Considering DIY Long distance from panels

[Hedges]

50 kWh/day in summer is not a big deal to implement. 8kW to 10kW of panels, can be had around $2500 for old stuff, $4000 for relatively nice, $5000 and up new. Some inverters in the $1500 range, similar for 5kWh batteries. If you scrounge mounting hardware, might spend as $6k to $10k for a system with 10kWh storage, buffering loads like A/C all day long and modest load at night. About $80/month amortized over a decade.

5 kWh of batteries is a good buffer for daytime usage, like big PV array and inefficient A/C. So long as you don't have to run A/C after sundown.
PV strings aimed and morning and afternoon sun will provide more flat power curve.

Something like this at the house:

Battery Inverter Solar Cabinet: (QTY 2) SMA Sunny Island SI-6048 w/ Warranty | eBay

These cabinets were designed and built by DC Solar. If you use the cabinet as-is there are only 2 connections required to have a functioning system (battery connection and solar panel connection). This setup will generate power even when there is no connection to the power grid.

www.ebay.com

And these (assuming they work even though they say "for repair") at the array:

Lot of 4 - SMA Technologies Sunny Boy (3) SB 5000-US Inverter, and (1) SB 7000 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lot of 4 - SMA Technologies Sunny Boy (3) SB 5000-US Inverter, and (1) SB 7000 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Or up to four of these, if you're not a gambling man:

SMA SunnyBoy SB6000 US 6kW Solar Power Inverter - w/ Mounts + AC/DC Disconnects | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SMA SunnyBoy SB6000 US 6kW Solar Power Inverter - w/ Mounts + AC/DC Disconnects at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Would give you a powerful system similar to mine.
I run AC all day no problem, may not make it through the night with multiple old refrigerators, yard lights, tube amp.

These could cost you $7600 plus shipping and maybe tax.
12kW from batteries + 24kW from PV.

Have to pay attention to what batteries you want to use. Lead-acid is easy, but for lithium it is preferred they have compatible BMS.

 

[42OhmsPA]

What a thread. Some people have a lot more patience than me....
@georgia088 your head is probably spinning with information (and misinformation) overload.
If you already have at least one battery and just want to get your feet wet I'd recommend going on your local craiglist and searching for used panels, don't pay over $0.30/watt, you can get them new for that minus freight (eventually the addiction will take hold and you'll want more more more, I'm warning you now). Pick up a few panels and build a mount, you mentioned you like to DIY...
I would recommend looking for a budget AIO that is capable of being paralleled and accepts a high VoC ~500v, pay attention to the startup voltage for the mppt, this is why I mentioned a few panels. I have been running an SRNE AIO for about 2 months, prior to that I was running a Voltronic based. I would recommend both brands but you need to be selective with the Voltronic models and manufactured date.
I have some info that should be helpful to you here https://diysolarforum.com/threads/srne-asf48100u200-h-10kw.67809/ I would also recommend you search for build threads from the other members that have already provided excellent feedback.
Once you get your feet wet, you'll quickly be ready to go full scale and should be able to utilize your existing wire to run a high voltage DC array back to one of the MPPTs on your AIO or upgrade that as well and use it for a backup.
Don't hesitate to ask more questions and start new threads, this is an excellent forum and has a great ignore feature for trolls. I haven't been here long but I wouldn't be any where close to where I am in my energy independence journey without 99.9% of the amazing members sharing info.
That was a bit of a ramble, I hope none of the advice above was bad and ask anyone to correct me, I promise I won't argue I was correct over my cellular connection; I like to learn from my mistakes so I can make bigger ones next time ?.

Edit to add these to links that were / are invaluable in my planning.

PVWatts

Estimates the energy production and cost of energy of grid-connected photovoltaic (PV) energy systems throughout the world. It allows homeowners, small building owners, installers and manufacturers to easily develop estimates of the performance of potential PV installations

pvwatts.nrel.gov

SunCalc sun position- und sun phases calculator

Application for determining the course of the sun at a desired time and place with interactive map.

www.suncalc.org

 

[Supervstech]

F.Y.I.
50kWh a day is only 17ish amps at 120V continuous.

Few of us have a draw for 24 hours straight, but parasitic drains, and spot large loads like a microwave or ac unit push it there quickly.

With sufficient solar, the daylight loads can be managed, but that is rarely 1/3 the usage... many of us use the bulk of the daily in the daylight hours, but evening cooking, and such adds up quickly.


It is a good idea to have the loads detailed out across the day...

Say, 6am to noon, noon to dusk/8pm loads hourly, then 8pm to 6am loads itemized by the hour to know the best arrangement of panels to battery or grid supply...

If the bulk can be managed by daylight, the panels can supply it, with enough to fill the batteries before nightfall.

Spreading it out on paper can assist deciding on how much of what component you need.

Large appliances like induction stoves, convection ovens microwaves, ac compressors all have running and startup needs that need be met.

Having all this info is important to prevent buying what you don't need, or being disappointed with what you do.

 

[georgia088]

Just for the record, (I haven’t processed all the new info provided I will dig back in to it as it seems to be great info), I think part of what has my head spinning are the abbreviations…. I’m new and prob going to show my ignorance, but it took me about 12 posts to figure out that aio meant all in one(I think that’s right) …. Maybe I should have known that, but I thought it was a company…. Google is my friend and I’m trying, but for a newbie, or maybe just an idiot i don’t know, Deye, SolAr, Victron, (just to name a few), then add in the different user names…geez Im reading a foreign language! I’m learning though!

 

[42OhmsPA]

I wish I found this link before I started...

Commonly used Forum Acronyms & Abbreviations

Solar is befuddling enough! Why use acronyms? Well, we're lazy typists.... :LOL: xSyP - e.g., 2S2P, shorthand for how many cells in Series (S) and Parallel (P). A - Amperes or amps. A measure of current. See warning. AC - Air Conditioning, sometimes A/C. AC - Alternating Current, a waveform...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Lt.Dan]

Just for the record, (I haven’t processed all the new info provided I will dig back in to it as it seems to be great info), I think part of what has my head spinning are the abbreviations…. I’m new and prob going to show my ignorance, but it took me about 12 posts to figure out that aio meant all in one(I think that’s right) …. Maybe I should have known that, but I thought it was a company…. Google is my friend and I’m trying, but for a newbie, or maybe just an idiot i don’t know, Deye, SolAr, Victron, (just to name a few), then add in the different user names…geez Im reading a foreign language! I’m learning though!

It's definitely hard to pick up on the lingo, so don't feel bad. I'm still learning more of them...

 

[georgia088]

wish I found this link before I started

Wow. Yea, I need to review that. I guess someone else had a hard time too! It’s killing me!

 

[Zwy]

I have to admit I don’t plan or see the benefit of replacing my perfectly good 16 seer (I know this isn’t super efficient) ac unit with the most energy efficient unit. I would consider replacing it when the ac unit goes out, but not at this time.

It's a toss up, on one hand it uses excess energy for the same cooling and may require a large inverter to start it. On the other hand, it is there and working. For the inverter heat pump, less energy usage and more efficient use of the energy, no hard starting and you get a 30% tax credit.

How big is your house? Energy efficiency always pays, this includes insulation, zoning for HVAC, and many other energy savings devices, not just the big loads or most costly to replace.

Same for my refrigerator. I think I would then have to look at cost of the energy efficient appliance vs. return on energy savings. How much are these ac units you are talking about?

It would depend on whether you want to zone using heat pumps or just one central unit. It also depends on whether you can do the work yourself. Many DIY will go with the Mr Cool or the EG4 mini splits as it allows zoning and it is DIY friendly with quick connect lines and do not require an evacuation using a vacuum pump.

As for a budget, I don’t have a budget. I don’t have unlimited funds either. I have the batteries or at least one set possibly 2. 48v 105ah. That is what has sparked the interest in connection them to my house with solar to charge. With those one or two packs what is the best route to go? How many panels? What size inverter. What is best way to connect to grid? Taking in to consideration I may want to expand later.

With those 2 batteries I'd look to installing a critical loads system and move those circuits to it. If you plan on expanding later, then you need to take that into account when choosing an inverter. The inverter should be AIO and have the ability to switch back to grid power automatically if batteries are depleted. There are plenty of choices out there with new ones coming out all the time. That requires research on your part, you need to define what you would like to run, for how long and if/when you might expand your system. Then you research each unit in the forums. I will tell you if you look in the archives for this forum, you will some inverters (and I owned a pair) are not worth the time installing them as you most likely will have problems.

? I apparently stirred up a nest, and wow can we get on some tangents about a wide variety of… well about anything.

I think I am getting some criticism for not being clear but that has not been my intent. To be clear, I don’t know exactly what I want to do. I would like to star slow and relatively inexpensive and see how I like it and if it may benefit me to expand.

I'd look for an inverter that is at least 5000W. 3000W works for many loads but if you decide to expand down the road with a larger system, it might limit what you can actually run on split phase. Has the ability to switch back to grid power, has multiple MPPT's that are rated for 500V VOC or you can add MPPT's that are rated for 500V VOC. It could be 240V split phase or expandable to 240V split phase. I'd prefer something that can be paralleled so you can run large loads down the road if you decide to take the plunge.

There is plenty more but this gets you started to form some ideas. Don't buy anything until you know what you want to power, for how long and how many watts it will take. For example, you can put the fridge and freezer, the TV, a few light circuits on solar power with grid backup power. You need to check how many watts each item takes, you need a meter for it and write it down. This is part of an energy audit. Then you can make the plan on what you want to run with the power from your batteries.

 

[zanydroid]

Man, something is wrong with the incentives on this forum. Folks with very well written project proposals and questions get lost because they didn’t post it in the right section or didn’t bother to repost it. Seen a couple one month old ones from time to time that got zero uptake.

Meanwhile with the right trolls (intentional or otherwise), like on this thread or that insane science fair AC coupling to a Prius thread, gets an inequitable level of attention.

I guess threads like this do have some kind of entertainment value

“For best service rile up the most drama”

 

[Madcodger]

I would go fiber just because I’m paranoid about lightning strikes.

I hesitated to put even one more comment onto this monster of a thread, but re cat 5/6 over distance...

Smart to be concerned about lightning. I'm in Maine, which gets considerably less lightning than areas further south. But two years ago we fried a switch, access point, and a connected device, and then this year another access point and a POE switch, from lightning over buried cat6. I now have a pile of surge arrestors to install over winter, to hopefully cut down on next summer's damage. And I've noticed that of course lightning seems to prefer expensive APs over cheap cameras, when deciding what to destroy.

 

[georgia088]

For the inverter heat pump, less energy usage and more efficient use of the energy, no hard starting and you get a 30% tax credit.

Interesting, is this a dollar for dollar tax credit similar to the solar credit? (ex. $1000 unit purchased $300 refunded to taxes?)

How big is your house?

3500 sf. 12 years old. 2 level foam insulation. 1 level is walk out finished basement. The earth is a great insulator it seems.

It also depends on whether you can do the work yourself. Many DIY will go with the Mr Cool or the EG4 mini splits as it allows zoning

I am familiar with these. I have installed two. It may be the route I go, but I probably won't until my central unit has issues beyond my repair or cost more than I am willing to pay to repair. To be honest, I haven't found the split units with dual zone or more to be cost effective over two or more single zones. It would make more sense for my setup to go with dual or maybe even more, but the price of those seem to be much higher than the price of 2 individual units. Obviously the install is more difficult with two separate units and more wire/ material, but I don't see the benefits if doing it yourself. Haven't looked too closely though.

With those 2 batteries I'd look to installing a critical loads system and move those circuits to it. If you plan on expanding later, then you need to take that into account when choosing an inverter. The inverter should be AIO and have the ability to switch back to grid power automatically if batteries are depleted.

Ok, dumb question and I'm sure I can research and find the answer, but since I seem to have a lot of knowledge reading my post, I am just going to ask. How would I go about separating the circuits? Lets say I want to run my refrigerator and 2 other 120 circuits. I can access them within my panel box, and could even pull them out of the panel box and run them to the AIO inverter, but then how does it tie to the grid? I'm guessing once you have them out of the panel and in the AIO inverter then you connect the AIO inverter to your main panel box? (Look at my use of abbreviation! I'm learning something )

 

[SilverbackMP]

Ok, dumb question and I'm sure I can research and find the answer, but since I seem to have a lot of knowledge reading my post, I am just going to ask. How would I go about separating the circuits? Lets say I want to run my refrigerator and 2 other 120 circuits. I can access them within my panel box, and could even pull them out of the panel box and run them to the AIO inverter, but then how does it tie to the grid? I'm guessing once you have them out of the panel and in the AIO inverter then you connect the AIO inverter to your main panel box? (Look at my use of abbreviation! I'm learning something )

Engineer775 on YouTube does a ton of installs with critical loads panels. He’s been stuck on SolArk in the past few years though whereas he used to do some Schneider and SMA installs. I think cause they are easier (quicker) to set up an configure. Also does long azzed wire pulls.

 

[Zwy]

Interesting, is this a dollar for dollar tax credit similar to the solar credit? (ex. $1000 unit purchased $300 refunded to taxes?)

My Pioneer 12K BTU heat pump cost me $1500. I will get a tax credit of $450. Credits carry over to next year if not used, just like solar tax credit. Non refundable like solar tax credit. A 30% discount plus the energy savings makes it a very good deal. The idea is to retire older units. I did find a calculator to help decide whether moving to a higher SEER rated unit makes sense. https://www.seerenergysavings.com/ Be sure to input your energy costs/Kwh at the bottom and location.

Be aware newer units are rated in SEER2 and older units would only be rated under SEER. The difference would be a SEER2 is about 4.7% more efficient than an older SEER rated unit with the same rating number.

3500 sf. 12 years old. 2 level foam insulation. 1 level is walk out finished basement. The earth is a great insulator it seems.

Should be fairly well insulated. Takes a good sized unit for 3500 sf. Is the current unit a central unit? If so, and you have areas not used on a regular basis, it might be wise to simply zone the areas mainly used day to day.

I am familiar with these. I have installed two. It may be the route I go, but I probably won't until my central unit has issues beyond my repair or cost more than I am willing to pay to repair. To be honest, I haven't found the split units with dual zone or more to be cost effective over two or more single zones. It would make more sense for my setup to go with dual or maybe even more, but the price of those seem to be much higher than the price of 2 individual units. Obviously the install is more difficult with two separate units and more wire/ material, but I don't see the benefits if doing it yourself. Haven't looked too closely though.

I prefer single units, one reason is multi head units do have some ghost flow. This creates a problem when you want one area hotter or colder than the other. This does affect zoning. As you stated, install more difficult. Price is higher. I'm installing another wall mount unit in my kitchen next year, it too will be a separate unit. A 12K BTU wall unit runs under $1000. With the tax credit and DIY install, that means it costs between $600 to $700.

Ok, dumb question and I'm sure I can research and find the answer, but since I seem to have a lot of knowledge reading my post, I am just going to ask. How would I go about separating the circuits? Lets say I want to run my refrigerator and 2 other 120 circuits. I can access them within my panel box, and could even pull them out of the panel box and run them to the AIO inverter, but then how does it tie to the grid? I'm guessing once you have them out of the panel and in the AIO inverter then you connect the AIO inverter to your main panel box? (Look at my use of abbreviation! I'm learning something )

Most AIO units have an internal transfer switch. Go to this Resources page, click on download button on the right upper corner. Open the pdf file, go to page 6 which shows diagram #2. This diagram applies to just about any AIO inverter with an internal transfer switch. Only difference would be where N-G bond occurs.

Loads panel is added after the inverter. One breaker in main panel feeds grid power to inverter. Internal transfer switch automatically switches power source between inverter and grid according to your settings.

Purchase a large enough loads panel in case you decide to expand. I have 240V split phase with a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters entirely similar to page 15 diagram #10.

 

[georgia088]

Credits carry over to next year if not used, just like solar tax credit

So, I purchased mini split in October of 2022. Never claimed any tax credit. I then purchased one August of this year. I assume I definitely can claim the one purchased this year. What about last year? I assume no.

 

[Hedges]

If you installed it in 2022, you can file 1040x amended return.
If you didn't install it until 2023, you can claim it for that year.

 

[georgia088]

If you installed it in 2022, you can file 1040x amended return.
If you didn't install it until 2023, you can claim it for that year.

Interesting. I didn't install until 2023. I will definitely claim both come tax season! Thanks!

 

[georgia088]

What is the down side of these really cheap inverters like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/PowMr-Inverter-Controller-Lead-Acid-Lithium/dp/B08GFJZPVL/ref=asc_df_B08GFJZPVL/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459533906149&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12752116670929386716&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010912&hvtargid=pla-987923034668&th=1

Is it efficiency? Or, they quit working all together?

 

[Hedges]

Many people here use various brands that seem similar to that one.

It is not able to backfeed grid or blend power. It can run off PV & battery, switching to grid when that doesn't work.
No-load power consumption and reliability vary between brands and models.

Those are single-phase, 120V only or 220V only. It is possible to use with an auto-transformer, but that causes problems if also fed from grid. Better to get a 120/240V split-phase unit or two stackable 120V units.

"Surge Capacity 2* rated power for 5 seconds" sounds good, not all light weight inverters can do that. 2 x 5000W = 10,000W. About what you need to start a motor that operates on 2000W (assume 5x operating current for a second is needed.) So should be able to power a 120V 15A A/C (or 240V 8A)

Inverter is a modest part of system cost. PV panels a bit more, battery maybe even more. Plan your whole system, and you might change your mind on brand, performance, price.

 

[Zwy]

What is the down side of these really cheap inverters like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/PowMr-Inverter-Controller-Lead-Acid-Lithium/dp/B08GFJZPVL/ref=asc_df_B08GFJZPVL/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459533906149&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12752116670929386716&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010912&hvtargid=pla-987923034668&th=1

Is it efficiency? Or, they quit working all together?

Looks to be a Voltronic built unit. The display gives it away. MPP Solar, Growatt, EG4 6500EX were all made by Voltronic with different specs depending on the house brand.

PowMr is now selling a SRNE unit. Look thru this thread. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/srne-asf48100u200-h-10kw.67809/
This the 5000W SRNE unit and it is parallelable. https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-Con...-inverters/dp/B0BX67RKMW?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

I would consider the 10K SRNE split phase unit but it is not parallelable yet.

If you are thinking of using a Voltronic unit, this is what I run my whole house with. https://watts247.com/product/2-x-lv...ar-inverter-8kw-2-x-4kw-250v-mppt-bms-ul1741/

Ian is clearancing the LV6548 out and no longer providing support. Mine have worked trouble free. He responded recently to me that he had too many people coming to him for support when he hadn't sold them the unit.

 

[georgia088]

Ok, been doing a little research, still a little overwhelming. I'm just trying to get an idea of how all this works. This thread went in all different directions I know, and I have debated on whether to start a new thread, but everyone that has read my responses has seen that I don't really know what I want or what I am trying to accomplish just trying to figure things out. So, at this point I am trying to figure out what it would take to make my parents camper completely self sufficient and off the grid. They have a 2800 watt generator to help keep batteries charged on high load days and especially through the night to be able to run the A/C unit. There are no restrictions on running the generator at night and the camper will be permanently placed at the location.
This is what I am looking at as being possibly the bare minimum. Also, I did not do shopping around or try to find "name brand" just grabbed from google. Please correct me.

(10) 365W Panels like this:

NE Solar - 370W Black Frame 120 Half Cells Mono Solar Panel

Low Priced Solar Panels NE Solar NE Solar - 370W Black Frame 120 Half Cells Mono Solar Panel from altE® - Making Renewable Do-able since 1999.

www.altestore.com

An AIO Inverter/Charge controller like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-Controller-Hybrid-Parallel-inverters/dp/B0BX67RKMW?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

I did not see where that inverter comes with a transfer switch. Wouldn't I need a transfer switch to allow the generator go charge the batteries when solar was not available?

2 or 3 105Ah 48v DIY LIFEPO4 Battery Packs.

Now, what else (minus wire/fuses/connectors) would I need?

Thanks!