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California Members: NEM3.0 impact on NEM1/2 customers and what to do?

Peak draw is NOT in the evening. It is in mid-afternoon. The "Duck's Back" curve is a lie.
Ducks Back curve is total draw on the grid minus PV.
I do not agree that the duck curve is a lie, but I agree with what I think you are saying is that the consumption number is Net of any rooftop solar production during the day. Therefore it is misleading to those that do not understand that important factore. The ISO which publishes that graph and who probably named it, has no easy way to estimate the rooftop production like it can meaure the output of large solar farms. As a result the ramp up during the neck of the duck curve is steeper that the actual consumption because of the decline in rooftop solar late in the afternoon.
 
Those comments (Hedges) are based on current rules.

Seems like utilities are grasping for power during on-peak (4p-9p) and could change what is allowed. Shifting the battery cost and implementation to retail customers could benefit the utility. And depends on rate adjustments.

If there is a fee attached as a minimum charge just for the privilege of having solar could make keeping a system an economic loser.

Future technology is unknown.
 
Peak draw is NOT in the evening. It is in mid-afternoon.
I should have worded it better. The biggest demand on the utility is now later in the afternoon and into the evening.

What Duck's Back curve means is that PV is crucial to supplying the grid; it would collapse without us.
Yes that is true. As more and more people put in solar, the utilities quit adding capacity. Furthermore, they started shutting down peaker plants. (A lot of this was driven by Sacramento). Now CA is in a really weird place. On some summer days, the wholesale price of power actually goes negative and utilities pay other states to take power off their hands. However, on really hot summer days there is not enough power and not enough peaker plants so they have to do rolling black-outs.

Grid-scale batteries would be a solution to these problems, but we are decades away from having anything at the scale that would be needed. CA has some of the largest grid batteries in the world but they can only help keep the grid stable during transitions from one energy source to another. They can't even replace peaker plants yet.

I am all for going to renewable and non-carbon energy but I hate it when it is done in stupid ways. Also, I have taken great advantage of government subsidies, but to truly make sense, any energy source needs to survive without subsidies. (That included oil).
 
Unless things have changed, utility will likely not allow you to charge off-peak and sell to them.
I know that people who received SGIP grant funds are on some kind of "paired storage" arrangement where the utility scrutinizes the amount of energy sold back. I do not know the details but I have often wondered how they would know for someone like me who is not part of a paired storage arrangement. Also with the growth of Virtual Power Plants I wonder how that figures into it. I have heard some people getting as much as $1.00 per kWh for VPP participation. I also wonder if the VPP arrangement means the participant or aggregator has to satisfy some requirement about the source of that energy?
Also, federal credits require 100% of charging to be from PV.
Speaking of that, as mentioned above, if VPPs become more prevalent, I wonder how that might affect the incentive to charge from the grid and sell back at peak. As far as I know the loss of the tax credit is proportional to the percentage that you charge from solar. I do not know the details and will be curious whether the VPP payments will be taxable income.
 
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I really should pay closer attention to what PG&E is doing to me.

I think I figured out my confusion. They aren't taking me off of NEM 1.0 but they are taking away the wonderful rate plan I have had for 15 years.
That makes more sense. I'm frankly surprised you were able to keep the same rate plan for as long as you did. It's clear that rate plan engineering is how PG&E plans to maximize revenue from EV and solar owners via frequent changes of TOU rate plans targeting EV and solar owners. They can't screw around with the standard rate plan as much since it's used by most people. They bumped me off the EV-A rate plan but I was able to switch to E-1 which has been more stable and beneficial as long as you stay out of the high tier.
 
Shifting the battery cost and implementation to retail customers could benefit the utility.
Yes, given that some participants in Virtual Power Plants are reporting payments of $1.00 per kWh it is conceivably far better to have the consumer demand ramp up more slowly to put less stress on the grid than pay high rates for peak power.
 
It is my belief that the only criteria the IRS uses for batteries is that they be "new" and that they be charged from solar
I've got the same impression from my readings. I'm not a tax guru, but I'd say GXMnow can probably write of everything purchased new, including wiring, tools, the PLC, tool box he built into a battery cabinet if it was purchased new.
 
I really should pay closer attention to what PG&E is doing to me.

I think I figured out my confusion. They aren't taking me off of NEM 1.0 but they are taking away the wonderful rate plan I have had for 15 years.

For the past 15 years, my time-of-day billing had the peak rate at mid-day. That meant I was selling my solar energy for peak prices at mid-day and buying low-cost energy in the evening. It has been a very sweet deal for me. Even though I produce less than I use, my bill has been the min $10 payment they started imposing a few years back. (My system has paid for itself several times over)

Fast forward 15 years. There is now so much solar that the power company does not sell as much mid-day and the peak draw on the grid is in the evening. My rate plan is changing to reflect this. Now I will be selling cheaper power and buying more expensive power. My bills will be going up...... I probably still can't justify batteries for my home economically..... but I might do it anyway. The main thing holding me back is the hassle of the wiring. My meter box is built into my main service panel and is in a bad location for adding a critical loads box. That means the wiring to add batteries will be a PITA and I probably have to get PG&E out to do it.
Ahhh, so you just getting impacted in 2023 by the shift to new TOU window that began affecting most of us NEM1 customers in 2021.

In 2020 my peak window was 12-6pm over summer months weekdays.

In 2021 it shifted to 3-8pm over summer month weekdays.

This year it shifted to 4-9pm over summer month weekdays.

Starting on January 1,2023, it will be 4-9pm every day all year long.

The cost impact will be less than you think and my advice for you is to wait until it becomes clear how NEM3 will be working before making any decisions.

In 2028 you will be lived to NEM3 and that is going to have a far, far more negative impact on your 2007-era system than the shift in TOU hours.

NEM3 allows installation of a PV array sized to produce up to 150% of annual consumption (1.5x that of NEM1), so the easiest way of thinking about an upgrade is to add another array size ~50% of the current array.

DC-couple that array into an SCC charging a 5.1kWh battery and you are most of the way to being prepared for NEM3.

Marry that battery to an ESS such as the Schneider Conext XW Pro and you can both absorb excess AC-coupled production that would otherwise be getting exported when it’s not worth anything and offset up to 4kW of peak-period and overnight consumption.

If you don’t have space for more PV panels, the alternative is to upgrade your 2007-era panels for modern panels that are likely to be 150% the power if not 200%.

You’ve got 5 years, so join the club (I’ve got 14).
 
That makes more sense. I'm frankly surprised you were able to keep the same rate plan for as long as you did.

It's clear that rate plan engineering is how PG&E plans to maximize revenue from EV and solar owners via frequent changes of TOU rate plans targeting EV and solar owners. They can't screw around with the standard rate plan as much since it's used by most people. They bumped me off the EV-A rate plan but I was able to switch to E-1 which has been more stable and beneficial as long as you stay out of the high tier.
Uhhh, pretty sure all customers (with a few exceptions) will be on TOU rateplans starting January 1.

PG&E is moving all customers to 4-9pm Every Day starting on January 1.

EV rates are specific to EV owners (solar or non) but there are no rate plans specific to solar.
 
I was allowed to install 200% of current consumption, at least for CEC rebate, back around 2003 under NEM 1.0, and PG&E didn't question.

What I've read was, "If you like your NEM 1.0 or 2.0 plan, you can keep it." Also a carrot to entice switching voluntarily to 3.0, some kind of rebate or premium for battery. And, "We have authority to change the plan we previously said was locked in for 20 years, but we aren't going to do that."

Previous years, net metering with PV meant you were forced onto TOU. If all customers do now get moved to TOU, that may prompt them to program A/C to start cooling house earlier in the day.

The new TOU hours have made less impact because off-peak rates are a large percentage of on-peak. I over produce, so that covers my on-peak and off-peak usage. NEM 3.0 could kill that, may need a battery that short cycles to match production to on/off cycling of consumption. That takes care of intra-day, but not electric heating in the winter. Think I'll just go back to burning natural gas.
 
I was allowed to install 200% of current consumption, at least for CEC rebate, back around 2003 under NEM 1.0, and PG&E didn't question.

What I've read was, "If you like your NEM 1.0 or 2.0 plan, you can keep it." Also a carrot to entice switching voluntarily to 3.0, some kind of rebate or premium for battery. And, "We have authority to change the plan we previously said was locked in for 20 years, but we aren't going to do that."

Previous years, net metering with PV meant you were forced onto TOU. If all customers do now get moved to TOU, that may prompt them to program A/C to start cooling house earlier in the day.

The new TOU hours have made less impact because off-peak rates are a large percentage of on-peak. I over produce, so that covers my on-peak and off-peak usage. NEM 3.0 could kill that, may need a battery that short cycles to match production to on/off cycling of consumption. That takes care of intra-day, but not electric heating in the winter. Think I'll just go back to burning natural gas.
My reading is much like yours.

And the Utilites have always been pretty lax about letting you install as much PV as you want, they just required you to provide an attestation of anticipated future consumption to do so.

If you already produce 200% of annual consumption, you should be able to skate-through relatively unscathed by adding an ESS &!battery sized to offset overnight consumption.

If you’ve got much higher overnight consumption in winter due to electric heating, that may change the equation enough to result in more significant impact of NEM3, but it should all be pretty predictable and should translate to needing a bit more AC-coupled or DC-coupled PV to assure paltry over-summer credits are sufficient to offset wintertime consumption (beyond the minimum annual delivery charge of ~$180…).
 
...until we do...
I’ll be surprised is we see any change in grandfather term at this stage before the next review and NEM program adjustment in ~2028.

But from what almost happened last December, all NEM1 and NEM2 customers should be prepared for an abrupt shift to NEM3 before their 20-year grandfather period has expired…
 
Uhhh, pretty sure all customers (with a few exceptions) will be on TOU rateplans starting January 1.

PG&E is moving all customers to 4-9pm Every Day starting on January 1.

Where do you see that? They have been doing automatic transition to TOU rate plans for "many" (i.e. not all) customers over the last couple years. When I was bumped off EV-A they suggested another TOU rate plan but I chose E-1 and haven't see any notice for TOU transition which they are required to notify 90 days in advance. Tiered rate plans will continue as far as I know.
 
Where do you see that? They have been doing automatic transition to TOU rate plans for "many" (i.e. not all) customers over the last couple years. When I was bumped off EV-A they suggested another TOU rate plan but I chose E-1 and haven't see any notice for TOU transition which they are required to notify 90 days in advance. Tiered rate plans will continue as far as I know.
I guess you are correct that they seem to be allowing any customer to remain on their tiered rate plan if they so choose: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti.../time-of-use-plan/time-of-use-transition.page

‘Beginning October 2020 and lasting through 2022, many PG&E residential customers will automatically transition to the Time-of-Use (Peak Pricing 4-9 p.m. Every Day) rate plan, risk-free. The transition to Time-of-Use rate plans supports California’s ongoing commitment to clean energy.


Customers will be notified 90 days in advance that their electric service will transition to the Time-of-Use (Peak Pricing 4-9 p.m. Every Day) rate plan. They can then choose to stay on their current rate plan, pick another rate plan that is best for their household, or elect to transition to Time-of-Use.’

But I believe somewhere in the CPUC December Decision is a mandate to move all customers to TOU plans over some period like the next 5 years (with ever-dwindling exceptions).
 
When I was bumped off EV-A they suggested another TOU rate plan but I chose E-1 and haven't see any notice for TOU transition which they are required to notify 90 days in advance. Tiered rate plans will continue as far as I know.
Why were you bumped from the EV rate plan?
 
I guess you are correct that they seem to be allowing any customer to remain on their tiered rate plan if they so choose: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti.../time-of-use-plan/time-of-use-transition.page

‘Beginning October 2020 and lasting through 2022, many PG&E residential customers will automatically transition to the Time-of-Use (Peak Pricing 4-9 p.m. Every Day) rate plan, risk-free. The transition to Time-of-Use rate plans supports California’s ongoing commitment to clean energy.


Customers will be notified 90 days in advance that their electric service will transition to the Time-of-Use (Peak Pricing 4-9 p.m. Every Day) rate plan. They can then choose to stay on their current rate plan, pick another rate plan that is best for their household, or elect to transition to Time-of-Use.’

But I believe somewhere in the CPUC December Decision is a mandate to move all customers to TOU plans over some period like the next 5 years (with ever-dwindling exceptions).
From the December Decision:

Evaluation of the Successor Tariff

Previously, this decision stated that the successor tariff will be evaluated, with an emphasis on evaluating equity, affordability, and grid benefits. Below, this decision describes the intentions of the evaluation.
The evaluation will collect three years of data after full implementation of the successor tariff and will follow a similar process as conducted in the Lookback Study, reviewing the entire successor tariff but with a focus on affordability, equity, and grid benefits. Given the Commission’s desire to promote solar paired with storage, this decision adds to the evaluation an analysis of battery dispatch trends.’

There is a target/schedule to have the Successor Tariff fully-implemented 12- month’s after this Decrmber’s decision, so 3-years of data collection should take until December 2026 and it’s exceedingly unlikely any analysis, deliberation, and decision to shorten the NEM1 and NEM2 grandfather periods would be finalized in less than another 12-months after that.

So we NEM1 and NEM2 customers probably have little to worry about as far as our grandfather periods being shortened before early 2028…
 
San Jose Power was going to automatically scoop up customers, consumers first and PV producers second. I opted out, because they didn't offer a better deal than PG&E. If they were willing to pay/credit significantly more for my valuable PV generated power I would have considered it.

Because I installed excessive PV, I put in an electric duct heater (resistance element) to burn off surplus. Even if credits are a reasonable fraction of charges, could make sense to continue using. But if off-peak credits are a small fraction of off-peak retail, such that it doesn't cover my consumption, electric heat is no longer cost effective compared to gas, not even if I use heat pump. I don't understand the NEM 3.0 credits, something about avoided costs and transitions. I'm sure they're not including avoided cost for power plants and transmission lines they aren't building. Don't know if they will be high enough to be worthwhile or not.

I'll run resistance heating while it makes sense, may put a mini-split in my workshop. Will probably go back to burning gas if NEM 3.0 is imposed and does what I expect. It is just flip of a switch for me.

Batteries may make sense for me to smooth out export/import during the day. Or not, if I'm a net exporter even with A/C running, which I think is the case.
 
San Jose Power was going to automatically scoop up customers, consumers first and PV producers second. I opted out, because they didn't offer a better deal than PG&E. If they were willing to pay/credit significantly more for my valuable PV generated power I would have considered it.

Because I installed excessive PV, I put in an electric duct heater (resistance element) to burn off surplus. Even if credits are a reasonable fraction of charges, could make sense to continue using. But if off-peak credits are a small fraction of off-peak retail, such that it doesn't cover my consumption, electric heat is no longer cost effective compared to gas, not even if I use heat pump. I don't understand the NEM 3.0 credits, something about avoided costs and transitions. I'm sure they're not including avoided cost for power plants and transmission lines they aren't building. Don't know if they will be high enough to be worthwhile or not.

I'll run resistance heating while it makes sense, may put a mini-split in my workshop. Will probably go back to burning gas if NEM 3.0 is imposed and does what I expect. It is just flip of a switch for me.

Batteries may make sense for me to smooth out export/import during the day. Or not, if I'm a net exporter even with A/C running, which I think is the case.
I’m still on gas central heating, gas clothes dryer, gas water heater and gas range.

Was planning to replace them with electric / heat pumps as they fail, but interested to understand from your experience which have a chance of being competitive with free/wholesale PV power available and which do not.

The way the export credit system will work under NEM 3.0 is very unclear.

Turns out this chart you referenced from the article I found is actually in the CPUC decision document (page A2):

7E097F9D-F454-4E15-8870-4865259AFBE4.png

And from the text it is clear they intend to have differing hourly export rates:

‘You will receive bill credits at a set price per unit (kilowatt-hour) of based on the electricity’s value to the electric grid in each hour of the day. The price will usually be lower than what you pay for a kilowatt-hour of electricity.’

It’s not clear to me yet whether the export credits you accrue in any one-month period will be credited against monthly charges or merely accrue into a NEM balance.

It is clear that they are planning to only compensate whatever generation they consider to be ‘in excess of consumption’ at the same wholesale rate they use today:

Monthly Payments and Net Surplus Compensation

Even though installing solar can reduce your electricity costs, most Net Billing customers will still pay electric bills in most months of the year. In months when there are excess solar bill credits, the credits will roll over to following months, until they are used up or it is time for your annual “true-up.” Though it's rare, if you export more electricity than you import in a 12-month period, you will be paid “net surplus compensation” of a few cents per excess kilowatt-hour. Because this rate is so low, it is generally not in your financial interest to install a solar system that produces much more energy than you use.’

There are a few aspects that are confusing about this language, not the least of which is that they make it sound like exporting more annual electricity than you import will be the exception rather than the rule for NEM 3.0 customers while at the same time stating customers will be authorized and even encouraged to install PV systems sized to generate 150% of annual consumption (meaning most every NEM 3.0 customer will export more annual electricity than they consume).

Also, the Net Surplus Compensation for customers Trueing Up in December was $0.05878: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/comm...s/green-energy-incentives/AB920_RateTable.pdf

That is more than double the export compensation rate indicated on the graph for export between 10am and 3pm.

So what happens at True-Up and whether mid-day export is valued above or below Net Surplus Compensation rates needs to be made clear before we can understand what the Successor Tariff will really mean…
 
Was planning to replace them with electric / heat pumps as they fail, but interested to understand from your experience which have a chance of being competitive with free/wholesale PV power available and which do not.

I saw a reference to gas prices skyrocketing, but haven't since confirmed that to be the case. Only if they go up by a factor of several times, together with DIY cost of PV, might electric be cheaper than gas.

If someone can raise the price of natural gas on us, then it might happen. Probably only when they get gasoline consumption down, since natural gas is partly coming from oil wells?



I only did electric heat because I had surplus. One year I slipped up on managing electric vs. gas and got a $700 bill. But usually I keep electric down to just the $10 or so minimum fee, and gas similar. Back when I was heating with gas, think it was around $70/month in winter.
 
Received this notice from SoCalGas back on the 13th:

"SoCalGas can help customers prepare for and navigate the upcoming colder weather and the potential increasing cost of energy.
During this winter season, customers may be receiving higher bills due to several factors including the cost of energy. Peak winter bills are expected to increase by 25-30% compared to the 2021-2022 season. This increase is due to continued higher price of natural gas and increases in transportation rates. "
 
I’m still on gas central heating, gas clothes dryer, gas water heater and gas range.

Was planning to replace them with electric / heat pumps as they fail, but interested to understand from your experience which have a chance of being competitive with free/wholesale PV power available and which do not.
I saw a reference to gas prices skyrocketing, but haven't since confirmed that to be the case. Only if they go up by a factor of several times, together with DIY cost of PV, might electric be cheaper than gas.

Same: I’m still on gas central heating, gas clothes dryer, gas water heater

I'm doing a big whole-house remodel and have been thinking about transitioning everything to electric, especially to heat-pumps for hot water, dryer, and heating. From what I understand, the new units are really efficient and compete with gas on cost, especially when using solar... or is that incorrect?

I'd say 50% of my decision to go "all electric" is for environmental reasons and 50% is for financial reasons.
 

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