New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[Ampster]

NFPA 70 NEC Article 551, you might want to read it.

I am more interested in which agency I need to worry about enforcing it? I could live in a trailer parked on my property with a DIY battery system. But if I plug it into my home it may be considered a portable system by the County and have to have a UL approved ESS. I know the building code is enforced by the Building Department of my County.

 

[Pappion]

RandyP, good link.
"551.1 Scope. The provisions of this article cover the electrical conductors and equipment other than low-voltage and automotive vehicle circuits or extensions thereof...," "Low Voltage. An electromotive force rated 24 volts, nominal,or less"
IMHO, this excludes battery capacity from regulation.
The OP link showed this UL certification:

I doubt that applies to applications that do not send power back to the utility

 

[Dzl]

RV wiring is governed by RVIA standards. 110v socket mounting are definitely not up to NEC. Some similarties for GFI sockets and wiring.

RVIA-LV (Low Voltage) applies to low voltage DC, its scope does not apply to 110/220V AC.

 

[Ampster]

I doubt that applies to applications that do not send power back to the utility

I doubt that you are correct as far as NEC 2020 is concerned. I also doubt that my county Building Department would interpret NEC 2020 that way. I would prefer that you are correct because that would allow me to deploy my 48 LFP batteries. Much of what has been said earlier suggests that the definition of ESS does not care if it is used to send power to the grid or used in the home.
Sending to the grid is based on an agreement with my Electricity Provider who just wants to see that the equipment meets certain code requirements and the provider also imposes some limits on how much I can export. Building an ESS behind the meter that does not sell to the grid is only regulated by the building code. That is the topic of this thread.

 

[HaldorEE]

NFPA 70 NEC Article 551, you might want to read it.

NEC 551 - Recreational Vehicles

Excerpt from the 2017 NEC (NFPA 70) covering recreational vehicles

diysolarforum.com

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[fafrd]

How standards can ensure battery safety

There's no understating the importance of maintaining a safe battery system, and that maintenance will become only more important as battery adoption grows exponentially in the coming years. Fortunately, new standards are being developed alongside existing protocol to make safety management...

pv-magazine-usa.com

"California has already adopted the 2018 IRC as part of its current state residential building code, and with it, the requirement that any ESS placed in a home be listed to UL 9540."

Hey, if this is the deal, and nothing in NEC extends UL requirement to a shed > 5' from your house, should be no sweat.
All it would mean is that if you want to mount an explody (or LiFePO4) battery on your house, it has to be part of a UL listed ESS.
If not listed, keep it away from the house. Which you probably ought to do, anyway.

You can set up a portable generator and power devices in your house using extension cords during a power outage without involving your local building department or invalidating your fire insurance.

You can do the same thing with a portable solar generator containing a small PV array, charge controller, battery, and inverter.

So now that it seems pretty clear that the only way you are going to get a peak-shaving system with battery storage into your home under code and in a way that leaves your fire insurance intact is going to be to pay mega $$$s to a big corporation, I’m interested to understand whether DIY peak-shaving using a system housed in an outdoor shed is a viable option to avoid any risk of voiding a fire insurance warranty.

Sounds like I better go read the fine print on my Allstate Homeowner’s Policy...

Is the exception from NEC for shed distance >5’ from the home actually specified in the NEC code?

 

[Ampster]

I haven't read the entire section so I don't know about the five foot shed exception. I think that may be a vestige of an older rule that said more than a certain amount of kWhrs had to be located at least five feet from a dwelling. This new rule is much harder. I do recall seeing that portable systems are covered by NEC 2020 so putting my system on wheels and plugging it in via a generator plug would not give me a break.
The thing that is ironic is that I could park 90 kWhs of much more volatile NCA chemistry in my garage with my Tesla but I will not be able to put 40 kWhrs of less volatile LFP chemisty on the wall of my garage unless it costs four or five times as much as my existing DIY LFP and carries a UL sticker.

 

[fafrd]

I haven't read the entire section so I don't know about the five foot shed exception. I think that may be a vestige of an older rule that said more than a certain amount of kWhrs had to be located at least five feet from a dwelling. This new rule is much harder. I do recall seeing that portable systems are covered by NEC 2020 so putting my system on wheels and plugging it in via a generator plug would not give me a break.
The thing that is ironic is that I could park 90 kWhs of much more volatile NCA chemistry in my garage with my Tesla but I will not be able to put 40 kWhrs of less volatile LFP chemisty on the wall of my garage unless it costs four or five times as much as my existing DIY LFP and carries a UL sticker.

There is compatibility with building and permitting requirements and there is compliance with terms governing homeowners insurance policies (and specifically fire insurance provisions).

My main concern is with the latter, and while a permanent ‘portable’ system located within the dwelling may constitute part of ‘building wiring’ and be subject to NEC, I’d be surprised if non-permanent wiring such as extension cord going to a non-permanent outstructure such as a shed or a storage locker could void a fire insurance policy. But it’s definitely time to read the fine print...

Hooking up something like this can’t possibly void a fire insurance policy:

Patriot Power Solar Panel Generator 1800

Our best-selling portable solar-powered generator includes a solar panel & never needs gas. Perfect for survival situations, off-grid adventures, & blackouts.

4patriots.com

I’m was hoping to have my ‘backup’ panels permanently mounted on the roof, so I’m still going to have to figure out how to have those to code and ‘official’ but hooking those up so they can be connected to a non-permanent outside generator ‘when needed’ sounds like it should hopefully be possible.

UL-certified 35V panels hooked up to a UL-certifies MPPT charge controller wired to an outdoor DC socket of some kind if I can find a UL-certified solution for that.

Or worst-case, panels connected to a UL-certified off-grid inverter+MPPT combo box connected to a standard outdoor 120VAC or 240VAC socket.

During power outage, connect extension cord from socket to outside LFP battery charger charging outside LFP battery which feeds outside off-grid generator which can then power appliances in the house through extension cords.

There has got to be a way to permanently wire off-grid DC or AC PV power to an outside socket for use during outages in a manner that is compliant with NEC, makes the local building department happy, and leaves fire insurance unaffected.

If all the complexity of this NEC code change centers on a permanent battery permanently wired within the house, hopefully there is a non-permanent out-of-house architecture which can achieve most of what matters...

 

[Pappion]

RVIA-LV (Low Voltage) applies to low voltage DC, its scope does not apply to 110/220V AC.

I tried to look at RVIA codes. They want a lot of money for them. Rewiring my RV 12v, what exactly do I need for breakaway? Can it be fused? Was fused on old camper, why not the new TT? Shops say they are not fused. Maybe OK if batteries are on the tongue, nothing to burn there. But with LIFEPO4 in storage compartment, no fuse is a fire hazard. Is LIFEPO4 ok for breakaway? LA has a wider temperature range.
I don't understand how charging $45 and shipping makes us all safer. It's 16 pages, just post it for the public good.

 

[Dzl]

I tried to look at RVIA codes. They want a lot of money for them...
I don't understand how charging $45 and shipping makes us all safer. It's 16 pages, just post it for the public good.

Yeah, I looked into it, $3 per page was about 3x what I would be willing to spend. I don't own it, I just know that it only applies to low voltage DC (which is currently defined as <24V nominal, but may be revised in 2021 to <60V)

Personally (though I would be very interested to read the RVIA-LV standard, I tend to refer to the ABYC (marine) code much more for mobile electrical guidance. There is a lot of overlap, and the marine electrical industry is much more quality and safety focused and mature than the RV industry (in my opinion) and the code is surprisingly pretty readable and decently easy to understand for an amateur / DIYer (at least compared to other codes I've looked at). The 2008 version of the ABYC E-11 code is available in the resources section.

 

[ArthurEld]

You can set up a portable generator and power devices in your house using extension cords during a power outage without involving your local building department or invalidating your fire insurance.

You can do the same thing with a portable solar generator containing a small PV array, charge controller, battery, and inverter.

So now that it seems pretty clear that the only way you are going to get a peak-shaving system with battery storage into your home under code and in a way that leaves your fire insurance intact is going to be to pay mega $$$s to a big corporation, I’m interested to understand whether DIY peak-shaving using a system housed in an outdoor shed is a viable option to avoid any risk of voiding a fire insurance warranty.

Sounds like I better go read the fine print on my Allstate Homeowner’s Policy...

Is the exception from NEC for shed distance >5’ from the home actually specified in the NEC code?

Where I live, I am fairly sure a permit is required if you have electricity from the shed going to the house.

"Sheds for residential property less than 100 square feet and no taller than 10 feet do not require a permit unless connected to utilities."

That was copied from here- http://www.pinellascounty.org/code-enforcement/faq-code-enforcement.htm

 

[Hedges]

San Jose, CA

https://www.sanjoseca.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=25997

"GENERATORS – PERMIT REQUIREMENTS Temporary Construction Generators (on skids or trailers AND with tanks < 60 gal.) need no special permits. • Must comply with standard noise requirements and be independent of building power systems. • Must submit Registration Form to SJFD if <55 gal. total is stored on site, or HMBP if >55 gal."

"Permanently mounted Emergency & Stand-by generators need the following approvals:"

This indicates if the generator feeds house wiring, permit required.
If you ran an extension cord under the garage door to power something, probably not.
Not exactly for "construction".
If, inside garage, that extension cord plugged into a generator input it wouldn't be visible. Of course the modification to wiring was supposed to be permitted.

I'm not finding it now, but discussion of ESS said that portable energy systems, like used at events, would be addressed. Certainly electrical and fire safety matters if setting up a system for public events.

So long as your home-built vehicle/trailer housing batteries doesn't start a fire that spreads to your house ... if a charred Fiskar Karma is in your garage I don't think your insurance company can deny fire coverage but if your DIY lithium battery starts the fire maybe they would.

Proposals for future codes:

https://www.seia.org/sites/default/files/JCain%20ESS%20Codes%20and%20Standards%20for%20SPI%20FINAL%202016Sep12.pdf

"Proposal RB171-16 for Future 2018 IRC"
"Unlisted Battery 2nd Use (B2U) outdoors only"

(i.e. repurposed EV batteries)

"Battery systems located outdoors: min. 5 feet from buildings"

I think the interest in reusing electric vehicle batteries for home grid power storage will keep DIY possible.
Locating batteries in a shed 5 feet from the house is good if there is any chance of them catching fire (maybe further would be better.)

 

[fafrd]

San Jose, CA

https://www.sanjoseca.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=25997

"GENERATORS – PERMIT REQUIREMENTS Temporary Construction Generators (on skids or trailers AND with tanks < 60 gal.) need no special permits. • Must comply with standard noise requirements and be independent of building power systems. • Must submit Registration Form to SJFD if <55 gal. total is stored on site, or HMBP if >55 gal."

"Permanently mounted Emergency & Stand-by generators need the following approvals:"

This indicates if the generator feeds house wiring, permit required.
If you ran an extension cord under the garage door to power something, probably not.
Not exactly for "construction".
If, inside garage, that extension cord plugged into a generator input it wouldn't be visible. Of course the modification to wiring was supposed to be permitted.

I'm not finding it now, but discussion of ESS said that portable energy systems, like used at events, would be addressed. Certainly electrical and fire safety matters if setting up a system for public events.

So long as your home-built vehicle/trailer housing batteries doesn't start a fire that spreads to your house ... if a charred Fiskar Karma is in your garage I don't think your insurance company can deny fire coverage but if your DIY lithium battery starts the fire maybe they would.

Proposals for future codes:

https://www.seia.org/sites/default/files/JCain%20ESS%20Codes%20and%20Standards%20for%20SPI%20FINAL%202016Sep12.pdf

"Proposal RB171-16 for Future 2018 IRC"
"Unlisted Battery 2nd Use (B2U) outdoors only"

(i.e. repurposed EV batteries)

"Battery systems located outdoors: min. 5 feet from buildings"

I think the interest in reusing electric vehicle batteries for home grid power storage will keep DIY possible.
Locating batteries in a shed 5 feet from the house is good if there is any chance of them catching fire (maybe further would be better.)

I got into this after extensively reading that the risk of fire caused by LiFePO4 batteries is vanishingly small.

Assuming that to be the case, I’m not concerned about a fire caused by my LiFePO4 battery but rather about the insurance company finding an out on the policy after a fire caused by unrelated reasons because there was unapproved wiring or non-UL equipment installed or whatever.

If there is any real possibility at all of one of these LiFePO4 batteries causing a fire, I’d absolutely want it located outside away from the inhabited structures, but I just don’t believe there is any real risk there (and would probably abandon the project if there were).

So for me it’s more about assuring that nothing I’m putting together can allow the insurance company to escape their obligations in case there is an unrelated fire accident.

And if the easiest way to assure that is to move away from a ‘permanent’ installation to a ‘temporary’ installation wired together with extension cords and possibly located outdoors, that’s worth considering (at least in my case).

I can pretty easily house my LiFePO4 battery and inverter in a portable storage bin (outside, if needed) but really need the DC-coupled PV array to be (permanently) roof-mounted. So perhaps I can get my building department to sign-off on a small off-grid PV-array powering an MPPT charge controller and backup inverter into which a refrigerator can be powered through a 110V plug when needed (ie: several-day fire-risk-related outages).

I would then either need to find an officially-sanctioned outlet for a 24V (28V) DC extension cord between the ‘permanent’ wiring and the ‘temporary’ wiring or I’d just need to tap off the DC in an unofficial DIY manner (bringing back up the fire insurance questions).

If LiFePO4 batteries are as safe as reputed, I just have to believe that the NEC will eventually be updated to reflect this. Lumping all Lithium chemistries together is really pretty brain-dead...

 

[Ampster]

. Lumping all Lithium chemistries together is really pretty brain-dead...

I agree. Unfortunately there is no special interest group that is going to lobby on behalf of DIY LFP batteries. Instead, most of the serious players will scramble to get ESS systems certified.

 

[Pappion]

I agree. Unfortunately there is no special interest group that is going to lobby on behalf of DIY LFP batteries. Instead, most of the serious players will scramble to get ESS systems certified.

Maybe the Escapees and other RV groups will.

 

[HaldorEE]

I got into this after extensively reading that the risk of fire caused by LiFePO4 batteries is vanishingly small.

Assuming that to be the case, I’m not concerned about a fire caused by my LiFePO4 battery but rather about the insurance company finding an out on the policy after a fire caused by unrelated reasons because there was unapproved wiring or non-UL equipment installed or whatever.

If there is any real possibility at all of one of these LiFePO4 batteries causing a fire, I’d absolutely want it located outside away from the inhabited structures, but I just don’t believe there is any real risk there (and would probably abandon the project if there were).

So for me it’s more about assuring that nothing I’m putting together can allow the insurance company to escape their obligations in case there is an unrelated fire accident.

And if the easiest way to assure that is to move away from a ‘permanent’ installation to a ‘temporary’ installation wired together with extension cords and possibly located outdoors, that’s worth considering (at least in my case).

I can pretty easily house my LiFePO4 battery and inverter in a portable storage bin (outside, if needed) but really need the DC-coupled PV array to be (permanently) roof-mounted. So perhaps I can get my building department to sign-off on a small off-grid PV-array powering an MPPT charge controller and backup inverter into which a refrigerator can be powered through a 110V plug when needed (ie: several-day fire-risk-related outages).

I would then either need to find an officially-sanctioned outlet for a 24V (28V) DC extension cord between the ‘permanent’ wiring and the ‘temporary’ wiring or I’d just need to tap off the DC in an unofficial DIY manner (bringing back up the fire insurance questions).

If LiFePO4 batteries are as safe as reputed, I just have to believe that the NEC will eventually be updated to reflect this. Lumping all Lithium chemistries together is really pretty brain-dead...

Makes the hand truck (or even better, a garden wagon), solar power "generator" idea make even more sense.

I could see mounting 7.2kWh of LFP batteries plus a Multiplus and a Solar Charge convertor in a garden wagon like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Sunnydaze-Utility-Removable-Heavy-Duty-Capacity/dp/B01FE2AO22/ref=sr_1_66?dchild=1&keywords=little%2Bred%2Bwagon&qid=1609179918&sr=8-66&th=1

Add some ground mounted (just lay them on the ground) solar panels for recharging would complete the system. I think adding an A frame (modelled after what glass contractors use on their vehicles) to let you store and transport the panels on the cart would make it perfect for portable emergency power. It would be useful both for camping/outdoor events and during extended power outages.

I have been through several power outages and found that after 3 or 4 days, I had to drive to areas that still had power to buy gasoline. I don't believe a gas generator would be very useful in any kind of extended power outage that affects a large area.

 

[HaldorEE]

Renogy makes this mounting system for 100W panels. Has anyone got any experience with them?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Renogy-Aluminum-Solar-Panel-Solar-panel-clip/1001770366

 

[evad]

It is possible to have a UL field inspection. My experience with this involved electrical equipment which were up dated and the new assembly had not been approved as a assembly. These changes were normally done on a weekend and we would get a inspection from a local person who was retired from UL. It seem like the first step might be to find out what the requirements are.

 

[Ampster]

It is possible to have a UL field inspection.

I seem to recall there was a provision for that. It will be interesting to see if that resource becomes economically available.

 

[FilterGuy]

Can someone like a retired UL person provide an acceptable 'listing' of the design as required by the code. I would not think so but it would sure be good if that is possible.