They took the poll places away before Covid in our area. Didn’t even have a say in it. Vote by mail only. Like mines not going in the shredder. Who’s gonna know?
California proposes “blatant seizure of property” in solar ruling
- Thread starter Will Prowse
- Start date
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
#1 is valid, sort of. Zoning and all that.
#2 is silly. Grid power at it's highest cost is 1/2 the cost of running a small generator, marginally better but still more if you are on natural gas.
#3 is not necessarily true. In Arizona the winter is when I can take full advantage. Now that I have 60KWH of batteries I no longer need to flip over to the grid in the evening. Might not be enough this summer in July/Aug. I'm air-gapped to the grid with a transfer switch.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
I'm not sure a submarine would be all that useful. All those military bases do not belong to California, they are simply in California.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
This comment is on the subject of people wanting to close their utility account to avoid basic charges, which is why they would choose to pay more for winter generator use. Because it's less than the year round charges.
If you can go all winter and not run out of solar/battery power you are the .1%.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
"They" don't need your Solar. "Green" energy is not more valuable. Neither should "They" pay you more for any power you create and push back than "They" would pay from normal sources. In fact the grid that goes out to your residence was not engineered for reverse transmission of power. If everyone hopped on and started pushing power it could get problematic. Electric transmission is somewhat complicated, demand is a bitch, and the power company paid to run all that cable up to your meter. If it was really simple it wouldn't be a problem.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
"Pass the peanuts . . . My beer is still cold, thanks"
I still don't think a generator would be cheaper unless you really didn't use it much, at which point running it would not really pollute. My TOU metering cost is $20/mo. That's $240/year. 100 gallons of fuel is $300+. How may KWH with a mythical 5K generator? Dunno maybe.
I'm kinda thinking Phoenix, Tucson, Most of Texas, I have a friend up near 4 corners on the Res (in New Mexico) that built offgrid (no availability) over 10 yrs ago. On his 2nd set of FLA's. He is 100% by necessity, has propane for heat. @timselectric is somewhere in Appalachia I think, he's close if not there. I'm not really sure where your .1% number is coming from.
My sister and her husband are up in Montana, she's telling me it's generally sunny most days even in winter. They are really interested in my setup. It's going to depend on how much storage you are willing to get to cover the bad days. I predict we will see battery density increase by a factor of two in the next 5-6 years. When that happens (he says with confidence) it will drive the costs down for storage to a more economical point.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,814
The government in California has mandated utilities to procure an increasing percentage of renewable energy.
So long as they get credit towards that for renewable backfeed, and perhaps for customer self generation consumed locally, the rooftop PV is helping with that and could be said to be more valuable.
Of course they would rather purchase PV at wholesale and sell at retail. But they are operating under laws, as we are. If new homeowners can be required to install PV and participate in net metering, the utilities can be required to to give 1:1 credit (but now they're not under 3.0.) At some point when PG&E is only sloshing power back and forth between producers and consumers, with little purchase and resale, of course 1:1 doesn't work. The transmission costs and other PG&E operating costs could be allocated according to consumption. (Instead, California proposes to allocate it according to income.)
If everyone makes their own power, maybe we'll find transmission is worth $0.20/kWh, off-peak generation is worth $0.05/kWh, on-peak (generation and storage) is worth $0.30/kWh? Maybe batteries will reach volume where they are only $0.05 or less, as PV is today. Then it could go back to level pricing throughout the day, or close.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
In California we are talking about this in the context of potentially $92 in basic charges for a utility account soon. So generator backup for 10 days in winter will probably be cheaper than maintaining a utility account. Especially that being on grid already normally involves a few generator days.
.1% is made up, but I stand by it. This forum might represent 1% of solar owners, who are in the top 10% of battery storage capability. Among us, I postulate that only 1-5% of us can actually make it through winter without a shortage and generator run or grid backup event.
FWIW, the situation described is a bit of a special use-case. The easy and immediate solution is for the landlord or manager to convert the building to a single utility service and sub-meter tenants. It becomes cheaper for everyone, even if the landlord adds a $10/tenant fee for billing and the capital cost to convert.
There are a few similar programs around, like community solar. They pose a challenge because of the way they use utility infrastructure.
If you want change, become active in your PUC meetings and raise a stink.
There are a few similar programs around, like community solar. They pose a challenge because of the way they use utility infrastructure.
If you want change, become active in your PUC meetings and raise a stink.
daklein
New Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2020
- Messages
- 190
Agree, although it's very conveniently understood how it works. Michigan lost net metering around 2019, and now use inflow/ outflow metering called distributed generation.
Inflow you pay whatever the rate you're on. Outflow get credit (currently) for the power supply or energy cost for your rate, but no credit for delivery since utility is doing the delivery to your neighbors.
Seems reasonably fair. Utilities are always trying lower the outflow credit to wholesale LMP, and I can see their point. But there is also more value to putting solar on the grid, way out at the edge of the grid, and we should be compensated for that. Solar outflow is generally coincident with peak loads on the grid, so it reduces load or adds capacity when it is needed most.
The generator issue is real. It isn't a big deal with a small Honda unit 20' or more from your property line for a few hours during the day, but a 20kW unit running at night is quite annoying from personal experience.
Specific to California, air quality issues also come into play. Getting rid of [most of] the smog was a long journey and small inefficient generators all over the place are a threat to that.
I'd say closer to 1% than 5! For my 30kWh average daily demand I would need essentially 20kW of PV and 90kWh of battery (and the ability to convince my wife to not do laundry on cloudy days) and I am at 21º latitude.
That system would have a LCOE of $0.83/kWh at current interest rates.
SilverbackMP
Solar Addict
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2022
- Messages
- 941
Don’t run it at night. You don’t have to do a full charge either. Just enough to get by until the weather is scheduled to break.
A 20-30kw diesel generator is much less annoying than a screaming open platform 8k gas setup. Of course propane is quieter yet.
I was thinking about auto starting this one…might still at something like 5% of charge just for a back up. Have it cut off at maybe 50%.
But I will figure out remote start and just keep an eye on things…and fire it up at the same time as energy intensive but interment tasks…wood working and plasma cutting.
That way the extra amps will be there to assist.
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ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Give it time... don't borrow money to do it.
I dunno, the cheapest way to save money is micro-inverters and grid-tie. That is what the majority of the instant solar folks are doing anyway, so CA is really just going to be skimming off the savings of most of the solar folks. Once you start adding batteries leave CA. The weather isn't THAT great.I don't think this over-regulation will fly most places other than CA. I'm also hopeful we will see the mini and micro nuclear stuff, which will make some of this moot if the regulators will let them build it. I'll probably be dead before it matters.
ampsarus
Real Goods Refugee
I'm sure Loretta Lynch has something to say about this, not that it matters much since she's out of office. A true expert on the subject though.
[edit] I still have some hope that she has influence on .ca.gov and the CPUC
[edit] I still have some hope that she has influence on .ca.gov and the CPUC
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
We should all install an English Electric generator, that would persuade them that solar is best.
Stick with it, the turbo's join the party after 30 seconds, then the flames and coal start rolling !!!
In our area, almost all of the new housing built is townhomes. The builders like Beazer contract with Sunpower who installs the prescribed number of panels on the rooftop of the townhome. the sadness of this is that these "rooftops" may face North, South, East or West or varying degrees. The result is that one homeowner may have their panels facing South while the other Northeast! And they are set into the roof in such a way that adding to the array is not possible. Microinverters are installed and the line runs right into the main service panel. No hybrid inverter, no batteries. Adding to this is either the "purchase price in full at the time of closing" which will be about 18k to 25k depending on the square footage of the townhome and panels installed or you can opt for the like 20 year monthly payment plan from Sunpower.Give it time... don't borrow money to do it.
I don't think this over-regulation will fly most places other than CA. I'm also hopeful we will see the mini and micro nuclear stuff, which will make some of this moot if the regulators will let them build it. I'll probably be dead before it matters.
What makes this all even worse is that the home has to be very energy efficient. This is accomplished by installing a smaller HVAC and furnace as well as a very small refrigerator in the kitchen. Same for laundry room. The appliances are neutered, the PV system sucks and the price is high as well as the cost of the home. Don't want to buy it, I don't blame you but plenty of cash buyers here and plenty of persons who need to rent so that's the bottom line. It stinks.
That reminds me, there's a guy not too far from here (in Ohio) that put solar on his roof. On his NORTH facing roof. Can't imagine he gets much out of it, and it seems utterly pointless. Only reason I can think of that he did that is he didn't want the panels visible from the front, but then why did he even bother...
daklein
New Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2020
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- 190
Some communities have zoning or rules preventing street-side solar.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
Planning ahead for the real SHTF?
If Earth Spins Off Its Axis, Where Does That Leave Us?
Scientists have already viewed Earth spinning faster, but what happens if it ever goes off its axis?
