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Adding storage to my Enphase system

Well... It did it again.
Do you have anything setup on the "Charge Block Start" and "Charge Block End" setting of the Charger Settings? It seems like I had heard once that ending a Charge block might kick off a charge cycle. Maybe that only happens when the actual voltage is less than the recharge voltage. I know that doesn't happen when the inverter requalifies AC1. It will kick off a charge cycle regardless of the current battery state. Just make sure charge block is set to 12:00 AM and 12:00 AM. I doubt this is the issue since it appears I am also seeing it.

I had one incident where 4 charge cycles in a row ran. They were maybe an hour or 2 apart. At first I thought this was one proper charge followed by 3 incorrect ones. In looking closer all 4 were not correct. So I went back and looked through all the data for Feb and March. I found another incident where it seemed to kick off a charging cycle without reaching the expected voltage. So appear to be having this issue too.

Another thing I am wondering about is does a disconnection from AC always trigger an event to be logged? They have an AC under voltage event, but what about other issues like frequency variation? Maybe they can trigger a disconnect without logging a fault? I wonder if the AC qualification criteria has changed?

I have been checking and I have had no more recent reoccurrences of unexpected charging.
 
First off, today was my record production for this year so far, first time topping 24 KWHs in 2024, and it went all the way up to 25.9 KWHs. It even hit clipping at 3,900 watts in the iQ7 micros for 45 minutes at solar noon.

Enphase-03-14-24.JPG
Too bad the charging hit early topped up the system way too soon.

XW-Batt-03-14-24.JPG
The DC system also just sat in float most of the day. It was totally done with Absorb mode by about 1 pm.

IMG_4771.PNG IMG_4772.PNG

It obviously would have produced far more energy if it had a place to send it. I scrolled the cursor to where it went to absorb. The time stamp is just 12:28 as the voltage goes flat line. I never even got to see the power peak as it was still climbing when it had to go into limiting. The battery voltage didn't start falling until 6 pm.

As for the false charge start.....

Most of my very short term AI (Anti Islanding) disconnects were from over frequency (error code 25) on the grid. But they were very short glitches that were not noticeable on anything powered by the grid. It was logging 2 or 3 every month until I updated the firmware. The grid stability ride through certainly improved with the update, and there is not a single AI or any other event in the log since Dec. I just looked at the past Events. I had 5 over frequency events in Oct. 23 but then none in Nov. Then 2 more Dec. 16th and 18th of 23. And then the Dec. 19, 2023 was an under frequency (error code 26).

If I had made a change in my PLC code, I would accept I made an error, but I have not edited the flow of the code in any way in several months. I did change a few of the constant values, but that's it. I never had it accidentally send a bulk in a year, and now it did 2 in just a couple days. Seems very odd. And it is not even tied to the firmware update, as it didn't do it for 2 months after the update.

I can't say for sure if it triggers a charge every time it does an AI disconnect. But it certainly did many of the times. A few times it was already charging when the error occurred, and a couple may have been in the charge block time. I do have it set to block charging during the 4 pm to 9 pm peak rate time.

I have started to write out a new flow chart for some changes I want to make. The PLC serves a small web page I can easily monitor and it lets you change some vales in the web. I want to make it so I can use that to stop or force charging with a click, or reduce charging current, or maybe make the sliders control current limits. Here is the basic default web page with my script running.
Nano-10 default web page.JPG
I didn't use any of the registers that the page is displaying, so it has no control over my system now, but the yellow text window is the virtual LCD screen that is on their larger PLC's, While there is no screen on it, it save the writes to memory and shows it in the online monitor and this webb app as if it was the 20 character by 4 line LCD screen.

Top line, real time clock and modbus connection status
Second line is battery volts, but does show when I change settings, it will show "Force Bulk" or Charge Current 18%
Third line is labels for the last line
Last line W for watts 61 watts to the AC1 grid output, -788 watts coming out of the battery, and 695 watts to the loads in the backup panel.

It seems the Nano-10 only supports up to Relay 136. I can click on the first 8 and they show turning on and off in the live monitor. The other 8 do nothing. The DM[x] are 16 bit holding registers. I skipped the first 8 because I was not sure what I want to use those for for changing on the fly. You can click on them, type in a value and it does update the register in the PLC. The sliders are cute, but sort of a pain. You slide it with the mouse and set a value, but it does not send it to the PLC until you click enter. And even with the 0-100 rang, it is tough to pick an exact value with the mouse. But it also works in reverse. If I set the DM value, the slider moves to the setting in the PLC.

The web page can be edited or even completely replaced, but it is written in HTML and has to be FTP transferred into the PLC memory. I have not done those things, and reading that section of the manual does not feel logical to me yet. It also has a second web page, but it has an error and when I try to open it, it shows some HTML code, then just keeps scrolling with a repeating character. Most likely a missing end of file code and it is just dumping all of the flash memory in the PLC.

Oh well. The few glitches I have had are still fairly minor. I may set the current limits a little lower as the DC solar is doing a great job topping up the battery now. Then if it goes into charge, it won't be sucking up 2,000 watts. I can also time block when it can even send the force bulk command. Then I will know for sure it can't be coming from the PLC at that time of day.
 
@GXMnow I've been busy and not keeping up with this thread as well as I normally do, so please forgive me if any of this has been asked/answered/suggested.

The battery recharge overnight, it sounds like it's happened a few times now, but sounds like you don't have any idea what is actually causing it yet. I saw that you think it might be the utility doing it remotely via sunspec.

Is it happening enough that if you killed power to the AC input, and just went "offgrid" overnight each night.. after a week or so you could say "it's likely the utility", or if it continues to happen you can rule out the utility since it would have been disconnected?

Personally, I doubt a utility would just start changing how your equipment behaves without some kind of approval/notification, but that might be included in part of your NEM agreement. That said, (and not to get political) but, my understanding is that you live in california.. where the powers in charge have proven repetitively that they don't care about your rights/consent, so.. I guess it's possible that they've just started sending commands to equipment without your approval. I'd try turning off the AC input breaker every night before bed, and see if the phenomenon continues.
 
Personally, I doubt a utility would just start changing how your equipment behaves without some kind of approval/notification, but that might be included in part of your NEM agreement. That said, (and not to get political) but, my understanding is that you live in california.. where the powers in charge have proven repetitively that they don't care about your rights/consent, so.. I guess it's possible that they've just started sending commands to equipment without your approval. I'd try turning off the AC input breaker every night before bed, and see if the phenomenon continues.

Well regardless of where the command is coming from, the inverter can not kick off a charge cycle unless there is AC connected. I seem to be experiencing this too. I never saw this until the last couple of months. I did update my firm where about that time.
 
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Is it happening enough that if you killed power to the AC input, and just went "offgrid" overnight each night.. after a week or so you could say "it's likely the utility", or if it continues to happen you can rule out the utility since it would have been disconnected?

Personally, I doubt a utility would just start changing how your equipment behaves without some kind of approval/notification, but that might be included in part of your NEM agreement. That said, (and not to get political) but, my understanding is that you live in california.. where the powers in charge have proven repetitively that they don't care about your rights/consent, so.. I guess it's possible that they've just started sending commands to equipment without your approval. I'd try turning off the AC input breaker every night before bed, and see if the phenomenon continues.
Since I did the firmware update in the XW-Pro and Gateway, it has only happened twice, but it was just 2 days apart. It happened shortly after midnight on the morning of March 12th, and then at 4:30 am on March 14th. If it starts happening more, I will certainly start looking more into what is doing it. My theory for now is one of 3 things.

First, most likely option is a glitch in my PLC code. Honestly, it is the most likely. But still odd that it was not happening before and it is so rare. If it happens again, I can easily shut off the PLC and just set a fixed export current for the whole night. If it changes to charge, the PLC didn't do it.

My second thought is a glitch in the Gateway firmware. It is the biggest change in my system. But I have been on the new firmware over a month before it happened, so it seems very odd.

The third possibility is "Big Brother". Yes, California does not always play by the rules. My utility is Southern California Edison. And they rolled out NEM 3.0 last year. One of the provisions is a better rate, including a very high pay back for giving them control of battery charging and export. So they are at least working on being able to control battery based storage inverters. I have not signed up for the "ToU Prime" rate schedule that is available for customers with a storage battery. But by looking at my usage graphs, it is quite obvious I am using an energy storage system. My thought is someone has seen that and they may have sent a charge command just to see if my system responded. And maybe they did it a second time just to confirm their result. If I had dialed it back a little so it didn't export at all over night, they may not have noticed, but I am still exporting about 20 watts all night. It hunts a bit any time the load changes, and my goal was "zero", but I know I make more than I use most days, so I pushed a small offset towards export. I would rather get credit for extra power than have to curtail and throw it away.

Everything I am doing is still connected to the main panel by the same 20 amp back feed breaker that was inspected and approved by the city and So Cal Edison. I am never violating any of the terms spelled out in my NEM 2.0 agreement. I never export more than 16 amps, and my total export per month never exceeds 900 kilowatt hours. There is no mention of what time of day.

I do believe that So Cal Edison wants me to switch to the ToU Prime rate. The off peak time is a little cheaper, but the peak rate is MUCH higher, and they add a fixed $30 per month fee for being on that plan. Even their own "Rate comparison tool" shows that it would cost me more per year to be on that rate. Under the normal "ToU 4-9pm" rate, my minimum monthly fees are less than $12 and my rate of export is covering that. While the credits do not directly offset the taxes and fees, the year end true up credit from last year moved to an account credit which is now paying the monthly fees and taxes. Even if I have a net export month, that credit balance still drops to cover the fees. My net energy balance will again total for the whole year, and my account credit may run out even with 1,000 KWHs of net export. They keep the two balances separate. By he end of the billing year, I may end up having to pay a few small bills, but then in Oct. when they do the true up, I will get another credit on the account. With my current amount of solar production and my usage, I am very close to net zero.

When I do get an EV, I will end up having to buy some "Super Off Peak" electricity to run it, unless I add more panels. But even that rate is up to 27 cents per KWH now.

Looking at the rate plans just now, it changed again. The Prime EV rate only drops the overnight to 24 cents, but the peak 4 to 9 rate goes up to 60 cents vs 44 cents on my current plan. That peak rate should not be an issue as my battery should always cover that. But the fixed charge goes from 35 cents per day to 52 cents per day. That fixed rate has been lowered a bit. It was nearly a dollar a day last time I ran the rate compare tool. But I ran it again, and it still shows the EV rate would cost me about $50 more per year, going from a credit to having to pay them. I am right on the zero line.
 
And So Cal Edison just posted my usage for yesterday.

SCE-03-14-24.JPG
Even with the 2 KW of grid charging in the morning, I ended up net exporting 13.52 KWHs. And here is the XW battery graph again for comparison.

XW-Batt-03-14-24.JPG
 
I have a couple of traces to share that are also showing issues with charging cycles getting kicked off when they should not.

My system is setup to kick off charging when voltage drops to 53 volts. One of these shows 4 charging cycles in a row. The "Normal" version is the expected behavior. There are no corresponding events in the logs.

02/27/2024 - first charge is normal, the second is not
03/04/2024 - None of the 4 charges should have occurred
03/10/2024 - This is expected behavior. Charge starts on 53 volts

Right now my system is sitting at 53.05 volts and should be about ready to kick off a charge cycle.
 

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Who has an inverter the utility can access and control (by means other than line voltage/frequency) at this time?

I'll be installing Sunny Boy 7.7kW -41 series. It has Ethernet link, but I won't be connecting that to anything. I assume they can't come back later and force data connections. Just require current equipment to support it, so future new installs some day can be connected and controlled.
 
Who has an inverter the utility can access and control (by means other than line voltage/frequency) at this time?

I'll be installing Sunny Boy 7.7kW -41 series. It has Ethernet link, but I won't be connecting that to anything. I assume they can't come back later and force data connections. Just require current equipment to support it, so future new installs some day can be connected and controlled.
Is it a power line signal of some kind?
 
Who has an inverter the utility can access and control (by means other than line voltage/frequency) at this time?
To go along with that, what would be the control method? Voltage and frequency are the only options currently available (as far as I know)
There sure is a lot of fud around this supposed big brother pushing charge commands. In my opinion, the most likely cause of GXMnow's issue is either a momentary grid disconnect or a PLC issue. He even admitted as much.

wheisenburg's issue is likely something different.

Can you both restart/power down the Insight? My Insight has had issues in the past where the grid alerts/faults didn't populate until after a power cycle.
 
To go along with that, what would be the control method? Voltage and frequency are the only options currently available (as far as I know)
There sure is a lot of fud around this supposed big brother pushing charge commands.

California CEC list (if you download spreadsheet; not all columns on web page)


Shows "Inverter CSIP Conformance" and the dates inverters complied with it.

"SunSpec Common Smart Inverter Profile (CSIP) Conformance Test Procedures"

Lists things like "DNS", IPv6, XML which would be internet communications with the inverters.


I've read before that it had not been worked out who was responsible for cost of maintaining internet connection to inverters, but such connectivity was the plan.
 
Can you both restart/power down the Insight? My Insight has had issues in the past where the grid alerts/faults didn't populate until after a power cycle.
Wow, you called it.

I just power cycled the Gateway. It seemed to take a really long time to come back up, but it finally did. The Battery summary graph shows the blank spot where it didn't store any data. It was 4 minutes from power down to back online. I clicked on the "Events" tab, and it was still blank for current, but I clicked on history, and 2 new entries showed up. And yup, exactly at the 2 times my system started charging.

March 12th at 17 minutes after midnight, and again March 14th at 4:31 am.
Both are a grid voltage too high, error number 33.

So that solves this mystery, it is not my PLC programming or Big Brother. The grid voltage just crept up too high. At this moment, I am exporting about 40 watts, basically nothing. My grid voltage at the XW is a little high at 243.2 from L1 to L2. I have to wonder how high it went yesterday, when my Enphase panels were pushing 3,200 watts out to the grid?? That is when I would expect a high grid voltage error, not in the middle of the night when all the PV solar panels around me are doing nothing. It does seem odd.

@Hedges I always assumed that some type of hardware bridge would be needed to give them control, or I would have to supply the MAC address of my gateway etc. That is why I doubted it was an external control signal, but I just couldn't figure out what happened. Could the Gateway have powerline networking? How is the utility getting the data back from the smart power meter? I have read it uses a form of Zigbee, but that is a short range signal. Do they drive around and scan them from the street? Is there a gateway/hub/router on each block?
 
California CEC list (if you download spreadsheet; not all columns on web page)


Shows "Inverter CSIP Conformance" and the dates inverters complied with it.

"SunSpec Common Smart Inverter Profile (CSIP) Conformance Test Procedures"

Lists things like "DNS", IPv6, XML which would be internet communications with the inverters.


I've read before that it had not been worked out who was responsible for cost of maintaining internet connection to inverters, but such connectivity was the plan.
Good point. I guess I should have been more specific.
Unless you've made "them" aware of your inverter and it's grid connection, I'm not seeing a way for "them" to control the inverter.
 
Wow, you called it.

I just power cycled the Gateway. It seemed to take a really long time to come back up, but it finally did. The Battery summary graph shows the blank spot where it didn't store any data. It was 4 minutes from power down to back online. I clicked on the "Events" tab, and it was still blank for current, but I clicked on history, and 2 new entries showed up. And yup, exactly at the 2 times my system started charging.

March 12th at 17 minutes after midnight, and again March 14th at 4:31 am.
Both are a grid voltage too high, error number 33.
High voltage at 4 am? That's odd, I get higher voltage around solar noon, when the neighbors and I are all pushing to the grid and they're out of the house, not using as much energy. Meanwhile, I'm charging batteries...

So that solves this mystery, it is not my PLC programming or Big Brother. The grid voltage just crept up too high.
I guess you could bump the upper limit up just slightly.

At this moment, I am exporting about 40 watts, basically nothing. My grid voltage at the XW is a little high at 243.2 from L1 to L2. I have to wonder how high it went yesterday, when my Enphase panels were pushing 3,200 watts out to the grid?? That is when I would expect a high grid voltage error, not in the middle of the night when all the PV solar panels around me are doing nothing. It does seem odd.

@Hedges I always assumed that some type of hardware bridge would be needed to give them control, or I would have to supply the MAC address of my gateway etc. That is why I doubted it was an external control signal, but I just couldn't figure out what happened. Could the Gateway have powerline networking? How is the utility getting the data back from the smart power meter? I have read it uses a form of Zigbee, but that is a short range signal. Do they drive around and scan them from the street? Is there a gateway/hub/router on each block?
Good question, I assumed they installed hubs in neighborhoods. I'm interested to hear the answer to how the smart meter signal is read

I don't think it can be power line to the insight/gateway. Mine doesn't have an AC connection. I don't know think it can be power line to the XW, as it's not advertised. Also, I think the grid would get pretty messy if they were trying to put power line communication out to many houses across the grid.
 
I suppose bootleg equipment could be discovered, if on the network. Wouldn't know what customer, unless something about IP address of the router.
Sunny Web Box (which has a vulnerability, fixed admin password), was found in large quantity in a scan.

But permitted installs with utility PTO would now be of a model with SunSpec controls over Ethernet. However we aren't required to put it on the network, at least not now.

If someone had a backup system, utility might want to control inverters on the grid, but while yours is operating off-grid it shouldn't be controlled.

I'm hoping mine will be exempt, grandfathered as an installation before connection to internet required. But there is a lot of capacity out there, which could help move the grid.

Networking is also how zero export gets done by SMA. The Sunny Boy Storage I'm working with uses WattNode to sense power at utility connection, can shave peaks, and could command Sunny Boy to curtail output from PV. It doesn't look like SB by itself has a way to read meter or CT, that can be done by a separate controller. But SBS can do that, e.g. recharging off peak and seeking to zero import on peak.
 
Well I rebooted my gateway. No events were on there. My AC voltage is running right around 250. Obviously with no export right now. That seems pretty high, but I am no seeing any AC over voltage events.

My DC voltage is at 53.01 so it is just about ready to enter a charging cycle.
 
I know my XW-Pro is visible on the internet as I can look into it, and Schneider has as well. I could take it off of the internet if I wanted to block it, but I see no reason at this point. It is nice to be able to check my battery status when I am away. They even warn about Modbus TCP not having any security. Once connected into my LAN, anyone knowing the IP address of my Gateway could control it.

My DC voltage is at 53.01 so it is just about ready to enter a charging cycle.

What is pulling your voltage down? How long has it been since the inverter stopped running at 53.5 volts?

My lithium ion NMC pack would take months to come down that 0.5 volts to trigger a recharge. And I would expect an LFP pack to take even longer with their super flat discharge curve. In fact, when my system is running low, each time it stops inverting at my 50.5 volt shut off point, the voltage rebounds and it ends up going back into Grid Support again about 4 times over the next hour before it will stay low enough. Then it will just hang at that voltage with no static load on it. I never had it actually "Recharge" just from the voltage falling. Early in march, we had a few cloudy days in a row and I let it manage itself to see what it would do. The morning of March 7th was interesting.

XW-low voltage shut down.JPG
Shortly after 5 am, you can see the voltage dip and then the current goes from -24 amps up to zero as the inverter stops the first time. It did it 3 more times to about 5:35 am. Had it been totally dark out, that is about where it normally stays. But even with the cloudy sky, the Victron charge controller started to push a little current. That small charge current was enough to make the XW power back up like 18 times over the next 2 hours. The sun was also hitting the Enphase panels, so the load on the inverter was being reduced, but the AC solar was still not more than the house load, so it still shut off a couple more times until there was finally more solar coming in than grid power after 8 am.

I looked back a bit and I can't find another event where the voltage dropped to shut down with no solar coming in.
 
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