I fear Magnum is done.

sunshine_eggo said:

When was the last time this happened? My neighbor has tried all avenues and rarely gets a call answered or a return email.

Does your MS4024PAE drop to 58.3Hz output for several hours every day and then go back to 60Hz?



Cool. How would you address the above issue?

Click to expand...

I now have a reliable connection I can PM you had s number. He always calls back within a day or same day.

Ditto to the above posts ... email always seemed to get responses ... checking my email history, my last email round, however, was 11/2021 (8 months prior to early thread dates), asking about THD from gen into inverter, and answered within 24 hours (some back and forth emails). I just haven't had many issues since initial setup. The frequency thing ... never seen it here.

I also admit to not having any kind of 24hr "power quality" monitoring solution in place ... I can spot-check with DMM, and try to review UPS (apc smart software), but don't have anything better at the moment. Open to suggestions on what should be implemented to monitor all power quality items and gather data (in my off-grid scenario, and with my inverter/mppt type).

How to address neighbor's issue is the usual ... lots of online research at many forums and other sources ...

https:// diysolarforum.com/threads/sunny-boy-frequency-shift-regulation-of-power-output-which-models-work-per-spec.6004/

firmware levels (these things have several levels of software, if I recall correctly), and perhaps his ME-ARC (if in the mix) is different than mine ... settings, so more variables to sort through.

Get some power quality test equipment in there (if justified, and reasonably available) ... a great problem definition and proof (not just neighbor's statements) is half the battle.

discuss with an EE (if you can find one ... not many available on forums, but perhaps other, local sources?)

such (deep) research and "troubleshooting" seems to be a dying art? Even with you helping your neighbor, problem determination and troubleshooting to root cause isn't easy, and it has to be done methodically. From your posts, I believe you would do so ... whereas with/through a neighbor, even with you guiding?

And the problem itself? the grid has a range of frequency (and other power quality metrics) they are "allowed" to rise or fall to, even though they strive to keep it at 60hz ... what does any inverter company say about the same "range" of output; what are their "allowances"? Not just magnum, but all of them ...

Hope this doesn't sound inflammatory ... just trying to brainstorm ...

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Ditto to the above posts ... email always seemed to get responses ... checking my email history, my last email round, however, was 11/2021 (8 months prior to early thread dates), asking about THD from gen into inverter, and answered within 24 hours (some back and forth emails). I just haven't had many issues since initial setup. The frequency thing ... never seen it here.

I also admit to not having any kind of 24hr "power quality" monitoring solution in place ... I can spot-check with DMM, and try to review UPS (apc smart software), but don't have anything better at the moment. Open to suggestions on what should be implemented to monitor all power quality items and gather data (in my off-grid scenario, and with my inverter/mppt type).

Click to expand...

Stand alone inverter completely off grid.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

How to address neighbor's issue is the usual ... lots of online research at many forums and other sources ...

https:// diysolarforum.com/threads/sunny-boy-frequency-shift-regulation-of-power-output-which-models-work-per-spec.6004/

Click to expand...

N/A - no frequency shifting for grid tie or AC coupling.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

firmware levels (these things have several levels of software, if I recall correctly), and perhaps his ME-ARC (if in the mix) is different than mine ... settings, so more variables to sort through.

Click to expand...

That's been discussed with Magnum. Essentially, he finally gets in touch with someone, they say, "that's really weird, I'm going to have to get with Engineering," and then he never hears back.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Get some power quality test equipment in there (if justified, and reasonably available) ... a great problem definition and proof (not just neighbor's statements) is half the battle.

Click to expand...

Kill-a-watt plugged in 24/7 to at least monitor it real time, and he loses 7-8 minutes per day on all clocks that are frequency dependent.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

discuss with an EE (if you can find one ... not many available on forums, but perhaps other, local sources?)

Click to expand...

Rural area. Hard to find folks with full sets of teeth, let alone one with an EE.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

such (deep) research and "troubleshooting" seems to be a dying art? Even with you helping your neighbor, problem determination and troubleshooting to root cause isn't easy, and it has to be done methodically. From your posts, I believe you would do so ... whereas with/through a neighbor, even with you guiding?

Click to expand...

I've been down this road, and I've personally invested several hours of diagnostic/research time over several months. This thing exhibited this behavior from day 1.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

And the problem itself? the grid has a range of frequency (and other power quality metrics) they are "allowed" to rise or fall to, even though they strive to keep it at 60hz ... what does any inverter company say about the same "range" of output; what are their "allowances"? Not just magnum, but all of them ...

Click to expand...

The only "grid" present is the one formed by the Magnum itself. The nearest power pole is two 40 acre parcels away.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Hope this doesn't sound inflammatory ... just trying to brainstorm ...

Click to expand...

Nope.

It keeps coming down to there being no external reason this is happening. The vendor has no clue, and the first line folks at Magnum have no clue and claim to escalate it, but it just dies.

I had a hard time picking out the exact problems in this:

"Multiple calls and emails about a mysterious drop to 58.3Hz from 60Hz for several hours on some days unless he's pulling a heavy load on another inverter attached to the same bank running his well pump. On days he doesn't run his well pump, he loses 7-8 minutes on many of his clocks that are 60Hz dependent."

Can you/he break it down better for us?

Not sure a kill-o-watt is the right tool ... but, who has access to a (fluke) PQM in his area? Can he ask/pay the local grid folks to come monitor for a few days? Some electrician?

I looked around ... don't think I have any clocks that are still frequency-based, and would lose some time if frequency drifted ... all mine are digital (wall-wart, so range they accept is huge).

Does neighbor have "older" clocks, the kind that plug in? Is this the "big" problem for him, or how else is frequency drift causing grief? Other equipment being affected? This problem (once I can break it down) will make my troubleshooting list ...

I see a number of the Magnum units on Amazon now. I am running two Magnum mspae 4448 inverters. They have ran rock solid for the year I have owned them. I use around 30kw a day through the Magnums. The Magnum expandability is really great. I am running two Magnums networked together and you can hook up 4 to provide over 12kw of power. One of my two Magnums basically just idles and waits for some high current equipment to turn on like my hot tub.

The thing I really love about the Magnums is that you do not have to do anything. You do not need to be babysitting them or switching this off or that off. When I have low battery voltage and it switches to the grid then the inverters automatically go to standby and soon as the solar charges the battery voltage high enough then the inverters switch on with a slight light flicker and that is it.

When I am on the grid due to low solar then the inverters are drawing idle current from the batteries. I never have to worry about the inverters sucking the batteries dry because the idle current is so low. I have not been able to measure the current draw with my Victron Smart Shunt because it is so low.

I have not needed repair and if I do then I will probably pick up another Magnum since I like them so well.

I am currently running the whole house off of the Magnums and not using any grid power. I currently am running a hot tub and a pool pump in the summer for the big energy drains.

I have done electronic repair all of my life so cracking open a Magnum is not something that I am afraid of. It sounds like I would be able to get most anything I need off of Ebay. Typically, I do not usually contact any service facility.

I do not regret purchasing my Magnums at all. I guess I am one of those Magnum dinosaurs because I love my Magnums.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

I had a hard time picking out the exact problems in this:

"Multiple calls and emails about a mysterious drop to 58.3Hz from 60Hz for several hours on some days unless he's pulling a heavy load on another inverter attached to the same bank running his well pump. On days he doesn't run his well pump, he loses 7-8 minutes on many of his clocks that are 60Hz dependent."

Can you/he break it down better for us?

Click to expand...

He also has a Sigineer 24V/6kW on the same bank for the well pump. They aren't connected in any other way. He didn't have sufficient PV to power that pump, but he can offset about 70% of it. When he'd run the pump for about an hour, it would draw the battery down even at peak PV and delay the time the battery hit absorption voltage (2X Outback FM-80), and sometimes 58.3Hz wouldn't happen. On other days when the pump wasn't ran, the Magnum would drop to 58.3Hz at the approximate time the battery hit absorption voltage and would stay at 58.3Hz for about 6-8 hours.

He's since installed a smaller pump (2hp) and enough PV to fully power the pump AND charge batteries, I don't know if it's still happening on pump days, and he doesn't know off the top of his head, so he's going to document it the next time he pumps (typically only 1-2 days/week). He expects it is because resetting clocks is a daily event.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Not sure a kill-o-watt is the right tool ... but, who has access to a (fluke) PQM in his area? Can he ask/pay the local grid folks to come monitor for a few days? Some electrician?

Click to expand...

I trust a kill-a-watt to report a frequency value. He actually has two. One in the pump house with the inverter and one in the kitchen. They are always in agreement. He's also confirmed it with a Klein CL800. I've confirmed it with my Fluke 116.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

I looked around ... don't think I have any clocks that are still frequency-based, and would lose some time if frequency drifted ... all mine are digital (wall-wart, so range they accept is huge).

Click to expand...

Microwave clock (2 year old Panasonic Inverter microwave). Oven clock. Bose clock radio - pretty much all the clocks in the kitchen.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Does neighbor have "older" clocks, the kind that plug in? Is this the "big" problem for him, or how else is frequency drift causing grief? Other equipment being affected? This problem (once I can break it down) will make my troubleshooting list ...

Click to expand...

Nothing else is affected. I get that it's not a big deal from that regard, but the inverter is operating outside of published specification for an unknown reason creating a noteworthy daily nuisance. Generally speaking, when I find something that is running outside of specification, I am not willing to consider that it is as reliable as it should be. This odd behavior may be indicative of a premature failure.

sunshine_eggo said:

He also has a Sigineer 24V/6kW on the same bank for the well pump. They aren't connected in any other way. He didn't have sufficient PV to power that pump, but he can offset about 70% of it. When he'd run the pump for about an hour, it would draw the battery down even at peak PV and delay the time the battery hit absorption voltage (2X Outback FM-80), and sometimes 58.3Hz wouldn't happen. On other days when the pump wasn't ran, the Magnum would drop to 58.3Hz at the approximate time the battery hit absorption voltage and would stay at 58.3Hz for about 6-8 hours.

He's since installed a smaller pump (2hp) and enough PV to fully power the pump AND charge batteries, I don't know if it's still happening on pump days, and he doesn't know off the top of his head, so he's going to document it the next time he pumps (typically only 1-2 days/week). He expects it is because resetting clocks is a daily event.



I trust a kill-a-watt to report a frequency value. He actually has two. One in the pump house with the inverter and one in the kitchen. They are always in agreement. He's also confirmed it with a Klein CL800. I've confirmed it with my Fluke 116.



Microwave clock (2 year old Panasonic Inverter microwave). Oven clock. Bose clock radio - pretty much all the clocks in the kitchen.



Nothing else is affected. I get that it's not a big deal from that regard, but the inverter is operating outside of published specification for an unknown reason creating a noteworthy daily nuisance. Generally speaking, when I find something that is running outside of specification, I am not willing to consider that it is as reliable as it should be. This odd behavior may be indicative of a premature failure.

Click to expand...

A possible solution or maybe just a band aid would be to purchase another mspae 4024 and then network them together with the me artr such that the new one is the master and the one with the frequency issue is the slave. The slave would have to be in sync with the master and then it could not go to the 58 hz frequency.

sunshine_eggo said:

He also has a Sigineer 24V/6kW on the same bank for the well pump. They aren't connected in any other way. He didn't have sufficient PV to power that pump, but he can offset about 70% of it. When he'd run the pump for about an hour, it would draw the battery down even at peak PV and delay the time the battery hit absorption voltage (2X Outback FM-80), and sometimes 58.3Hz wouldn't happen. On other days when the pump wasn't ran, the Magnum would drop to 58.3Hz at the approximate time the battery hit absorption voltage and would stay at 58.3Hz for about 6-8 hours.

He's since installed a smaller pump (2hp) and enough PV to fully power the pump AND charge batteries, I don't know if it's still happening on pump days, and he doesn't know off the top of his head, so he's going to document it the next time he pumps (typically only 1-2 days/week). He expects it is because resetting clocks is a daily event.



I trust a kill-a-watt to report a frequency value. He actually has two. One in the pump house with the inverter and one in the kitchen. They are always in agreement. He's also confirmed it with a Klein CL800. I've confirmed it with my Fluke 116.



Microwave clock (2 year old Panasonic Inverter microwave). Oven clock. Bose clock radio - pretty much all the clocks in the kitchen.



Nothing else is affected. I get that it's not a big deal from that regard, but the inverter is operating outside of published specification for an unknown reason creating a noteworthy daily nuisance. Generally speaking, when I find something that is running outside of specification, I am not willing to consider that it is as reliable as it should be. This odd behavior may be indicative of a premature failure.

Click to expand...

Mine is a 4448 but I’m going to thro a Kill O watt on the kitchen wall and watch it for the poops and giggles.
So far the only stuff that don’t like the inverter is my clothes washer and poop box cheep chest freezer.

WindWizard said:

I see a number of the Magnum units on Amazon now. I am running two Magnum mspae 4448 inverters. They have ran rock solid for the year I have owned them. I use around 30kw a day through the Magnums. The Magnum expandability is really great. I am running two Magnums networked together and you can hook up 4 to provide over 12kw of power. One of my two Magnums basically just idles and waits for some high current equipment to turn on like my hot tub.

The thing I really love about the Magnums is that you do not have to do anything. You do not need to be babysitting them or switching this off or that off. When I have low battery voltage and it switches to the grid then the inverters automatically go to standby and soon as the solar charges the battery voltage high enough then the inverters switch on with a slight light flicker and that is it.

When I am on the grid due to low solar then the inverters are drawing idle current from the batteries. I never have to worry about the inverters sucking the batteries dry because the idle current is so low. I have not been able to measure the current draw with my Victron Smart Shunt because it is so low.

I have not needed repair and if I do then I will probably pick up another Magnum since I like them so well.

I am currently running the whole house off of the Magnums and not using any grid power. I currently am running a hot tub and a pool pump in the summer for the big energy drains.

I have done electronic repair all of my life so cracking open a Magnum is not something that I am afraid of. It sounds like I would be able to get most anything I need off of Ebay. Typically, I do not usually contact any service facility.

I do not regret purchasing my Magnums at all. I guess I am one of those Magnum dinosaurs because I love my Magnums.

Click to expand...

I love my Magnums. I just so happen got a bad one in a bad time to get a bad one I guess. Kinda pissed that they have moved manufacturing to Mexico. I noticed when I finally got in contact with customer service their new headquarters is located in Fort Worth Texas. I was told that they are basically starting over from fresh.

So there's hope.
I got an rma 3 weeks ago. But since then , crickets. Let's hope this crap gets figured out.
All those 20k $ prewired systems out there might start having issues with no recourse.

Keep us posted if you get a ship date.
Greg

WindWizard said:

A possible solution or maybe just a band aid would be to purchase another mspae 4024 and then network them together with the me artr such that the new one is the master and the one with the frequency issue is the slave. The slave would have to be in sync with the master and then it could not go to the 58 hz frequency.

Click to expand...

Very expensive band aid, and woefully impractical. No space on the panel.

@sunshine_eggo Reading the latter part of this thread, I'm wondering if that inverter somehow got let out of the shop in a non-default configuration that has it set up in frequency control mode. Perhaps because there's nothing for it to vary, when the voltage gets close faster it tries to ramp down the non-extant AC coupled SCCs, which does nothing, so it basically drops to minimum as if a switch was flipped. Sure, a brand new one shouldn't be able to do this, but I've learned to trust very little when it comes to complex electronics.

Any way to perform a full factory reset to standard defaults without a controller panel?

TorC said:

@sunshine_eggo Reading the latter part of this thread, I'm wondering if that inverter somehow got let out of the shop in a non-default configuration that has it set up in frequency control mode. Perhaps because there's nothing for it to vary, when the voltage gets close faster it tries to ramp down the non-extant AC coupled SCCs, which does nothing, so it basically drops to minimum as if a switch was flipped. Sure, a brand new one shouldn't be able to do this, but I've learned to trust very little when it comes to complex electronics.

Any way to perform a full factory reset to standard defaults without a controller panel?

Click to expand...

A full reset may help. I found this article on how to do it

Full reset was step 1.

Good that a full reset was tried. I don't see that it should be possible for the process to set up a default in just that unit that defaults on reset to frequency shift mode, but the symptoms described still seem to fit that rather well. A pity there's no one around you could borrow a display/controller from to check what it thinks it sees. Maybe if that direct Magnum contact can be gotten hold of he could send one to try. Sending it back if the unit does end up RMAd shouldn't add anything, so a low cost means for them to maybe avoid shipping an inverter around.

Keep us posted if you get anywhere with it.

Sounds like neighbor has a complex electrical system. Assuming a good problem definition now, perhaps this would get the necessary baseline:

- isolate the magnum from external influences (have only magnum, battery-bank, test load)
- run it for 24-hr period, logging the results

If it can hold frequency to specs during test period, then it's very likely an external to the magnum issue. You can vary the test load (to get better stress), as long as it is under controlled test conditions.

If you do get good test results, then you can start to add things back in, and see where problem resumes.

If it can't hold frequency under test conditions, this is good ammunition with Magnum support folks.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Sounds like neighbor has a complex electrical system.

Click to expand...

No more complex than a system with a critical loads panel that is only in use a few hours a week.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

Assuming a good problem definition now, perhaps this would get the necessary baseline:

- isolate the magnum from external influences (have only magnum, battery-bank, test load)
- run it for 24-hr period, logging the results

Click to expand...

The above is essentially the case for all days that the well pump is not run. The pump inverter is off and has no influence on the system on non-pumping days.

The test load is the house, which typically uses only 6-9kWh/day. Taking the house offline isn't going to happen unless Magnum insists. The argument is that there was a Trace inverter in place prior to the Magnum, and this issue never occurred.

50ShadesOfDirt said:

If it can hold frequency to specs during test period, then it's very likely an external to the magnum issue. You can vary the test load (to get better stress), as long as it is under controlled test conditions.

If you do get good test results, then you can start to add things back in, and see where problem resumes.

If it can't hold frequency under test conditions, this is good ammunition with Magnum support folks.

Click to expand...

Again, Magnum has already confirmed this appears to be an inverter issue, and it needs to be escalated to Engineering.

sunshine_eggo said:

He also has a Sigineer 24V/6kW on the same bank for the well pump. They aren't connected in any other way. He didn't have sufficient PV to power that pump, but he can offset about 70% of it. When he'd run the pump for about an hour, it would draw the battery down even at peak PV and delay the time the battery hit absorption voltage (2X Outback FM-80), and sometimes 58.3Hz wouldn't happen. On other days when the pump wasn't ran, the Magnum would drop to 58.3Hz at the approximate time the battery hit absorption voltage and would stay at 58.3Hz for about 6-8 hours.

He's since installed a smaller pump (2hp) and enough PV to fully power the pump AND charge batteries, I don't know if it's still happening on pump days, and he doesn't know off the top of his head, so he's going to document it the next time he pumps (typically only 1-2 days/week). He expects it is because resetting clocks is a daily event.



I trust a kill-a-watt to report a frequency value. He actually has two. One in the pump house with the inverter and one in the kitchen. They are always in agreement. He's also confirmed it with a Klein CL800. I've confirmed it with my Fluke 116.



Microwave clock (2 year old Panasonic Inverter microwave). Oven clock. Bose clock radio - pretty much all the clocks in the kitchen.



Nothing else is affected. I get that it's not a big deal from that regard, but the inverter is operating outside of published specification for an unknown reason creating a noteworthy daily nuisance. Generally speaking, when I find something that is running outside of specification, I am not willing to consider that it is as reliable as it should be. This odd behavior may be indicative of a premature failure.

Click to expand...

is your friends unit a PAE? if so they offer frequency shifting for when it is used in a grid assist setup it could be that the inverters circuits are sensing a reason to frequency shift. if thats the case it's broken (somewhere) if it frequency shifts when it is not hooked up to the grid but I would look at the card that controls that system.

Daddy Tanuki said:

is your friends unit a PAE? if so they offer frequency shifting for when it is used in a grid assist setup it could be that the inverters circuits are sensing a reason to frequency shift. if thats the case it's broken (somewhere) if it frequency shifts when it is not hooked up to the grid but I would look at the card that controls that system.

Click to expand...

Yep. @TorC already brought this possibility up, and after a conversation with my neighbor today, I suspect it's the culprit. The unit does NOT indicate "AC Coupling" on the display as it should when frequency shifting, but it reads "inverting" at all times. Confirmed that today.

The unit is currently still on the defaults for the battery config following the reset. According to my neighbor, following the reset, it became much more common, i.e., there have not been any days where it didn't drop to 58.3Hz.

His FM-80 are charging to a voltage higher than the PAE settings, made even worse by temp comp. Additionally, his battery has atypically high absorption and float voltages (12S 1000Ah 2V cells akin to forklift batteries). With temp comp, he's seeing in excess of 30V.

We're going to go through all the settings for the PAE to ensure AC coupling isn't somehow enabled and set all charge voltages as close to the equalization voltage as we can and see what happens.

Replacement 4448 on it's way from magnum. Should be here friday.

Let's see if things start rolling

Pyrofx said:

Replacement 4448 on it's way from magnum. Should be here friday.

Let's see if things start rolling

Click to expand...

good for you! hope they unscrew themselves. I have three of their inverters myself... only problems i had were self initiated by not taking lightening strikes seriously.

sunshine_eggo said:

Stand alone inverter completely off grid.



N/A - no frequency shifting for grid tie or AC coupling.



That's been discussed with Magnum. Essentially, he finally gets in touch with someone, they say, "that's really weird, I'm going to have to get with Engineering," and then he never hears back.



Kill-a-watt plugged in 24/7 to at least monitor it real time, and he loses 7-8 minutes per day on all clocks that are frequency dependent.



Rural area. Hard to find folks with full sets of teeth, let alone one with an EE.



I've been down this road, and I've personally invested several hours of diagnostic/research time over several months. This thing exhibited this behavior from day 1.



The only "grid" present is the one formed by the Magnum itself. The nearest power pole is two 40 acre parcels away.



Nope.

It keeps coming down to there being no external reason this is happening. The vendor has no clue, and the first line folks at Magnum have no clue and claim to escalate it, but it just dies.

Click to expand...

When I worked at Magnum the "Custom" battery setting caused frequency shift to happen automatically any time the battery exceeded the target of the inverter. Try turning the inverters targets up 3 or 4 tenths above the charge controller and see if it helps. My gut tells me this is the frequency shift algorythm they have for controlling the micro inverters. My gut also tells me no one works at Magnum anymore that remembers that feature. If you want to email me Ryan@midnitesolar.com I will loop in the head of tech support at Magnum (Well he used to be, he now is our project manager)

Halfcrazy said:

When I worked at Magnum the "Custom" battery setting caused frequency shift to happen automatically any time the battery exceeded the target of the inverter. Try turning the inverters targets up 3 or 4 tenths above the charge controller and see if it helps. My gut tells me this is the frequency shift algorythm they have for controlling the micro inverters. My gut also tells me no one works at Magnum anymore that remembers that feature. If you want to email me Ryan@midnitesolar.com I will loop in the head of tech support at Magnum (Well he used to be, he now is our project manager)

Click to expand...

That's the plan. It's currently set to whatever the reset defaults are.

Going to set all voltages close to the equalization voltage to see if that resolves it.

Appreciate the offer. Much thanks. Will reach out if this doesn't resolve it.

sunshine_eggo said:

That's the plan. It's currently set to whatever the reset defaults are.

Going to set all voltages close to the equalization voltage to see if that resolves it.

Appreciate the offer. Much thanks. Will reach out if this doesn't resolve it.

Click to expand...

Yes the older software didnt say anything about ac coupling

Halfcrazy said:

Yes the older software didnt say anything about ac coupling

Click to expand...

Yeah. The first manual I downloaded didn't refer to it at all. Only the one with "Sensata" on it.