Electric Companies slowly taking back control

[Ampster]

The statement is not wrong

I specifically said the statement was meaningless. Revenue and profit are entirely different things. Their profit and salaries are in the millions. Your exaggeration that seemed to imply billions was just that, an exaggeration. Enron and Madoff both exaggerated their numbers. Exaggeration lessons your argument and that is all I am saying. I think we can agree that their executive salaries are high and that many utilities have historically paid out big dividends to their shareholders.

 

[Hedges]

"Exaggeration lessons"

You mean they go to school for that?
... I suppose so, business school and all that.
Have a nice Freudian Thursday.

 

[Ampster]

You mean they go to school for that?

Haha. Exaggeration is definitely a learned trait. I see my three year old grand daughter trying it out on adults.

 

[Deleted member 1888]

Ok lets bring this back to the topic of solar and power companies not greedy CEOs.

There are 3 simple solutions for ppl in CA and all over the US.
1.(Easy way) Build up an off grid solar system to meet your BASIC survival needs IE water(well pump, or sump pump from rain barrel), lights, freezer, cooktop(others like Oxygen generator if you need that). Yes not everyone has the space for a 15k array but everyone has some space they are wasting and can use for solar and it just may be enough to keep you alive in a crisis. If you have your own land then build up a system as large as you can afford.

2.(hard way) get with ppl in your area that have land to put lots of solar and help them pay for a large system that you partly own. Then run wires to your house to provided they are not to far way and the voltage drop is not to great.

3.(Very hard way) You and many others must put massing pressure on you local and state leaders to allow competition in the power sector. Right now many areas how a monopoly on providing power. The same thing is true in many other areas like cable tv, or Internet, sometimes even gas stations. Competition will bring prices down dramatically for consumers.

There is no other way to solve this, its up to each person to figure out witch one to do.

 

[Ampster]

I am heading in the direction of option #1 with some variation. I am not going off grid but I do have a hybrid inverter with a big battery pack. I will remain connected but use the grid as backup. I have two EVs and don't think it is efficient to charge my EVs from my pack. I am experimenting with charging my EVs with available solar after the pack is charged. It is not perfect and some power comes from the grid but it is trivial.
Also there are seasonal differences in solar production so I tend to use the grid more during winter. Fortunately rates are lower in winter.
At the same time I spend some of my time communicating with my elected officials.

 

[wattmatters]

I am heading in the direction of option #1 with some variation. I am not going off grid but I do have a hybrid inverter with a big battery pack. I will remain connected but use the grid as backup.

I think this is a reasonable and at not an overly cost prohibitive option in many cases. Throwing out the baby (i.e. the grid) with the bathwater seems an over the top response to grid outages.

I live in an area with a less reliable grid supply relative to much of the nation but even here the grid is up 99.5% of the time (when I lived in the city it was 99.99+%). I keep detailed stats on our outages so have a pretty good idea of the frequency, duration, time of day, time of year such events occur. Summer storms are the main culprit but occasionally it's some other random event (e.g. car hits power pole). By far and away the most common reason for an outage is transmission related, not generation related and usually following/during a severe weather event.

But everyone lives in areas with varying degrees of grid reliability and with different tariff regimes, so the suitable solution will vary.

In the city I talked about earlier I just wouldn't bother with backup at all. With just one 2 hour outage in 20 years, what would be the point? Grid tied solar makes perfect sense in such a tariff regime as the payback financially is ~4 years and environmentally it's ~1.5 years. Solar/grid tied batteries are not even close to making financial sense in most Australian cities and grid reliability isn't really a factor.

In rural areas like where we are a battery-less grid tied solar PV system still makes great financial sense, but supplemented with a power backup system. Adding a grid tied battery to the solar PV is one option but it is still very expensive and not great value. I went with a second and considerably cheaper off-grid solar PV/battery system for backup (generator for redundancy). That would cope with a grid reliability down to maybe 95-98% uptime. In context of Australian grid supply, that would be an awful level of reliability.

If the grid were less reliable than that I would look at @Ampster's solution, a hybrid system and make more productive cycling use of batteries, but still use the grid as it made sense for us. Off-peak grid power is still way better value than off-grid power so a system which uses the best of both worlds helps keeps capex down.

But if grid reliability is really atrocious, then full off-grid makes more sense. That's when the $ start to add up though.

Either way you are still needing to meet the electrical installation codes applicable to your area. Where I am that effectively rules out DIY as the code not only defines the electrical standards, it also defines who is permitted to do the work (appropriately licensed electricians). So here we are reliant on tradespeople no matter how self sufficient we hope to be. You can of course go uninsured, but that's just not a sensible option for us.

 

[wattmatters]

One cannot be dependent when you buy something

What happens when it fails, needs repair or replacement? Solar inverters have a limited life. Or a battery goes poopy in its pants? A BMS dies? A rat chews a wire in an inconvenient location? The low temp protection fails?

Sure, there are a few who are capable of opening up an inverter, diagnosing and repairing it, if they can get the requisite parts from China that is.

It's just another type of dependency.

 

[Tony Scott]

What happens when it fails, needs repair or replacement? Solar inverters have a limited life. Or a battery goes poopy in its pants? A BMS dies? A rat chews a wire in an inconvenient location? The low temp protection fails?

Sure, there are a few who are capable of opening up an inverter, diagnosing and repairing it, if they can get the requisite parts from China that is.

It's just another type of dependency.

Not the same thing, electric is a daly dependency that can be cured. Food, Water and Air are the only real dependency.

 

[fafrd]

It cost me less to go Offgrid with batteries than to run it up here. Therefore it made tremendous sense (20K versus almost 60K for grid) but not everyone is in that situation.

Reality is, that Big Power Co wants to keep folks attached "to the wire" for their profit and they do look at it over the "Long Haul", sadly many people do not look at their homes / energy systems in that same way. Fortunately the cost of Batteries is falling and will continue to do so, especially as Domestic Manufacture of LFP is commencing worldwide in 2022.

By 2025, it is more than likely all new homes built will also come with some form of Solar + Battery Storage to some level. Even new apartment buildings will more than likely come with "building level" or "Unit Level" energy storage of some sort. Rentals vs Condo's will most likely be handled differently.

Self Generation & Storage - Freedom & Independence !
The more "External Dependencies" you can free yourself from the more free & independent you are.

Whatever Freedom and Independsnce that may give you, it likely won’t include the Freedom to refuse to subsidize the costs of the grid here in California…

Be aware that Big Power is FEARFUL of Profit Loss (As they ought to be) and will do pretty much anything to retain their indentured payors. They have published & produce a LOT of Bull Hooey well splashed with Fear Mongering and Chicken Little-isms which sadly too many believe. Fear being the best tool for manipulating masses, works without fail on usually 1/3rd of those who hear it.

In California, new homes are mandated to be built with sufficient solar production to offset annual consumption.

Now, they will also be charged $8/kW of solar array size every month, translating to about $0.05 per kWh of production.

On top of that, they will only be credited at ~25% or $0.05/kWh for export so either you will be charged for ~75% of your consumption or you will need to invest in a large battery + hybrid inverter to avoid export and self-consume.

Put another way, you’ll be taxed about ~$0.05/kWh of production then credited that same $0.05/kWh for any export, then charged $0.20/kWh for all import during non-solar-production hours.

So the only actual benefit you’ll get from your consumption-offsetting solar array without a battery is to offset daytime consumption. Other that that, you’ll basically pay the same as if you had no solar at all.

Even if you decide to go full off-grid and invest in several-day-sized battery and a PV array sized to generate a full days consumption on clear days in December/January, the monthly tax you pay on that larger array (producing ~3 times annual production) basically equals the cost of just purchasing all of your energy from the grid.

So with current regulations, the lowest-cost alternative after meeting the minimum mandated requirements of installing an array sized to offset annual consumption is to add a battery large enough to capture full daily consumption to avoid export in Spring/Fall (September/October & March/April) which means you’ll end up paying about ~half of the full retail rate for your annual consumption annually…

What’s going to get sorted out in court over the next few years in California is whether the utility has the right to charge customers who never use the grid a monthly ‘Grid Benefits Charge’.

 

[Wibla]

We even have Amish (Mennonites) who never connect to the Grid installing Solar Power & Batteries... Seems they got over the hump and realized that this does not Bind Them to an External, quite the opposite as it reduces their use of Generators & Gasoline/Diesel to run them and they do use Gennies a LOT.

From the last page, but I find this both hilarious and interesting. Can you tell us more about how they operate?

 

[Tony Scott]

We average a dozen grid outages a year. Longest was a bit over 2 days but that could readily be longer. It's why I have backup (an off-grid solar PV/battery system + generator for redundancy).

I don't blame the energy distributor for poles and wires damaged in severe weather events causing longer outages. It's just a fact of life.

Heck there's every possibility such weather events can knock out an off-grid system given they can bring down trees on houses and remove rooftops / severely damage buildings.

Any business operating in such an outage prone area and which is dependent on electrical energy supply to operate/avoid damage would do well to have backup. Most businesses in that category near me do. My neighbouring property has a 125kW backup generator and a 4000 litre LPG tank.

But grid supply outages per se are not necessarily a reason to to go completely off-grid. They might be a contributing factor but on its own I don't think so.

For us setting up backup and staying on grid is WAY cheaper than going full off-grid.

And frankly, any decent off-grid set up will also incorporate a backup source of energy, same as if you are on grid.

How many freezers to do have? (I have 4)? Long term furl storage is cumbersome and if the area of outage is large enough fuel can be hard to come by. These are public utilities and they have done a poor job of taking care of the public hence the backlash. They could run the line underground where feasible especially in cities. But they don’t, you can ride through large cities in Virginia, Maryland to name a few with sidewalks sewer lines everything still have powerlines and power poles above ground. The U.S doesn’t manufacture any electrical equipment, it all has to be shipped in. If anything going solar improves Homeland Security

 

[fafrd]

Ok lets bring this back to the topic of solar and power companies not greedy CEOs.

There are 3 simple solutions for ppl in CA and all over the US.

1.(Easy way) Build up an off grid solar system to meet your BASIC survival needs IE water(well pump, or sump pump from rain barrel), lights, freezer, cooktop(others like Oxygen generator if you need that). Yes not everyone has the space for a 15k array but everyone has some space they are wasting and can use for solar and it just may be enough to keep you alive in a crisis. If you have your own land then build up a system as large as you can afford.

For self-sufficiency, that is fine, but it’s not going to avoid being taxed for the size of your array monthly (and so there is no break-even).

2.(hard way) get with ppl in your area that have land to put lots of solar and help them pay for a large system that you partly own. Then run wires to your house to provided they are not to far way and the voltage drop is not to great.

It’s an interesting question what is involved in a ‘community’ establishing an independent Utility so that it is no longer served by the grid. I’m guessing being incorporated is a minimum.

3.(Very hard way) You and many others must put massing pressure on you local and state leaders to allow competition in the power sector. Right now many areas how a monopoly on providing power. The same thing is true in many other areas like cable tv, or Internet, sometimes even gas stations. Competition will bring prices down dramatically for consumers.

I’m suspecting you don’t live in California.

This State has figured out that their governance over a State-controlled monopoly essentially translates to an additional authority to tax citizens at will. It’s not called a ‘tax’, it’s called TOU pricing and now Grid Benefits Charge, but no amount of ‘pressure’ on political leaders will ever cause California to take their hand out of the cookie jar.

Perhaps if enough citizens vote with their feet and leave the State they’ll eventually get the message, but even then I doubt it.

There is no other way to solve this, its up to each person to figure out witch one to do.

You missed the most compelling solutions:

A/ Do nothing. Pay what they charge for electricity and forgo backup power (or build a hybrid/battery backup that uses grid energy to charge and not solar).

B/ Build the minimum size system you need to deliver backup power during an extended outage. 1kW of solar generation will only be taxed at $8/month, should be plenty to power essentials during and extended outage when paired with a modestly-sized battery, and should translate to ~100% of generated energy being utilized to offset consumption (so break-even on some sane horizon).

C/ Build a system sized to generate, capture and offset consumption in Fall/Spring (so more production than needed in Summer and insufficient production in Winter). Interestingly, a system sized this way ends up being roughly the same as being sized to offset annual consumption (which is the size array being mandated on new construction). By my estimates, a system sized for this should cut annual electrical costs in ~half which means it may offer a reasonable timeframe to break-even if battery costs and panel costs continue to decline as rapidly as they have been.

The early NEM programs in California offered the promise of offsetting your utility bill, but that’s now going the way of the Dodo bird.

The new rules suggest that offsetting ~half of your utility bill will be about the best you can hope for going forward…

 

[Hedges]

The early NEM programs in California offered the promise of offsetting your utility bill, but that’s niloe going the way of the Dodo bird.

In the Beginning, putting in enough PV to offset highest tier, and staying on tiered (not time of use) plan probably offered the best payback.

I placed a bet that cost of PV was about to go up along with energy, due to the energy input in manufacturing it. I figure I only broke even over 17 years with my system. Cost today would be about $1/watt, vs. $8/watt I paid (neglecting incentives of 28% today, 50% back then.)

For self-sufficiency, that is fine, but it’s not going to avoid being taxed for the size of your array monthly (and so there is no break-even).

If tax does get based on inverter rating not PV array size, then over-paneling GT inverter or having oversize array with SCC and right-sized inverter might make it not so bad. But cost-effective batteries would have to be part of the mix. I put DIY LiFePO4 at $0.05/kWh over their cycle life, so they hold promise compared to $0.20 to $0.50/kWh utility rates.

I think a bunch of us are hoping zero export or limited export gets taxed on export rating, not behind-the-meter production capacity.

 

[fafrd]

If tax does get based on inverter rating not PV array size, then over-paneling GT inverter or having oversize array with SCC and right-sized inverter might make it not so bad. But cost-effective batteries would have to be part of the mix. I put DIY LiFePO4 at $0.05/kWh over their cycle life, so they hold promise compared to $0.20 to $0.50/kWh utility rates.

Good point. Sizing your PV array so that it saturates in the morning and stays flat until evening could change the math. You’ll throttle-back a lot of power you could have exported in summer when you didn’t need it and you’ll increase your output in winter when a properly-sized inverter would never get close to saturating.

I’ve got 3.5kW of Microinverters but only had 1.5kW of output at 11am this morning and won’t get much past 2.5kW all day today.

So if I had 2kW of Microinverters instead of 3.5kW, my monthly Grid Benefits Charge would drop 43% to $16/month, I’d still be generating more than enough power to cover summer months, and the lost production in winter months would be relatively minor.

Since the $12/month saved on a lower Grid Benefits Charge translates to $60kWh of monthly consumption or more than 30% of December/January production, I’d be coming out ahead…

I think a bunch of us are hoping zero export or limited export gets taxed on export rating, not behind-the-meter production capacity.

Yeah, we’ll need to see how the rules end up getting implemented.

But even if they end up basing the monthly grid benefits charge on production rating, massive overpanelling could be a interesting strategy.

Going ‘short and wide’ is easy to do and becomes more and more sensible as panel prices continue trending down.

Of course, for us legacy customers who have already built our systems (or at least those of us that went with Microinverters), that’s less of an option…

 

[fafrd]

I think a bunch of us are hoping zero export or limited export gets taxed on export rating, not behind-the-meter production capacity.

I went back to read the CPUC decision and here is what it says:

‘The [Grid Participation] charge will be a fixed monthly charge based on the number of kilowatts installed in a residential customers system.’

So unless the language is changed in the final decision next month, I see very little chance the utilities choose to tax based on export rating…

Also, upon closer reading I see that I got one important detail incorrect. The successor tariff is going to Monthly Billing but is retaining the annual true-up (so it is still preserving credit for excess summer generation that can be used to offset winter consumption).

The credit of excess summer production is being reduced by 75%, so it still pulls most of the rug out from under the current NEM program, but I’ll need to redo my math since I was assuming no credit carrying forward month to month…

I’m still unsure what this translates to if you ‘over pay’ through winter and then end the year post-summer with a bunch of credit (I suspect that credit may be lost), but at least for customers who start their true-up period in April/May when they should be generating credits, it should be possible to offset some/most winter consumption charges from credit you carried over from summer…

 

[wattmatters]

These are public utilities and they have done a poor job of taking care of the public hence the backlash.

I have no reason to doubt this is the case where you live, however this is not a universal situation.

How many freezers to do have?

Not sure how this is pertinent to the discussion but we have three if you must know. They all operate just fine with my off-grid backup system if we have a grid outage.

They could run the line underground where feasible especially in cities. But they don’t

Underground power grids are phenomenally expensive to build, install and especially expensive to maintain/repair. At least an order of magnitude more expensive than overhead power transmission.

 

[wattmatters]

ok, Ill clarify what I mean and why I have no faith in any of those supposed " facts ", I have nothing against a company making a FAIR profit.. however just as a example

Your anecdotes are not good reading, and I in no way suggest power companies (or any utility or corporate) should be absolved of poor behaviour or unethical business practices. They are far from perfect.

While in no way diminishing your experiences, they are still anecdotal and it's a bit of a leap to extrapolate that more broadly. Cooking their public books is a very very long bow to draw, and in Ergon's case especially given they are a state government owned enterprise.

Yes, unethical crap happens, e.g. look at the findings of Banking/Finance Royal Commission. Still and even though there were woeful practices, and as reprehensible and damaging as they were, they were largely confined to specific segments of such businesses, and not the case for much of the sector. But the reputational damage is enormous and it's not surprising people are still very angry about it and remain distrustful.

There is kick back against such things, usually more regulation. After the Enron debacle in the US, Sarbanes Oxley came in, I recall at the time as I happened to be working for a NASDAQ listed company and we needed to make plenty of changes to reporting and systems as a result. These regulatory reactions usually work for a bit, then people get creative...

The best defence is education. It's the vulnerable I do feel sorry for.

 

[wattmatters]

‘The [Grid Participation] charge will be a fixed monthly charge based on the number of kilowatts installed in a residential customers system.’

Yeah, that's a bit silly. I can understand a grid participation change on exports* but not on behind the grid consumption.

* provided there is a quid pro quo such as reduced grid participation changes on imports, or service level guarantees or infrastructure investment for enabling export.

There is a proposal in Australia for an A$0.02/kWh charge to be levied by distributors onto retailers for rooftop solar PV exports. But along with that proposal power distributors will be required to invest in infrastructure to enable more rooftop solar PV to be connected to the grid, they must remove any export prohibitions and lift export power limits, and reduce the grid service fee levied on energy imports.

It's a proposal that's been met with the usual hysterical responses from the same tired old commentators but they fail to recognise it will aid the ongoing strong growth of rooftop solar PV in Australia.

 

[Austint]

That is not how they view it. All their control systems are designed for one way control. Your power just flows to your neighbors and reduces the load at the sub station. What the power company is concerned about is when enough people are generating to reverse the flow through the substation their control systems will not work correctly. That was a problem in Hawaii

Almost all distribution protection is either a 50 element ( instantaneous overcurrent ) or the 51 element which is (timed overcurrent) . The instantaneous is usually set high for faults that are near the sub and the 51 is set according to the available fault current . The end of line fault is determined using the source impedance and impedance of the distribution line . The pickup is usually set between 1/3 to 1/2 of the available fault current because of the uncertainty of the fault resistance . The time to trip is determined by the fault magnitude and the selected TCC ( time current curve ). The idea is to have device closest to the fault trip first but have upstream devices pickup and operate if the closest device does not operate .
Now back to Solar Infeed - With the Solar feeding the fault it makes the coordination more difficult because the settings need to work if the Solar contribution is there or not .
Too much contribution to a feeder and it doesn’t work . If we are dealing with solar farms into transmission lines the 21 element ( impedance relay ) is affected and the fault appears farther down the line to the relay than it really is .

 

[Wibla]

Things have progressed a wee bit in the medium/high voltage protection market since the dark ages, and there are ways to deal with these failure modes in a relatively smart way using modern, networked protection devices.

Of course that costs money, so we can't do that. Better to legislate the problem away instead.