Arthur I saw you mention you will be using AGM batteries a few posts back, If you will be using lead acid batteries for this project, what will you be doing with your EVE cells?
New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant
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ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
I am saving my Eve cells for long term outages. Or for when my electric company takes away net zero metering.
Permit inspectors don't know what to think about DIY powerwalls and such.
There are people on this forum who have had permit inspectors tell them they can't have reused EV batteries in the building because they aren't UL listed. I'm quite sure DIY batteries would be treated the same.
This says everything has to be UL listed and there are UL codes for all of the pieces - https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf
My electric company wants to know about the batteries. My insurance company will want to know about my whole system since they are going to insure it. Everything has to be proper.
Permit inspectors don't know what to think about DIY powerwalls and such.
There are people on this forum who have had permit inspectors tell them they can't have reused EV batteries in the building because they aren't UL listed. I'm quite sure DIY batteries would be treated the same.
This says everything has to be UL listed and there are UL codes for all of the pieces - https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf
My electric company wants to know about the batteries. My insurance company will want to know about my whole system since they are going to insure it. Everything has to be proper.
I wonder how this is going to work with commercial installs? A PE routinely puts together electrical systems made from licensed components. Is this going to stop a PE from doing his job if it involves stored electrical energy > 1kWh? A PE doesn't currently have to have his designs licensed by U.L. he just has to only use listed components. A PE is licensed by the State to do this kind of work (like an architect doing a building design), I am not sure how states are going to respond to this encroachment on their regulatory powers? Hopefully they will push back.
If a PE remains able to design an ESS system from listed components then this could be a way for a DIY'er to work around this regulation. I could imagine a PE specializing in selling ESS system drawings. This is no different than building a home from a set of house plans purchased from an architect. And once a system has been designed, there is nothing to stop a PE from reselling the design to all comers.
Question. When you say DIY are you referring to doing the work yourself to you or manufacturing your own equipment (like building a battery pack out of a set of 280AH cells combined with a BMS, circuit breaker etc)? Under the new regulations, the first definition should still be possible, the second absolutely not. Worst thing is forget your local permit issue, the real sticking point is are the insurance companies going to enforce this by refusing to cover losses if a system that was involved in a fire is not compliant. Why would they if this gives them an out?
I wonder how this is going to apply to RV systems? My van has commercial plates and everything I am doing to it in the RV conversion is modular and removable (except for the solar panel on the roof and the wires from the panel to the galley), is completely contained with a single galley module. The galley module is removable from the van any time I want to use it as a cargo van. I plan on leaving the van registered and insured as a commercial vehicle. Getting coverage for a DIY RV conversion is pretty much impossible anyways. And the RV components I am transporting in my cargo van are covered against loss as cargo, but which would not be the case if they were installed into an RV. What a world.
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This does make me think I need to change how I will implement Shore Power and water refill. I was going mount the shore power inlet and water refill inlet to the side of the van. Instead I think I will mount these into the galley module facing the outside of the van and use an access door for outside access (or just open the back door of the van). That way, the entire system really is part of the self contained galley module. That is going to be one heavy galley module. Glad I was already planning on making the battery pack readily removable or this would be totally impractical.
If a PE remains able to design an ESS system from listed components then this could be a way for a DIY'er to work around this regulation. I could imagine a PE specializing in selling ESS system drawings. This is no different than building a home from a set of house plans purchased from an architect. And once a system has been designed, there is nothing to stop a PE from reselling the design to all comers.
Question. When you say DIY are you referring to doing the work yourself to you or manufacturing your own equipment (like building a battery pack out of a set of 280AH cells combined with a BMS, circuit breaker etc)? Under the new regulations, the first definition should still be possible, the second absolutely not. Worst thing is forget your local permit issue, the real sticking point is are the insurance companies going to enforce this by refusing to cover losses if a system that was involved in a fire is not compliant. Why would they if this gives them an out?
I wonder how this is going to apply to RV systems? My van has commercial plates and everything I am doing to it in the RV conversion is modular and removable (except for the solar panel on the roof and the wires from the panel to the galley), is completely contained with a single galley module. The galley module is removable from the van any time I want to use it as a cargo van. I plan on leaving the van registered and insured as a commercial vehicle. Getting coverage for a DIY RV conversion is pretty much impossible anyways. And the RV components I am transporting in my cargo van are covered against loss as cargo, but which would not be the case if they were installed into an RV. What a world.
-Edit-
This does make me think I need to change how I will implement Shore Power and water refill. I was going mount the shore power inlet and water refill inlet to the side of the van. Instead I think I will mount these into the galley module facing the outside of the van and use an access door for outside access (or just open the back door of the van). That way, the entire system really is part of the self contained galley module. That is going to be one heavy galley module. Glad I was already planning on making the battery pack readily removable or this would be totally impractical.
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SolarQueen
Making renewable do-able at www.alteStore.com
This has been interesting reading. We've been dealing with NEC 2020 with DIY installs for almost a full year now at altE Store. As far as I have seen, AHJs have only been requiring the batteries to be UL listed, and of course the inverter and other individual components, but not the entire system as one unit. I'll check on Monday to see if anyone else has run into any problems. The only rejects I have heard is someone trying to install a non-UL battery bank.
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
Most people are talking about DIY batteries made of 280Ah cells. But the UL code part of the permit process applies to all of the pieces. Even the wire and connectors. https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/08/ESS-Final-Handout_8-8-2019.pdf
That looks like my out! As long as an RV has a shore power connection, then the battery is a UPS system that provides back up power in the event of losing shore power (a power failure). And unplugging and driving off definitely constitutes a power failure.
Looks like you residential guys are fooked though.
Got that. Must use listed wire, connections, disconnects, circuit breakers etc. I already am. The BMS and cells are definitely not listed (they are as gray market as possible, shipped direct from China).
This is going to be a shot in the arm financially for the "Solar" generator/power station companies like Titan, Goal Zero, Ecoflow etc. Like they needed one.
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ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
Interesting that Eve Energy USA has some kind of UL certificate on their quality webpage - http://evebatteryusa.com/quality_service.htm
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
The corona virus effectively wiped out a lot of the competition for big business already.
Hedges
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"NEC Section 706.5 requires that other than lead-acid batteries, energy storage components shall be listed and labeled or self-contained energy storage systems shall be listed as a complete energy storage system."
Ha ha! Told you guys Lead Acid was better! Luddites Rule!
2018 International Residential Code: Permits repurposed EV battery in shed > 5' from walls, property lines, right of way.
If that was tolerated, exempt from NEC because detached from the dwelling, then you guys would be home free.
"UPS" exemption is another possible way out. So long as we don't use the battery to backfeed the grid (which is what PG&E is afraid of us doing to save money), then this rule doesn't apply?? That's what I have, a giant UPS. It powers my house, and my house has grid-tie inverters.
Ha ha! Told you guys Lead Acid was better! Luddites Rule!
2018 International Residential Code: Permits repurposed EV battery in shed > 5' from walls, property lines, right of way.
If that was tolerated, exempt from NEC because detached from the dwelling, then you guys would be home free.
"UPS" exemption is another possible way out. So long as we don't use the battery to backfeed the grid (which is what PG&E is afraid of us doing to save money), then this rule doesn't apply?? That's what I have, a giant UPS. It powers my house, and my house has grid-tie inverters.
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
My AGMs will be a UPS as well. Even if the power goes out I will still have solar so there are not that many situations that will require me to use my EVEs.
If UPS is the only out for DIY residential, then it would prevent me doing what I think I would most want from a residential system. Use battery power to limit utility draw during most expensive time of day. That definitely would not count as UPS operation.
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
I don't think that would be breaking any rules though as long as you aren't feeding stored energy to the grid
Hedges
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What is your cost, $/kWh, of battery storage over the lifetime of the battery?
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I think of a UPS as an entirely different device from a load shaving ESS.
I can let my GT inverter sell power to the grid and use my Skybox do the load shaving. However I do not think my utility is the arbiter of the code question. I hope @HaldorEE is correct. I have six months or longer to develope my strategy to approach my County Building Department with this question. By then we may have further interpretation and I should be able to tell what the timeline is for adoption of the 2020 NEC code changes.
I can let my GT inverter sell power to the grid and use my Skybox do the load shaving. However I do not think my utility is the arbiter of the code question. I hope @HaldorEE is correct. I have six months or longer to develope my strategy to approach my County Building Department with this question. By then we may have further interpretation and I should be able to tell what the timeline is for adoption of the 2020 NEC code changes.
And EVE certainly has ESS systems for sale. I am guessing this is where residential applications are going. Hopefully increasing production will drive prices for these down.
To be honest I would just as soon buy an ESS as a component if the cost delta is not too huge. I think the days of cheap 280 AH cells is going to end soon enough. We were just the beneficiaries of a rare confluence of events (big increase in battery production combined with a pandemic killing demand for EV batteries).
And I want the 40ft Container ESS thank you very much. 2200 kWh!
hankcurt
Solar Enthusiast
This would make my life easier. I planned to do my installation in an equipment shed detached from the house. The problem I have is that I'm currently under NEC 2014 but I have heard that an update to NEC 2020 is in the works, so its hard to plan a project for spring without knowing which code will be in effect.
Yes, yes, that certainly seems to be the best explanation for the state of governance.
(just being funny, no offense intended)
Hedges
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How standards can ensure battery safety
There's no understating the importance of maintaining a safe battery system, and that maintenance will become only more important as battery adoption grows exponentially in the coming years. Fortunately, new standards are being developed alongside existing protocol to make safety management...
pv-magazine-usa.com
"California has already adopted the 2018 IRC as part of its current state residential building code, and with it, the requirement that any ESS placed in a home be listed to UL 9540."
Hey, if this is the deal, and nothing in NEC extends UL requirement to a shed > 5' from your house, should be no sweat.
All it would mean is that if you want to mount an explody (or LiFePO4) battery on your house, it has to be part of a UL listed ESS.
If not listed, keep it away from the house. Which you probably ought to do, anyway.
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
I'm sure affordable UL approved options will become more readily available no mater what the codes say.
That'll take all the fun out of it.
That'll take all the fun out of it.
A 7200 Wh 24V battery cost me about $1200 including BMS and active balancing. For a residential time shifting application I could see this powering two minisplit systems for 6 hours a day.
Figure 4000 charge cycles at 80% depth of discharge is equal to 24,000 kWh which ends up costing $0.05 per kWh.
SRP charges $0.127/kWh in the summer for the basic plan (single fixed price).
This jumps up to $0.2409/kWh during peak hours in the summer if you go with the Time-of Use plan.
SRP Time-of-Use (TOU) Price Plan | SRP
Save on your electric bill by shifting your energy use to off-peak hours. See how the Time-of-Use plan works and view off-peak seasonal hours.
For a whole house system I would definitely bump this up to a 15 kWh battery. That would cost about $2200 (based on current pricing).
Salt River Project makes the payback on solar and time shifting power consumption a lot easier to justify.
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