New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

hankcurt said:

I think the result of these changes will largely depend upon your code enforcement AHJ.

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Thats good input. In California the AHJ for prefabricated homes is the state government. There has recently been an increase in people putting these into their backyard as accessory dwelling units. Otherwise known as mother in law units they are also used as VRBO or AirBNB short term vacation rental units in areas like mine where there is a lot of tourist visits. When one door closes, another one opens.

ArthurEld said:

Maybe if I didn't call the building department and ask about UL batteries I could be a rebel too.
I'm paying $850 including shipping for UL listed batteries. And they aren't going to waste.

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The batteries are probably "UL Recognized".
Close but no cigar?

Obviously lithium batteries can make it relatively easy to start a fire.
Ideally we'd get to the point where there is a standard for a lithium cell (or bank of cells), that both BMS and cells are listed as meeting.
Then we could mix & match within those. There should just be parameters of the cell to be entered in the BMS.

Is an ESS a battery together with charge controller? And with inverter? Or just a stack of lithium cells with BMS?
Is a bank of of AGM (or FLA) an ESS? it doesn't require a BMS.

Hedges said:

Is an ESS a battery together with charge controller? And with inverter? Or just a stack of lithium cells with BMS?
Is a bank of of AGM (or FLA) an ESS? it doesn't require a BMS.

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From NEC 2020 article 690 - PV system, the ESS doesn't include the inverter





From NEC 2020 article 706 - ESS might or might not include the charge controller and inverter

I think there are too many design variations to make an all encompassing statement.

Solutions are beginning to emerge.

Hedges said:

The batteries are probably "UL Recognized".
Close but no cigar?

Obviously lithium batteries can make it relatively easy to start a fire.
Ideally we'd get to the point where there is a standard for a lithium cell (or bank of cells), that both BMS and cells are listed as meeting.
Then we could mix & match within those. There should just be parameters of the cell to be entered in the BMS.

Is an ESS a battery together with charge controller? And with inverter? Or just a stack of lithium cells with BMS?
Is a bank of of AGM (or FLA) an ESS? it doesn't require a BMS.

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You are correct.
I'll mention it to AltE. If no cigar I'll have to go with Bob's plan.

It would be nice for the pre approval to go smooth.

I'll get through it even if I have to buy a NEC 2020 Article 690 approved ESS. ?

ArthurEld said:

I'll get through it even if I have to buy a NEC 2020 Article 690 approved ESS. ?

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Then you'll have to install an explody lithium battery instead of an (almost) intrinsically safe AGM.

I suppose either LiFePO4 or AGM, if severely abused electrically, can become a fire hazard.
(but so can a piece of copper wire, ergo fuses/breakers with sufficient AIC rating.)

Maybe my solution would be to connect four, 20A 12V batteries in series and wire that to my 23 kW of Sunny Island.
Perhaps I would park a golf cart or forklift nearby. With an Anderson connector (or four) for charging the batteries, of course.

The "batteries optional" hybrid inverters may be the easiest to install and get permitted with a wink.

Another way would be an automatic transfer switch with plug for generator.
And maybe a car with V2H in the driveway.

Hedges said:

Ideally we'd get to the point where there is a standard for a lithium cell (or bank of cells), that both BMS and cells are listed as meeting.

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And I would add that there needs to be some recognition of fire risk between chemistries. In other words Lipo should not even be considered unless housed in a concrete bunker. NCA and NMC need to have mitigation like in Tesla Powerwalls and other UL approved types. LFPs can have a different standard. The thing that is ironic is the lack of rules around Pb chemistries some of which do give off explosive hydrogen gas.

I think most of our lithium batteries are pretty safe.
I see a lot of systems with old corroded 12V lead acid batteries that don't look very safe.
And people using way too many amps on 12V systems.

Ampster said:

Solutions are beginning to emerge.

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I am not sure if you mean solutions for the DIYer or solutions in the broader market.

It is is always the case that when code changes solutions start showing up in the market. In fact, I have never seen a code change that did not have at least one solution (all be it an expensive solution). The various suppliers have a capitalistic interest in providing solutions. Over time the incremental cost of the new code tends to go down as the competition increases.

Unfortunately, the NFPA has no interest or incentive to address the DIY market. However, solutions for the larger market typically have beneficial trickle-down to the DIY market.

Hedges said:

Then you'll have to install an explody lithium battery instead of an (almost) intrinsically safe AGM.

I suppose either LiFePO4 or AGM, if severely abused electrically, can become a fire hazard.
(but so can a piece of copper wire, ergo fuses/breakers with sufficient AIC rating.)

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Ampster said:

And I would add that there needs to be some recognition of fire risk between chemistries. In other words Lipo should not even be considered unless housed in a concrete bunker. NCA and NMC need to have mitigation like in Tesla Powerwalls and other UL approved types. LFPs can have a different standard. The thing that is ironic is the lack of rules around Pb chemistries some of which do give off explosive hydrogen gas.

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Yes, this goes to the broader issue I have seen: All lithium chemistries are lumped under the "They can explode" category. (Example: LiFePo4 is considered just as dangerous as any other lithium chemistry for shipping) Hopefully over time they will start differentiating between the chemistries, but it might be a while. (It is kinda like "anything with the word nuclear is horrible horrible Horrible....." That is why they changed the name of Nuclear Imaging to Magnetic Resonance Imaging or MRI)

Hedges said:

The "batteries optional" hybrid inverters may be the easiest to install and get permitted with a wink.

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That is my fallback plan.

Hedges said:

Another way would be an automatic transfer switch with plug for generator.
And maybe a car with V2H in the driveway.

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I have been skeptical of V2H in the past but this new development has changed my perspective. I also like the idea of a hopped up golf cart with 48 LF 280s. Or an electric tractor.

Ampster said:

That is my fallback plan.

I have been skeptical of V2H in the past but this new development has changed my perspective. I also like the idea of a hopped up golf cart with 48 LF 280sn. Or an electric tractor.

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People drive golf carts all over in Florida. They're legal on the streets in a lot of towns.
And people have high dollar golf carts. lol
That tractor would probably need wheelie bars.

FilterGuy said:

I am not sure if you mean solutions for the DIYer or solutions in the broader market

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A little of both as discussed down thread. I am hopeful as this gets better defined and as overall battery manufacturing capacity increases that the cost of "UL approved" ESS devices comes down. There will always be a price difference between UL approved and commodity devices like we have seen in the inverter market.

ArthurEld said:

That tractor would probably need wheelie bars.

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LOL. I do see some tractors with weights on their wheels to improve traction.

If anyone is a member (I believe @SolarQueen is) or inclined to join, Mike Holt's forum might be a good place to gather some context. There are many there that are very code savvy, and I think a few that have a role in steering the code.

AltE is doing my planning with Structural and Electrical engineering 2 copies sealed and stamped.

ArthurEld said:

AltE is doing my planning with Structural and Electrical engineering 2 copies sealed and stamped.

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Arthur I saw you mention you will be using AGM batteries a few posts back, If you will be using lead acid batteries for this project, what will you be doing with your EVE cells?

I am saving my Eve cells for long term outages. Or for when my electric company takes away net zero metering.

Permit inspectors don't know what to think about DIY powerwalls and such.

There are people on this forum who have had permit inspectors tell them they can't have reused EV batteries in the building because they aren't UL listed. I'm quite sure DIY batteries would be treated the same.
This says everything has to be UL listed and there are UL codes for all of the pieces - https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf
My electric company wants to know about the batteries. My insurance company will want to know about my whole system since they are going to insure it. Everything has to be proper.

I wonder how this is going to work with commercial installs? A PE routinely puts together electrical systems made from licensed components. Is this going to stop a PE from doing his job if it involves stored electrical energy > 1kWh? A PE doesn't currently have to have his designs licensed by U.L. he just has to only use listed components. A PE is licensed by the State to do this kind of work (like an architect doing a building design), I am not sure how states are going to respond to this encroachment on their regulatory powers? Hopefully they will push back.

If a PE remains able to design an ESS system from listed components then this could be a way for a DIY'er to work around this regulation. I could imagine a PE specializing in selling ESS system drawings. This is no different than building a home from a set of house plans purchased from an architect. And once a system has been designed, there is nothing to stop a PE from reselling the design to all comers.

Question. When you say DIY are you referring to doing the work yourself to you or manufacturing your own equipment (like building a battery pack out of a set of 280AH cells combined with a BMS, circuit breaker etc)? Under the new regulations, the first definition should still be possible, the second absolutely not. Worst thing is forget your local permit issue, the real sticking point is are the insurance companies going to enforce this by refusing to cover losses if a system that was involved in a fire is not compliant. Why would they if this gives them an out?

I wonder how this is going to apply to RV systems? My van has commercial plates and everything I am doing to it in the RV conversion is modular and removable (except for the solar panel on the roof and the wires from the panel to the galley), is completely contained with a single galley module. The galley module is removable from the van any time I want to use it as a cargo van. I plan on leaving the van registered and insured as a commercial vehicle. Getting coverage for a DIY RV conversion is pretty much impossible anyways. And the RV components I am transporting in my cargo van are covered against loss as cargo, but which would not be the case if they were installed into an RV. What a world.

-Edit-

This does make me think I need to change how I will implement Shore Power and water refill. I was going mount the shore power inlet and water refill inlet to the side of the van. Instead I think I will mount these into the galley module facing the outside of the van and use an access door for outside access (or just open the back door of the van). That way, the entire system really is part of the self contained galley module. That is going to be one heavy galley module. Glad I was already planning on making the battery pack readily removable or this would be totally impractical.

This has been interesting reading. We've been dealing with NEC 2020 with DIY installs for almost a full year now at altE Store. As far as I have seen, AHJs have only been requiring the batteries to be UL listed, and of course the inverter and other individual components, but not the entire system as one unit. I'll check on Monday to see if anyone else has run into any problems. The only rejects I have heard is someone trying to install a non-UL battery bank.

HaldorEE said:

Question. When you say DIY are you referring to doing the work yourself to you or manufacturing your own equipment (like building a battery pack out of a set of 280AH cells combined with a BMS, circuit breaker etc)? Under the new regulations, the first definition should still be possible, the second absolutely not. Worst thing is forget your local permit issue, the real sticking point is are the insurance companies going to enforce this by refusing to cover losses if a system that was involved in a fire is not compliant. Why would they if this gives them an out?

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Most people are talking about DIY batteries made of 280Ah cells. But the UL code part of the permit process applies to all of the pieces. Even the wire and connectors. https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf

hankcurt said:

From NEC 2020 article 690 - PV system, the ESS doesn't include the inverter
View attachment 30203




From NEC 2020 article 706 - ESS might or might not include the charge controller and inverter
View attachment 30202
I think there are too many design variations to make an all encompassing statement.

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That looks like my out! As long as an RV has a shore power connection, then the battery is a UPS system that provides back up power in the event of losing shore power (a power failure). And unplugging and driving off definitely constitutes a power failure.

Looks like you residential guys are fooked though.

ArthurEld said:

Most people are talking about DIY batteries made of 280Ah cells. But the UL code part of the permit process applies to all of the pieces. Even the wire and connectors. https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf

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Got that. Must use listed wire, connections, disconnects, circuit breakers etc. I already am. The BMS and cells are definitely not listed (they are as gray market as possible, shipped direct from China).

This is going to be a shot in the arm financially for the "Solar" generator/power station companies like Titan, Goal Zero, Ecoflow etc. Like they needed one.

Interesting that Eve Energy USA has some kind of UL certificate on their quality webpage - http://evebatteryusa.com/quality_service.htm

HaldorEE said:

This is going to be a shot in the arm financially for the "Solar" generator/power station companies like Titan, Goal Zero, Ecoflow etc. Like they needed one.

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The corona virus effectively wiped out a lot of the competition for big business already.

"NEC Section 706.5 requires that other than lead-acid batteries, energy storage components shall be listed and labeled or self-contained energy storage systems shall be listed as a complete energy storage system."

Ha ha! Told you guys Lead Acid was better! Luddites Rule!

2018 International Residential Code: Permits repurposed EV battery in shed > 5' from walls, property lines, right of way.

If that was tolerated, exempt from NEC because detached from the dwelling, then you guys would be home free.

"UPS" exemption is another possible way out. So long as we don't use the battery to backfeed the grid (which is what PG&E is afraid of us doing to save money), then this rule doesn't apply?? That's what I have, a giant UPS. It powers my house, and my house has grid-tie inverters.