The Sigineer Power 6k inverter looks to be the same build as the Growatt spf 6k T dmv. When I bought mine was advertised as a L.F., but later proved by Lan & Watts 24/7 to be a H.F., with transformer. Even though it worked fine, (off grid) not a true LF inverter.
High Frequency vs. Low Frequency Inverter - Does it matter??
- Thread starter Cduck28z
- Start date
They do indeed make the Growatt LF units as well
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
What Ian said about those inverters is absolutely not correct, they are LF. He just decided to slag them off when he was done selling his batch.
So another user reported their ACTUAL 5kva Victron Quattro idle consumption of 55w
That is a 120v 4k LF inverter with toroidal transformer
@HighTechLab mentioned a high sigineer idle consumption but I contend with the following:
To achieve the equivalent 12k inverter capacity, one would need 3 of the 5kva Quattro (ignoring the 3 phase instead of split phase issue).
3x55w=165w
What am I missing? That’s also excluding MPPT which is separate.
To be clear. I’m not contending that the sigineer/Growatt are nearly as efficient, robust, or reliable as the Victron.
But if the biggest qualm is idle consumption.
And 12k and LF, it sounds like it’s part of the territory
That is a 120v 4k LF inverter with toroidal transformer
@HighTechLab mentioned a high sigineer idle consumption but I contend with the following:
To achieve the equivalent 12k inverter capacity, one would need 3 of the 5kva Quattro (ignoring the 3 phase instead of split phase issue).
3x55w=165w
What am I missing? That’s also excluding MPPT which is separate.
To be clear. I’m not contending that the sigineer/Growatt are nearly as efficient, robust, or reliable as the Victron.
But if the biggest qualm is idle consumption.
And 12k and LF, it sounds like it’s part of the territory
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,682
My SMA system is 100W idle, but that is 4x SI 6048US, which can do 23kW continuous, 44kW 3-second surge.
I plan to eventually add an auto-transformer and configure inverters to enable 1/2/3/4 according to load. I expect that to drop idle consumption to 40W.
Warpspeed
Solar Wizard
I suppose it depends WHY you are going solar.
If you just plan to lower your electricity bills with a grid tie system, that is fine.
An inverter tied directly to the grid may have the feature to allow the grid to handle all the really large surges, and solar just contributes whatever is available to lower overall monthly grid power consumption.
If the grid goes down you may be in trouble though.
Your inverter may be completely non functional, or it may have the feature to disconnect itself from the grid and carry on independently.
But it might still not have the peak surge capacity to carry your largest nastiest loads without shutting down (or blowing up).
So choose your inverter very carefully and understand its limitations.
As others ^^^ here have already made very clear, if you are planning to start really large induction motors that may easily have starting surges sometimes ten or fifteen times as high as normal running current, then ONLY a large low frequency transformer inverter will be able to do that.
It will be very large, very heavy, and VERY expensive.
The choice is yours...
If you just plan to lower your electricity bills with a grid tie system, that is fine.
An inverter tied directly to the grid may have the feature to allow the grid to handle all the really large surges, and solar just contributes whatever is available to lower overall monthly grid power consumption.
If the grid goes down you may be in trouble though.
Your inverter may be completely non functional, or it may have the feature to disconnect itself from the grid and carry on independently.
But it might still not have the peak surge capacity to carry your largest nastiest loads without shutting down (or blowing up).
So choose your inverter very carefully and understand its limitations.
As others ^^^ here have already made very clear, if you are planning to start really large induction motors that may easily have starting surges sometimes ten or fifteen times as high as normal running current, then ONLY a large low frequency transformer inverter will be able to do that.
It will be very large, very heavy, and VERY expensive.
The choice is yours...
Warpspeed
Solar Wizard
Fifty five watts idling power for a 5Kva inverter is probably about optimum for a good design.
Its possible to build a low frequency transformer inverter with a much lower idling power than that, but the cost of the extra copper and steel in the transformer would just make it far too expensive to sell.
Would you be prepared to pay an extra $1,500 for a 5Kw inverter that had only fifteen watts of idling power ?
You would very quickly go broke trying to sell something like that.
When you work it all out, including the cost of the extra batteries to support a higher idling power, the more expensive and efficient inverter might actually come out in front. But people do not think that way.
Why should they pay more for an inverter that is still only rated for 5Kw ?
A couple of months back, (over one of the electronics Forums) I helped a guy design and wind his own toroidal transformer for a home
brew inverter that ended up being rated for 5Kw continuous, and the whole finished inverter had a final measured no load idling power of
only nine watts !!
Its certainly possible to do, but not as a successful commercial enterprise.
I'm glad to read this. Mine has performed very well and still have it for a back up. Thanks for that info.
Not sure what my 30 yr old 220 well pump hp is but it starts it every time as well as my 24k mini split.
HighTechLab
AKA Dexter - CTO of Current Connected, LLC
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2019
- Messages
- 1,691
Multiplus-2 5kva: 15w measured and LF
If you can handle the higher idle, by all means go for it. But it wasn’t good for our situation on my parents property. Just my experience with Sigineer, and there are videos of it on my HighTechLab YT channel
Maxter
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2021
- Messages
- 23
Well pump HP depends on well depth and GPM desired. Roughly a 1/2 hp pump will do a 200' deep well, 3/4 hp up to 300', 1 hp 400' and 1.5 hp for a 520' deep well. (Data for 7.5 GPM)
Yeah I messaged your sales page after watching some videos a month or two back. Always a plethora of info!
50ShadesOfDirt
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2021
- Messages
- 437
It may be that the industry is trying to move to HF inverters (or some hybrid thereof), but I think OP has these considerations that IMHO would tend to favor LF inverters:
- heavy house loads, *shop* loads
- HF inverter threads abound with (warranty, support, etc.) issues
I'd utilize a tier-1 LF inverter (although a hybrid might fit), and you'd probably get beyond 5 years or more with the core inverter. With the HF lines, I'm not so sure you'd get to the same number of years, regardless of HF "long-warranty" claims (which then have to have good support behind the claim).
Finally, any RE system, and especially those running a shop or possibly having spot/peak loads (weird HVAC units, in combination with other house loads), should consider a backup generator as part of the system. Not only will this backup solar panel output, it could carry peak or heavy spot loads, if the inverter is capable of gen auto-start.
I don't see (yet) when HF inverters match up to LF inverters in terms of performance/warranty/support, and one could count on them to run your house for upwards of 5 years or more. For the record, I am still on LF inverters (magnum), and my HF projects are small potatoes effort at this time (hand truck solar generator effort), but that's because of warranty & such (as in, some of these HF units have almost no warranty, which I equate to "quality of build").
If I were to try and run my house/loads on HF, I think I'd need at least 2 inverters, and possibly more as spares, to overcome such warranty/quality issues ... I do hope we see a time when *many* folks say "I've run my house on HF for 5 years now, the warranty has expired at 5 years, and things are still cooking", or something similar.
Hope this helps ...
- heavy house loads, *shop* loads
- HF inverter threads abound with (warranty, support, etc.) issues
I'd utilize a tier-1 LF inverter (although a hybrid might fit), and you'd probably get beyond 5 years or more with the core inverter. With the HF lines, I'm not so sure you'd get to the same number of years, regardless of HF "long-warranty" claims (which then have to have good support behind the claim).
Finally, any RE system, and especially those running a shop or possibly having spot/peak loads (weird HVAC units, in combination with other house loads), should consider a backup generator as part of the system. Not only will this backup solar panel output, it could carry peak or heavy spot loads, if the inverter is capable of gen auto-start.
I don't see (yet) when HF inverters match up to LF inverters in terms of performance/warranty/support, and one could count on them to run your house for upwards of 5 years or more. For the record, I am still on LF inverters (magnum), and my HF projects are small potatoes effort at this time (hand truck solar generator effort), but that's because of warranty & such (as in, some of these HF units have almost no warranty, which I equate to "quality of build").
If I were to try and run my house/loads on HF, I think I'd need at least 2 inverters, and possibly more as spares, to overcome such warranty/quality issues ... I do hope we see a time when *many* folks say "I've run my house on HF for 5 years now, the warranty has expired at 5 years, and things are still cooking", or something similar.
Hope this helps ...
Everything Ive read from specs to warranty horror stories to just plan failures I doubt I will ever go HF. Unless they quit making LF inverters. To much hassle/risk for real world loads. I don't want to have to run around installing soft start units and other stuff when I can just enjoy it all just working.
Its just way to handy having all of that surge on hand when needed.
Its just way to handy having all of that surge on hand when needed.
Lt.Dan
Solar Wizard
You gotta think that most of the population is also grid tied, or at the very least grid assist. This is why I have 1x SolArk 12k (a 9kw HF inverter), and have no problem running my whole house, including a 5 ton AC, because the grid is there for my surge. And since the inverter is just pumping kWh's out and not getting the harsh surge, I expect it to last ATLEAST 5 years, and hopefully 10 or more.
The amount of people who are completely off-grid and need 50kW of LF surge capability are very few and far between. This is why companies are getting away from LF. Even newer appliances are needing less inrush current as the years go by, like inverter type mini-split air conditioners.
The amount of people who are completely off-grid and need 50kW of LF surge capability are very few and far between. This is why companies are getting away from LF. Even newer appliances are needing less inrush current as the years go by, like inverter type mini-split air conditioners.
Lt.Dan
Solar Wizard
Even if everyone on those forum went off-grid, it's still probably .001% of the population that's is doing Solar.
Imagine how many less "my such and such" won't turn on or start even though it should use less watts than what my inverter says it can do threads would never of happened
Lt.Dan
Solar Wizard
Imagine how many "my 800lbs inverter fell off the wall because I out 1x 1/4" Wood Screws in the wall"Imagine how many less "my such and such" won't turn on or start even though it should use less watts than what my inverter says it can do threads would never of happened
Or "why do I keep running out of battery in the middle of the night?" "Because your inverter has way too much idle draw".
We can go round and round about it. At the end of the day, I agree that the LF inverter has its place, and is necessary, but its not for everybody, and not even for the majority of people.
I personally would rather have 2x HF inverters that can start my offgrid AC and Well pump, and maybe even add in a SoftStart to make my AC and equipment last longer, rather than have just 1x LF inverter that I have to rely on to survive.
