How can I power diesel heater since solar is probably going to be almost useless in winter when I want heat most?

[Gueyog8a7]

I spent the past month or more setting up electrics buying all the gear and solar and it just dawned on me the solar is probably going to be as good as useless now. I only got it mainly to power diesel heater electrics.

Of course the electrical system is now almost in place so can be powered by whatever but what other options do I have?

I am living in my van however I do not like driving around. Van just suits me because it is easy to move from A to B, not that I like to travel. That means the charger things that charge while you drive wont help me much either. I would have to drastically alter my living style as I only drive about once a week at the moment 10-20 minutes to do a food shop for the week.

Solar seems to be a bust.

What options do I have?

Only other thing I can think of is a generator but I dont have land to be laying stuff outside the van like that. Once I do get land, which is a plan, then I would have much more options but what to do now?

Heating is the main issue right now and have to sort it asap. I was in -6 this week with no heating. Not fun! I was warm enough in bed just about but it was horrible getting out to pee.

 

[VermontOwl]

What are your goals with solar, both quantitative and qualitative?

What do you feel you need to power using solar, and what do you want to power?

What were you doing for electricity before your attempt at solar power?

Why is a solar plan a “bust” at this point?

 

[Rednecktek]

Fortunately after the heater has gotten past its initial glow plug stage, it only needs about 40w (for the 5Kw units) on high, less if you run it on medium most of the time. Solar is still pretty viable for that low a load as that's roughly 1000Wh for a whole day.

What does your battery bank look like? LFP or lead acid? How much solar do you have and is it through a PWM or MPPT controller? Yes, in winter it's much harder to feed those but I've been able to manage feeding my two at the camp on 400w of panel. A large enough battery will get you through multiple days and if you do have to run a generator or the like you can get a fast charge on them so you're not burning much fuel.

What are your thoughts on roof mounting panels? That keeps them off the ground and you always have them working whether driving or sitting. As with all winter planning the best thing you can do is get as much solar panel up there and wired in as you can practically fit and afford. Better to have panels sitting idle with full batteries in the summer than to be freezing in the winter.

Yes, I run a LOT of these heaters, I know WAY too much about them. ?

 

[Rocketman]

Where are you - nearby big city.

How much power do you use daily? And how much power does your diesel heater use?

Panels permanently mounted on the roof are great - because they always work- maybe not in shade and not as well because they are flat mounted.

A few panels that are on the ground - tilted - and following the sun (you have to move those). Can greatly boost your power.

I would still consider a Dc-Dc charger - runs when the engine is running. That way when you do go for food - maybe you take the long way and put more charge into the battery.

The only other option is an extension cord and finding some power - some businesses have EV stalls w/ 110v power.

I hope you have a good shunt based battery monitor- like Victron Smartshunt or BMV712. That way you will know how full or empty your battery really is.

Good Luck

 

[uksuntimes]

I spent the past month or more setting up electrics buying all the gear and solar and it just dawned on me the solar is probably going to be as good as useless now. I only got it mainly to power diesel heater electrics.

Of course the electrical system is now almost in place so can be powered by whatever but what other options do I have?

I am living in my van however I do not like driving around. Van just suits me because it is easy to move from A to B, not that I like to travel. That means the charger things that charge while you drive wont help me much either. I would have to drastically alter my living style as I only drive about once a week at the moment 10-20 minutes to do a food shop for the week.

Solar seems to be a bust.

What options do I have?

Only other thing I can think of is a generator but I dont have land to be laying stuff outside the van like that. Once I do get land, which is a plan, then I would have much more options but what to do now?

Heating is the main issue right now and have to sort it asap. I was in -6 this week with no heating. Not fun! I was warm enough in bed just about but it was horrible getting out to pee.

Just as a thought - you don’t have to drive/move to run an alternator for charging. I sometime just turn mine on for an hour or so and let it idle. I can fully charge a 200ah inside of about 1.5 hours. It’s effectively like having a generator to charge from.

That said. Some vehicles don’t like to be left idling for ages.

Another option is to consider an electric blanket. Super low energy use and saves you having to heat an entire cabin.

Or go super old school with some hot water bottles and some thermal clothing. Also consider a thermally rated sleeping bag.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Van life - so you are parking somewhere - is there power available?
charging up batteries from park plug ins?
I know some work-vans with built in small 'suitcase' generators built into them, super quiet and then you aren't running the engine for long periods at idle, and these use very little fuel to run.
Other option may be charging up a battery while you are at your place of work, cut a deal for the tiny cost of the power consumed?

 

[Vigo]

I don't see the solar situation as hopeless at all. I actually think you have a very simple situation as far as the power requirement. What i would do is simply buy one large-ish (100+ah) battery to power your heater, and then charge the battery with solar, AND the alternator as backup.

If you use a lead-acid battery you can make this VERY simple by just putting a 'voltage sensing relay' aka VSR between your existing 'starter' battery and your house battery. What it does is when your van engine starts and the alternator pushes the voltage above ~13.3, it hooks the 'house' battery to the starter battery to allow the alternator to charge both of them. When the vehicle turns off and voltage drops below 12.8v, it isolates the two batteries from each other so that you can 'drain' the house battery without the risk of also draining the starter battery and not being able to restart the vehicle. The VSR also has a manual activation option so that you could use the house battery to 'jump start' the car if the starter battery went dead and the house battery wasn't. This is all standard functionality on any old motorhome (perhaps 'caravan' to you).

Here is one for $20, the one i own i bought for $16.
$20 VSR

So the lead-acid approach is simple. If you use a lithium battery such as Lifepo4, you will get much longer battery life (not that i think that's an issue here since powering a diesel heater is such 'light work'), but you also must go through a BIT more effort to charge it from the alternator. This is because a lifepo4 should 'regularly' be charged to a higher voltage than many alternators will consistently push to, such as >14v. Many alternator systems may only push the system to >14v for a short while after first starting and then taper off to the 13s. The lifepo4 'needs' >14v for long enough to become fully charged, because many of internal BMS (battery management systems) will not do 'balancing' between the cells of the battery unless it is held at full AND >14v (but less than 14.6) for longish periods, otherwise battery capacity can gradually degrade as the cells go out of balance. So this is why there is a need for a 'DC-DC charger' which boosts voltage to be more appropriate for the lithium battery. Fortunately a GOOD size DC-DC charger such as a 60amp model (which could fully charge a 100ah battery from empty to full in <2hrs) is only a bit over $100 on Amazon.

Here is a 60A for $134: Example
Here is a 20A for $65: Example

There are other ways to accomplish this as well depending on what other hardware you may have. For example, if you already have a 12v to 220v inverter you can also use an AC lithium battery charger which can be cheaper than buying a dedicated DC-DC. The main advantage of the DC-DC is it doesn't require any interaction because it would be 'hardwired' whereas the AC powered lithium charger might require you to remember to turn on the inverter, the charger, etc because it's a 'plug-in' type of situation.

The solar side of things i suspect you will use what you already have and since a diesel heater doesn't need a lot of energy, whatever you have is probably sufficient! All this alternator talk is just 'the backup plan'.

 

[Skypower]

Self powered diesel heater (mod)

 

[Skypower]

Several suggestions:
Safety. Test and qualify the heater while you’re awake under varying conditions before you trust it. Check it for loose fuel hoses or in bad placement. Install a carbon monoxide detector.
Efficiency; RV windows are terrible points of heat loss. Use cut to size mirrored bubble sheets in windows. If you must use electrical heat, nothings more efficient than an electric blanket. Forget oil radiators!

 

[SamDeleted]

@Gueyog8a7 looks like you're in a bit of a tricky situation,

What about a real fire ?

 

[SamDeleted]

This would keep you warm

Outbacker® 'Firebox' Tent Stove

New to the Outbacker tent stove range a lightweight, portable log burning tent stove (12kg) Glass window in door. Built in spark arrestor. 60mm stainless steel flue pipe.

outbackerstoves.co.uk

 

[Gueyog8a7]

What are your goals with solar, both quantitative and qualitative?

What do you feel you need to power using solar, and what do you want to power?

What were you doing for electricity before your attempt at solar power?

Why is a solar plan a “bust” at this point?

Fortunately after the heater has gotten past its initial glow plug stage, it only needs about 40w (for the 5Kw units) on high, less if you run it on medium most of the time. Solar is still pretty viable for that low a load as that's roughly 1000Wh for a whole day.

What does your battery bank look like? LFP or lead acid? How much solar do you have and is it through a PWM or MPPT controller? Yes, in winter it's much harder to feed those but I've been able to manage feeding my two at the camp on 400w of panel. A large enough battery will get you through multiple days and if you do have to run a generator or the like you can get a fast charge on them so you're not burning much fuel.

What are your thoughts on roof mounting panels? That keeps them off the ground and you always have them working whether driving or sitting. As with all winter planning the best thing you can do is get as much solar panel up there and wired in as you can practically fit and afford. Better to have panels sitting idle with full batteries in the summer than to be freezing in the winter.

Yes, I run a LOT of these heaters, I know WAY too much about them. ?

I don't see the solar situation as hopeless at all. I actually think you have a very simple situation as far as the power requirement. What i would do is simply buy one large-ish (100+ah) battery to power your heater, and then charge the battery with solar, AND the alternator as backup.

I already have and since a diesel heater doesn't need a lot of energy, whatever you have is probably sufficient! All this alternator talk is just 'the backup plan'.

Hi guys.

I say it is hopeless only because of the negative and disparaging comments on vanlife specific subs on reddit. Generally they are saying it is doomed. Maybe you guys have a more optimistic outlook!

So far I have no other electrics setup and no heating. It is a new van build which I started in summer. I did plan to later get very basic electronics but this came to the forefront as winter set in and I found on research that all common heating methods except fire stove (I despise smoke smell so not really considered this) will depend on some electronic connection.

It is not only about keeping myself warm. I have managed so far to -6c this last week as the lowest in my double sleeping bags. It is fine when in bed but getting out to pee is miserable! I could manage without if that was the only issue however the van has a serious damp problem so it is as much to keep the van warm and dry as it is me. Currently it is varying degrees of wet 24/7 which I have been told is very bad for the van.

I have got myself 2x 100w renogy flexible panels - i know much hated in serious solar panel circles but I was going for stealth. I have a lifepo4 fogstar drift 100ah battery and epever tracer 4215bn. Also bought the various other items such as dp isolator, fuses, fuse block battery cutoff. I had them out on ground deploy the other day as a first test and the mt50 was saying it was drawing 2-3w. I had no idea what that meant in terms of per second per hour or what?

My van is very small (ford transit connect) so it fits those 2 100w panels and could squeeze one more upfront but that would be it.

By the way can someone explain comments about getting more batteries to solve the problem? How will it help given that if I were unable to charge one battery then how would getting more, which I also would be unable to charge, be any solution? Seen it suggested more than once and do not understand the logic.

A lifepo4 is like having a couple of lead acids anyway isnt it given that you can charge the former down to even 100% but preferably 80% so they say giving you more usable power from 1 battery vs only 50% on the lead acids.

 

[Rednecktek]

I have got myself 2x renogy black division panels - i know much hated in serious solar panel circles but I was going for stealth.

What's the watts, Voc, Vmp, and Isc on those? As many people rag on Renogy, their panels have had almost no complaints and they're a damn sight better than many other brands out there. Some people say "Victron or Nothing!!" but I prefer to have a complete system running OK than just a single part running 5% better but nothing else for the same money.

Yes, solar in winter is a real PITA, especially in areas of the world like ours where summer is "those 3 days in August" so over sizing is an absolute must, but it's still completely do-able so don't give up hope.

The rule of thumb for panels and SCC is 10a of SCC per 100w of panel for a 12v battery. So if you have 500w of panel, you'll want about 50a of SCC to feed a 12v battery. With the lousy weather you have you're going to want to get as much panel as possible up there and as much battery capacity as possible. This is one place where building your own batteries is an advantage because you can build a 300Ah battery in the same physical footprint as your bog standard 100Ah LFP battery. When every square centimeter is vital, density really adds up quick.

As a round starting point, figure your diesel heater is going to need 1Kwh/day of power to operate. In reality it'll be less but rounding up is a good thing here.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

What's the watts, Voc, Vmp, and Isc on those? As many people rag on Renogy, their panels have had almost no complaints and they're a damn sight better than many other brands out there. Some people say "Victron or Nothing!!" but I prefer to have a complete system running OK than just a single part running 5% better but nothing else for the same money.

Yes, solar in winter is a real PITA, especially in areas of the world like ours where summer is "those 3 days in August" so over sizing is an absolute must, but it's still completely do-able so don't give up hope.

The rule of thumb for panels and SCC is 10a of SCC per 100w of panel for a 12v battery. So if you have 500w of panel, you'll want about 50a of SCC to feed a 12v battery. With the lousy weather you have you're going to want to get as much panel as possible up there and as much battery capacity as possible. This is one place where building your own batteries is an advantage because you can build a 300Ah battery in the same physical footprint as your bog standard 100Ah LFP battery. When every square centimeter is vital, density really adds up quick.

As a round starting point, figure your diesel heater is going to need 1Kwh/day of power to operate. In reality it'll be less but rounding up is a good thing here.

Thanks. Scroll down the page and see the tech details in the link I provided of the panels. Also can you answer how more batteries help? I made another reply asking this which I posted just before you posted I think so please read that rather than type it again.

I have tracer bn4215 so sounds like I will be ok there. I see that getting flexibles was probably a bad idea now hehe given that they are less efficient and have to maximize efficacy with the little space I have. I had so much other stuff to think about I really didnt bother to do calculations. I figured it would be easy given my low electric requirements but seems not.

 

[Rocketman]

Get the third panel up front. You will NEED every watt you can make in the winter. With 300w a 30amp charger will be fine Victron’s model is mppt 100/30 - there are other brands too. All your panels should be the same.

Van life is very challenging in the cold.

One of YOUR big challenges will be keeping your lithium battery above 32 degrees before you charge it. Do not charge it if the cells are below 32 degrees - it can be permanently ruined.

Make sure the battery has a low temperature charge protection.

One way to obtain low temperatures no solar charging is if your solar charge controller is Victron 100/30 and you have a Victron BMV712 or Smartshunt battery monitor with the optional temperature sensor. You can setup the Bluetooth VE.Network so the shunt and the mppt communicate and pass voltage, current and temperature data. Then the mppt has a user setable field - don’t charge below_____ temp.

Good Luck

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Get the third panel up front. You will NEED every watt you can make in the winter. With 300w a 30amp charger will be fine Victron’s model is mppt 100/30 - there are other brands too. All your panels should be the same.

Van life is very challenging in the cold.

One of YOUR big challenges will be keeping your lithium battery above 32 degrees before you charge it. Do not charge it if the cells are below 32 degrees - it can be permanently ruined.

Make sure the battery has a low temperature charge protection.

One way to obtain low temperatures no solar charging is if your solar charge controller is Victron 100/30 and you have a Victron BMV712 or Smartshunt battery monitor with the optional temperature sensor. You can setup the Bluetooth VE.Network so the shunt and the mppt communicate and pass voltage, current and temperature data. Then the mppt has a user setable field - don’t charge below_____ temp.

Good Luck

The battery does have low temp protection I know that.

I already bought the epever tracer bn 4215 based on will prowses shining review and agreeing with what he was saying about sturdy design. I am very happy with that.

 

[Rednecktek]

Yeah, I think we were both typing at the same time. ?

OK, so definitely get that 3rd panel on there as soon as you can, you'll want that extra wattage. That EPEver will be just fine, that's a well regarded SCC in the solar world.

As to the reason people recommend a larger battery is weather. If you use the rough numbers of 1Kwh for your heater, that's pretty much a whole bog standard 100a LFP battery each day, so you'll need to get enough sunlight on the panels to recharge that battery every day. What happens when it gets really overcast and rainy? Well, now you're not getting anything really useful out of the panels so you'll have to try again tomorrow. With just a single battery you'll be cold and in the dark waiting for that second day. Having more battery capacity will keep the heat and lights on that extra day or two until the sun comes out again or you fire up the van and recharge it from there. It just buys you time. If you had to run a generator or the van every day to charge a battery, you could just run it every 3 or 4 days instead, and if you drain 1000w in a day but can generate 600w then your battery will last much longer as well.

The diesel heaters recycle the air if you mount them right so getting the moisture out of the air will be a slow process, but the heat and ventilation will help dry things out. In some situations you can only mount them to draw in outside air which slows down the heating process and brings in moist air. I recommend you avoid that and mount it in a way that it can just re-circulate the air inside. This will also help cut down on the power and fuel requirements.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Yeah, I think we were both typing at the same time. ?

OK, so definitely get that 3rd panel on there as soon as you can, you'll want that extra wattage. That EPEver will be just fine, that's a well regarded SCC in the solar world.

As to the reason people recommend a larger battery is weather. If you use the rough numbers of 1Kwh for your heater, that's pretty much a whole bog standard 100a LFP battery each day, so you'll need to get enough sunlight on the panels to recharge that battery every day. What happens when it gets really overcast and rainy? Well, now you're not getting anything really useful out of the panels so you'll have to try again tomorrow. With just a single battery you'll be cold and in the dark waiting for that second day. Having more battery capacity will keep the heat and lights on that extra day or two until the sun comes out again or you fire up the van and recharge it from there. It just buys you time. If you had to run a generator or the van every day to charge a battery, you could just run it every 3 or 4 days instead, and if you drain 1000w in a day but can generate 600w then your battery will last much longer as well.

The diesel heaters recycle the air if you mount them right so getting the moisture out of the air will be a slow process, but the heat and ventilation will help dry things out. In some situations you can only mount them to draw in outside air which slows down the heating process and brings in moist air. I recommend you avoid that and mount it in a way that it can just re-circulate the air inside. This will also help cut down on the power and fuel requirements.

Thanks for the tips.

I actually have a reference to go by in terms of how well drying heat will be since I am staying on my mums driveway and so can run in the electrical heater whenever I want. Running that for an hour or so really does make a big difference. It doesnt dry everything, it still rains water from the roof! however much of the moisture from the walls and glass goes away.

I have bought a diesel hob/heater combo as I did the calculations and it works out about he same or better over time compared to dedicated heater and gas on board when considering gas installation costs and greater gas prices. I also like the idea of one fuel source since I figured diesel was going to be used for heating anyway might as well make it for cooking too. This will also remove one wet source as the cooking does kick up some moisture using gas but I know a lot of that is still the food itself. Still diesel cooking was an appealing option I went with.

I looked at the datasheet for it and it is pretty much identical from what I can tell to diesel heater consumption and heating efficiency.

I had not heard of the trick of keeping the intake air inside the vehicle. So that is better for efficiency? You could also make the claim though that taking from outside is also beneficial to reduce condensation since it would, provided it wasnt really humid outside, be taking less humid air outside to the inside, working similar to a fan and ventilation in that sense.

 

[Rednecktek]

I had not heard of the trick of keeping the intake air inside the vehicle. So that is better for efficiency? You could also make the claim though that taking from outside is also beneficial to reduce condensation since it would, provided it wasnt really humid outside, be taking less humid air outside to the inside, working similar to a fan and ventilation in that sense.

Well, if you recycle the inside air it requires less temperature differential which means you can run a lower setting which means less fuel. Drawing in outside air means it's starting with cold wet air and trying to get that hotter which requires more energy. You live in the UK, ALL your outside air is wet, just like mine. ?

 

[rodrick]

Well, if you recycle the inside air it requires less temperature differential which means you can run a lower setting which means less fuel. Drawing in outside air means it's starting with cold wet air and trying to get that hotter which requires more energy. You live in the UK, ALL your outside air is wet, just like mine. ?

we have a rumor going around on this side of the mountains that you folks all have webbed feet is that true?