Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

MrM1 said:

It will be interesting to see if the EG4 Lifepowers have trouble with the Magnum as well. I would say it's a 50/50 chance they will.

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Got conformation my order is sitting at the FedEx dock and ready to pick up tomorrow. But have no clue where my inverter is at this moment. It will probably be a week or two before I get everything together and setup. I was told by Ray at Signature soon as I’m ready to give him a call and he will walk me though startup step by step.

I guess if they don’t work I’ll just have work A deal with them to exchange them for the LL models.

I did so much research before I bought these. I couldn’t find a single negative review from YouTube influencers or even just plain old people as myself. I even went far as PMing people on YouTube to ask the personaly months after they have owned them. Also asked about the long wait for shipping not a single negative remark from any of them. I was very hesitant to drop 10k on something from an internet company that I wasn’t going to see for at least two months. it Would be nice if they would take a deposit and payment in full when they ship. They would probably sell even more of them.

SpongeboB Sinewave said:

Just to add another data point...

A co-hort who has installed lots of Sol-Ark inverters and Signature Solar lithium batteries today said that he has not had any issues like this. Or other lithium batteries with other inverter installations.

I am at Intersolar this week. Maybe, if I get the chance, I could ask some of these companies if they have seen this issue before. Growatt and others are here.

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One thing you guys should do is measure current vs. time when voltage is applied to each inverter.
I'm guessing the one that has problems boots up instantly and starts generating output, rather than taking more time at low power for self-test.

I ordered one of the LifePower4 batteries from sig solar to pair with the 5k Growatt inverter/charge Controller. The battery is on back order, I'm supposed to be picking it up beginning of March. @MrM1 pointed me in the direction of this thread. Its pretty worrying, condolences to the people affected by this.

I'm totally new to solar, hence why I bought a 'plug and play' system. I've read this whole thread and think I've grasped it. There is a problem with the BMS and resistor.

What do people think I should do? Obviously I don't want a dud battery. Shall I cancel the order and look for a different battery? Or is this an irrational decision.

Do the batteries work fine with Growatt? Is it a fault with the BMS and resistor or is the battery just not compatible with certain inverters.

I've tried to contact customer support a couple of times for a different reason and haven't being able to get through. I guess they are all hands on deck trying to sort this out.

JamesHird said:

What do people think I should do? Obviously I don't want a dud battery. Shall I cancel the order and look for a different battery? Or is this an irrational decision.

Do the batteries work fine with Growatt? Is it a fault with the BMS and resistor or is the battery just not compatible with certain inverters.

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I suspect it is a problem the inverter manufacturer can fix with a firmware update (or hopefully a user-settable parameter.)
If the inverter waited a few seconds after battery voltages is applied before drawing significant power, that should allow any precharge circuit to compete its job.

@JamesHird I'm guessing it will be just fine with the Growatt inverter. That's a brand they sell and the batteries are supposed to even talk to them, so surely they have tested that well. Be nice if they would tell you that though...

Hedges said:

I suspect it is a problem the inverter manufacturer can fix with a firmware update (or hopefully a user-settable parameter.)
If the inverter waited a few seconds after battery voltages is applied before drawing significant power, that should allow any precharge circuit to compete its job.

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I doubt seriously Schneider is going to issue a firmware up because of one battery-powered manufacturer. Their whole business model seems to be structured around the pro installed not the DIYer. They're not going to issue a fix based on a few outlier cases

When Schneider had problems with stackability of their SW line, the opted to discontinue stacking rather than fix the firmware

But I honestly still don't see this as a inverter firmware problem

MrM1 said:

I doubt seriously Schneider is going to issue a firmware up because of one battery-powered manufacturer. Their whole business model seems to be structured around the pro installed not the DIYer. They're not going to issue a fix based on a few outlier cases

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If my guess is correct, it could be a problem with many batteries having a precharge circuit.
Perhaps they have a couple lithium batteries in mind for pro installers?
But if performance is on the edge for those batteries and causes problems for a number of their customers, it would have to be fixed.
It may vary with battery cable resistance, and how much/how long BMS tolerates overcurrent (for those with no precharge circuit.)

MrM1 said:

But I honestly still don't see this as a inverter firmware problem

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What do you think is the root cause of the problem?

BMS and resistor. If you took that out there would not be a problem. If a user is concerned about blowing capacitors they can use an external resistor

JamesHird said:

I ordered one of the LifePower4 batteries from sig solar to pair with the 5k Growatt inverter/charge Controller. The battery is on back order, I'm supposed to be picking it up beginning of March. @MrM1 pointed me in the direction of this thread. Its pretty worrying, condolences to the people affected by this.

I'm totally new to solar, hence why I bought a 'plug and play' system. I've read this whole thread and think I've grasped it. There is a problem with the BMS and resistor.

What do people think I should do? Obviously I don't want a dud battery. Shall I cancel the order and look for a different battery? Or is this an irrational decision.

Do the batteries work fine with Growatt? Is it a fault with the BMS and resistor or is the battery just not compatible with certain inverters.

I've tried to contact customer support a couple of times for a different reason and haven't being able to get through. I guess they are all hands on deck trying to sort this out.

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I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you should work just fine with your inverter. It’s us guys that have the huge heavy old iron with big copper coils and caps that need to worry.

Think of it like this. If my 6 don’t work for me I’ll return them and they can send one to you. Hopefully they will still have 6 of the LL’s in stock that I can upgrade to.

I can duplicate exactly what @Koldsimer has described with his XW using my SW and holding the pre charge resistor button I installed . My SW does exactly what he describes until I let go of the button

Mr-Sandman said:

@JamesHird I'm guessing it will be just fine with the Growatt inverter. That's a brand they sell and the batteries are supposed to even talk to them, so surely they have tested that well. Be nice if they would tell you that though...

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You would think so

MrM1 said:

BMS and resistor. If you took that out there would not be a problem. If a user is concerned about blowing capacitors they can use an external resistor

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Yes, if BMS bypassed and cells connected directly to inverter, it would draw a few thousand amps surge and come up.
Given a BMS, transistors might get damaged. Over-current protection designed in. Maybe some BMS can handle it.
One guy has GigaVac contactor between his lithium battery and Sunny Island, had problems welding contacts.

You might fix it with a heavier duty BMS.
I think the answer is for inverter to not draw power until some delay after voltage is applied (or better yet handshaking).
I think that needs to be part of the new generation systems with lithium and BMS. Lead-acid didn't require BMS, so not a problem.

Likely high frequency inverters have smaller caps. Also, a boost converter, which ramps up current over time. So problems less likely.

Jack Rabbit Off Grid said:

Think of it like this. If my 6 don’t work for me I’ll return them and they can send one to you. Hopefully they will still have 6 of the LL’s in stock that I can upgrade to.

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I might take you up on this, beats waiting till March to get my battery.

Oh by the way - just applying AC to a toroid transformer causes a huge current surge for a moment. Enough to trip breakers, so slow-blow or soft start circuit recommended.

The top low-frequency inverters have large silicon-steel toroid transformers (instead of conventional "E" core), because they're the most efficient. And enough transistors to deliver surge current.
Sunny Island for instance specs 180A (at 120V) for a couple cycles. That would be 450A at 48V. So whatever the transformer wants it can deliver.
An inverter could soft-start its AC waveform into the transformer when first starting, if the firmware cared to do so.

The start-up current, not just capacitor charging, could cause problems for BMS. Well-behaved inverter should be part of the system solution.

Hedges said:

Yes, if BMS bypassed and cells connected directly to inverter, it would draw a few thousand amps surge and come up.
Given a BMS, transistors might get damaged. Over-current protection designed in. Maybe some BMS can handle it.
One guy has GigaVac contactor between his lithium battery and Sunny Island, had problems welding contacts.

You might fix it with a heavier duty BMS.
I think the answer is for inverter to not draw power until some delay after voltage is applied (or better yet handshaking).
I think that needs to be part of the new generation systems with lithium and BMS. Lead-acid didn't require BMS, so not a problem.

Likely high frequency inverters have smaller caps. Also, a boost converter, which ramps up current over time. So problems less likely.

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So your saying this should be measurably with an inrush clamp meter (within the limits of the meter) at inverter start up on the DC side with no AC loads on the inverter?

I tried to measure capacitor charge inrush with my HF clamp ammeter and didn't get anything. That meter may only do inrush on AC setting (which I also tried, on battery cable, unsuccessfully.)

I think the inrush current charging capacitors is too brief for inrush meters, which look for peak value of a 60 Hz (16 ms) sine wave.

An inductive clamp (AC current transformer) or Hall effect DC probe used with scope could work.
My current transformer is rated for 100A. I've used it on battery cable to measure ripple current.
One AC/DC clamp probe at work is 30A.
There are probably probes of suitable amperage and bandwidth.

I think my DIY approach would be to pass inverter battery cable through a suitable toroid transformer (one or more times), and short out one of the windings of the toroid transformer. That makes it a current transformer, with greatly reduced current.

If none of its windings are suitable number of turns, just use it as a core. Pass battery cable through it 5 turns. Wind 50 turns of 10 awg, and short it out. Put 100A current transformer around the 10 awg. So 1000A surge in battery cable becomes 100A in 10 awg becomes whatever output from current transformer (300 mV for mine.)

Test the configuration with about 100A AC through 5 turns of an AC circuit first, confirm 10A detected in 10 awg winding, 30 mV in current transformer. That "calibrates" it, at least assuming it remains linear for a pulse of current 10x as high.

Maybe I'll try that on my "test rig", which I don't mind unbolting a cable from to feed through the toroid. (Split cores are more convenient.)

You will only see the inrush current with a scope.
In the olde days real men installing these things were not frightened by a spark, lead acid batteries had enough internal resistance to limit the kick and if anything blew up the after sales/install support would have a new unit out to you (the professional installer) next day. BTW that battery/inverter connection was never opened again.
Now we have annoying DIY softies who keep messing with connecting/ disconnecting/ fiddling with stuff, powerful but delicate batteries and control systems bought for the cost of a burger !!!! And when things go wrong, we sulk in public and demand a fix yesterday

You all need to give Signature Solar a break, I am 100% sure they will find a fix with helpful suggestions from here and the OEM.
It will take some time to make sure another problem is not caused by the fix.

Quattrohead said:

You will only see the inrush current with a scope.
In the olde days real men installing these things were not frightened by a spark, lead acid batteries had enough internal resistance to limit the kick and if anything blew up the after sales/install support would have a new unit out to you (the professional installer) next day. BTW that battery/inverter connection was never opened again.

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That's funny.

Quattrohead said:

Now we have annoying DIY softies who keep messing with connecting/ disconnecting/ fiddling with stuff, powerful but delicate batteries and control systems bought for the cost of a burger !!!! And when things go wrong, we sulk in public and demand a fix yesterday

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Not sure what that has to do with this case. I've installed two fully functioning systems that have worked without an issue for 14 months so i'm no "diy softie" that keeps messing with stuff. I bought Schneider, Midnite and Lg equipment- i buy professional grade gear and have a reasonable expectation of performance and service.

Quattrohead said:

You all need to give Signature Solar a break, I am 100% sure they will find a fix with helpful suggestions from here and the OEM.
It will take some time to make sure another problem is not caused by the fix.

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I really feel like I tried to communicate with them and give them a chance but it seems i was getting more help here. They basically stopped answering my emails and they wouldn't return my calls. I understand this is a complex issue with no easy answers and they are busy but that doesn't excuse the lack of communication on their part.

I'm calling Ray this morning and I hope we can figure something out.

We all get how frustrating this is. I am being cheeky but trying to point out the bigger picture. Not being personal to you Kold.
And yes, all companies should understand any communication is better than none.
We all know the silent argument with "her indoors" is worse than the shout it out and then make up sex !!!!