California introduces bill to assess rooftop solar net metering

[Hedges]

Is that residential pv vs other wholesale?

Utility scale, where PG&E contracts to buy power from a supplier.

So wait..
You pay the same transport and connection fees right ?

That should include all cost that entails just that, do there for the grid isn't free, and, at least here, are outside netmetering

And there we have it , at least in my mind, powerco's never invested in storage, only in generation, which is where the real problem lies

No investment ( or well planned investment) for years
Profits went to management and share holders, while part of that needed to be invested

We pay a monthly fee in the $10 to $15 range.

We pay a large charge for transportation of power, based on consumption.
My Oakland house, last bill was $130 for power and $282 for delivery.
(for some reason, if I had PV there and backfed under NEM 3.0, I would not get a credit for 1/3 of the total.)

Water in San Jose, on the other hand, for 2 months I paid $200 meter fee and $40 quantity fee.

One of the problems in California is that we pay almost no connection fees. About $10. It does not cover the real fixed and standby costs of the grid which would be more like $100.

$10 is fair to maintain a physical connection. Just a wire drop and meter.

Some sort of "demand charge" based maybe on peak wattage draw could address being a big consumer only when times are tough.
I would favor that rather than a photon tax or income based charge, to have PV users pay their fair share of the grid. If they learn to conserve and reduce peak consumption, they should pay less for the grid.

 

[houseofancients]

The power co investment = the ratepayers investment. I don't see why non solar ratepayers have to invest in solving solar customer's problems. Natural gas power doesn't need storage.

Yet, a contant fees for natural gas, same with Cole and nuclear for that matter.
Not to mention huge investments in building

Wind / solar isn't constant, yet , after initial build investment is paid off, generates free.
A battery adds to that investment, but taking all things in account dwarfs compared to the investment into a gas/Cole plant, not to mention a nuke plant

 

[hwy17]

compared to the investment into a gas

Gas plants are so cheap you don't even have to invest, just permit them to exist and they will spring out of the ground through private investment. But if we could go all the way back to pre 1996 when PG&E ran generation too I would prefer that.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

One of the problems in California is that we pay almost no connection fees. About $10.

That's about the same as a connection fee here. Also, transport is around 4 cents per kWh (so we're around 18 to 19 cents per kWh or so including taxes and transport).

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Gas plants are so cheap you don't even have to invest,

I commissioned the flagship gas turbine at Hawthorne Power Plant near KC, MO. It was a joint venture between Siemens and Westinghouse. Built several more after proof of concept.
Stable, cheap, clean power with an unrivaled ability to ramp up and down to meet demand.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Compared to Finland: typically people pay around 10 to 13 cents per kWh or so, with about 2.5 cents on top of that for taxes. We're close to being the cheapest place in the EU for power:

Finland soon to see Europe’s cheapest electricity – analyst | Montel News - English

And one of the cheapest for transmission as well:

Transmitting electricity in Finland is still the second most affordable in Europe in 2021

www.fingrid.fi

I have seen an inverse relationship between cost of utility power and adoption of residential solar:
Australia has high cost of utility power and high adoption of residential solar PV, so does California.
Looking at Ontario (my Province) and Quebec or Manitoba, there is very low adoption of residential solar, but look at the utility rates, some of the lowest in N.America. ie, low cost of utility power is a disincentive to residential solar PV adoption.
Normal off-peak rate in my rural area is 8.4cent CAD$/kWh ie about 6-cents USD, and an ultra-low overnight rate is available that is 2.8cents !!
Adding it all up:
high cost of equipment,
high cost of professional installers,
high cost of permitting and code compliance
low cost utility power
local utility power is already 'green' (no coal in Ontario power generation)
no tax breaks for residential solar investments,
solar is only abundant for half of the year here.
we are unlikely to see widespread adoption any time soon.

 

[Bop]

Turnkey rooftop PV around $3/W means around $0.10/kWh, quite cheap compare to retail in California.
But use it or lose it, rather get a credit < $0.05/kWh for backfeed, so a losing proposition to install rooftop PV in excess of baseline consumption. Which could be a fairly large amount, if you run A/C most of the time half the year




$2/W or more in labor. Compare to Australia, where turnkey labor + hardware is only $1/W
Something about no plans, no permits "Just Do It" as I understand.



It is here, too (while the sun shines). But we're talking about $0.02/kWh wholesale PV vs. $0.04/kW for something else.
But including distribution, we pay retail rates in the $0.40 to $0.60/kWh range.

Well sorta...
There is some paperwork involved in installing gridtie here in Australia, but nothing like what the US seems to have...

And installers here have to comply with a lot more regulations than yank installers are used to (a common complaint by expat electricians here is that they are simply not used to working in an environment where safety is so tightly regulated) here a roofing install on a single storey house requires 'roofing fences' to be installed, panels are lifted by mechanical means (no 'carrying them up the ladder') and multistory houses require a licenced scaffolder to install temporary scaffolding during the install...
All installers have to pass a course and pay for their annual license (no licence, no work), pay for their business licence and pay labour rates ( a good installer can be making $60 an hour or more), all the electricals must be done by a licensed electrician (4 year apprenticeship, annual work licence and "required" test gear that many US electricians have never even seen, let alone use daily)
Our fuel costs are far higher than the US as well, which makes me wonder why US costs are so high for solar installs...

I was talking to a US installer and he hadn't even heard of a roofing fence, let alone used one...

 

[green mountain boys]

Suppose:
Instead of roof top solar on your new home, you can, as an alternative, buy a share in a utiltiy scale PV farm representing the same kW PV size.
The share attaches financially to the home, and transfers with the home ownership if/when sold.
We get (as @Hedges pointed out) x3 efficiency, and all maint and warranty is handled cost effectively by the solar farm, no risk of fire to your home either.
Too easy?

The type of program you describe has been available in Vermont for a while. There are more than a few ways to participate in solar production if you have no place for solar, cannot afford solar or just don't want the panels at your home.

https://vermontelectric.coop/co-op-community-solar

https://greenmountainpower.com/news...-community-solar-array-low-income-vermonters/

 

[OffGridForGood]

Is the "roofing fence" attached to the gutter...

 

[Bop]

Is the "roofing fence" attached to the gutter...

Nope- it is installed with a high lift (or ladder if access for a high lift isn't feasible) aand is attached to the rafters (either lifting a tile to screw to the beam, or with the more common colourbond roofing panels, a pair of roofing screws is undone and a 'foot' bracket screwed down through those holes)

 

[OffGridForGood]

We have similar systems, called Roof Stanchions - typically used on flat roof ,clamped to the roof parapet, or as you say, slipped under the roofing and attached to trusses. For pitched roofs (Rooves) we can also use fall arrest systems and full body harness - tie back system that prevent a person from falling off the roof. All these are required in Canada. I can't say tile roofing is very common though, I have only seen one or two buildings using them here. Shingles, EPDM, standing seem steel are far more common. Most houses use asphalt shingles or metal. (there are metal shingles).

 

[Hedges]

We have a far simpler method to keep workers from falling off the roof ... I mean from hitting the ground:



... but then you're probably never heard of "suspension trauma"




(Buy our harness so you can suffer longer)

Required, I think, but much construction work isn't done in compliance.

Some facilities require rails if workers come within 20' of the edge. Or of skylights. We were shown video of someone coming through a skylight.

 

[Bop]

Asphalt or wood shingles are practically nonexistent in Australia (there is one small company that imports them, but I haven't seen any actual installations yet ever myself), concrete or ceramic tiles were pretty much the standard for suburban housing from ww2 until until the 70's (rural properties often were 'corro' sheets ie galvanised corrugated iron), but since then, colourbond roofing sheets are literally almost the complete market here (and why not- mine has a 35 year warranty- that the colour bond coating won't discoulour or fade- there are metal roofs here that are over a century old...
'Re roofing' is something most home owners will never do in their entire lifetime...
Metal 'tiles' were a bit of a fad back in the 70's, but have pretty much disappeared- worst of both worlds lol- with higher installation costs than sheeting, and with many more seams to give rise to potential leaks...

 

[OffGridForGood]

Asphalt or wood shingles are practically nonexistent in Australia (there is one small company that imports them, but I haven't seen any actual installations yet ever myself), concrete or ceramic tiles were pretty much the standard for suburban housing from ww2 until until the 70's (rural properties often were 'corro' sheets ie galvanised corrugated iron), but since then, colourbond roofing sheets are literally almost the complete market here (and why not- mine has a 35 year warranty- that the colour bond coating won't discoulour or fade- there are metal roofs here that are over a century old...
'Re roofing' is something most home owners will never do in their entire lifetime...
Metal 'tiles' were a bit of a fad back in the 70's, but have pretty much disappeared- worst of both worlds lol- with higher installation costs than sheeting, and with many more seams to give rise to potential leaks...

Interesting, the asphalt shingles used today are 35 year roofing.
I have an old barn on my property with a steel roof from the 1960's still holding fine - no leaks.
Our issues in Canada are something you would likely never see - SNOW
our snow loading is about 75lbs per sqft - 3.6kpa so adding on top of this a heavy roofing material is cost prohibitive.
There are significant dangers to any slippery roofing and 40 tonnes of snow on a roof in spring conditions...

 

[Bop]

Interesting, the asphalt shingles used today are 35 year roofing.
I have an old barn on my property with a steel roof from the 1960's still holding fine - no leaks.
Our issues in Canada are something you would likely never see - SNOW
our snow loading is about 75lbs per sqft - 3.6kpa so adding on top of this a heavy roofing material is cost prohibitive.
There are significant dangers to any slippery roofing and 40 tonnes of snow on a roof in spring conditions...

Despite many thinking of Australia as being vast empty deserts, we do get snow in Australia...
Only a few hours drive from Sydney (Opera House and the Sydney Harbour Bridge (two internationally well known landmarks), we have a thriving winter skiing industry down in the Snowy mountains (guess how they got their name lol- us Aussies aren't real inventive when it comes to naming thing- we got a big sandy desert- so we called it the Great Sandy desert... there's a smaller one nearby, so thats the Little Sandy desert, and guess why we called the Snowy Mountains that...


We even get snow occasionally up near me- this is about an hours drive SE of me in the highlands...

Snow in Queensland... its rare, but it happens (never snowed here though)
brisbanetimes