winners, and there are losers.
Which when said could be understood as the other meaning of loser:
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
We're friends here (for the most part), and like to rib each other.
Of course, getting less of a bargain isn't necessarily really losing, could mean winning less.
One guy was concerned that if he bought PV panels around $0.20/W they might later be available for $0.10/W.
I pointed out that even at $0.20, he could save a massive amount off his utility bill. If he hesitated and prices rebounded, he would be kicking himself. I coined the phrase, "Angry cat bounce."
As for me, I paid $5/W for 15kW of PV panels 20 years ago. So who's the loser now?
I joined this site 4 years ago this March ..i had no idea about most anything of modern solar…
it was all new compared to what existed or available in the 80 on my boat.
all I saw at first was Will running around barefoot in his rv putting together simple but facinatiing little systems ,and explaining theory..cool …so I started learning and reading …
next thing I know he’s promoting battle born and Victron and , doing videos from the office at Battleborne with denis and others…best thing since sliced bread…these things are so good they will wash your car if the sun ain’t out today…etc etc .
next thing I know I’m on the phone ..I gotta have em..send me a batch of them NOW…and calling other places too…send me some of those Victron things Will was talking about ….send me everything… I don’t even know why ..send me alo….I want boxes of stuff ..
boxes I say…
much of what we have available now wasn’t even available then…
i got the BB at 900 each back then .. there still about that now …….when they have sales they are @750- 800 and free shipping….do I worry about the fact they have a lot more less expensive competition now…? nope… don’t care..
I over bought all the big and mid size copper cable about a year before the jump ..that was lucky
some of the Victron stuff is way less now…
I think it’s great , I don’t care… I’m happy for others…
…everything either goes up , away, down or isnt usable with tomorrows tech…
what can you do…?
I both respect and genuinely like a lot of people here…it’s why I have a working system..
they helped me.
but I am watching prices and vendors abit more shrewdly Nowdays…as I know more…
everyone likes a deal.
J.
Sanwizard
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2021
- Messages
- 2,718
Ah, but when you build it yourself, YOU are the one who gets to pick the components! Motherboard, Bios firmware, memory configuration, AMD or Intel, graphics system, cooling system, power supply, case design, etc.
Its built to YOUR specs, the way YOU like it. You get to decide how upgradeable everything is, and what OS runs on it.
Same with a DIY battery. Start with the cell manufacturer you like, the amp hour you want, and then everything else is by your design, and repairable by you, all at a cost comparable to a commercially available battery.
Brucey
Solar Wizard
There's 48V 50Ah DC House batteries on Amazon for $410. Only 50A BMS but with multiples not a bad bang for buck.
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