IQ7+ & 390W Panels

[charlesrg]

@svetz thank you very much for sharing your solar install info.
I'm also in Florida, about 100 miles from you in Fort Lauderdale (Broward County).
I've New Canadian Solar 390W panels from a surplus dealer that will cost me $0.66 per watt. I'm looking to order a palett with 30 panels it will cost $7,722.00 plus freight.
Next I was going to order 30 Enphase IQ7Plus from Ebay at around $140 per each or a Fronius Primo 10Kw for about $3K.
I guess I will have to draw a diagram and apply for permits and then have my roof guy install the panels and an electrician to connect them and then call for an inspection. I'm thinking at the end I will have it all installed at around $15K. Quotes that I received for similar system are at around at around $30K. I know I won't have warranty but I'm expecting this things should not burn that often.
Would you recommend going this route ?

 

[svetz]

I'm also in Florida, about 100 miles from you in Fort Lauderdale (Broward County).
I've New Canadian Solar 390W panels from a surplus dealer that will cost me $0.66 per watt. I'm looking to order a palett with 30 panels it will cost $7,722.00 plus freight.

I'll be looking forward to hearing more about your system when you get it up and running!

Next I was going to order 30 Enphase IQ7Plus from Ebay at around $140 per each or a Fronius Primo 10Kw for about $3K.
I guess I will have to draw a diagram and apply for permits and then have my roof guy install the panels and an electrician to connect them and then call for an inspection. I'm thinking at the end I will have it all installed at around $15K. Quotes that I received for similar system are at around at around $30K. I know I won't have warranty but I'm expecting this things should not burn that often.

Would you recommend going this route ?

Not IQ7+ microinverters.
Enphase might say that they're compatible, but consider that they start clipping around 290W, so you'd be losing about 1/3rd of your power with 390W panels during peak times. The IQ8H-240-72-2-US might be better as it handles 380 watts, but it depends on the voltage range of your panels as to if it'll actually work (Enphase has different models for different voltage ranges so you can probably find something, they have a tool to help with that too). The IQ8s are also nice in that they give you "sunlight" backup (i.e., power when the grid is down without a battery) and have no fixed limits with a battery as the IQ7s do.

Normally I'm happy to extoll the virtues of microinverters as they are generally better IMO (see this post) than string inverters; but them's fighting words and a lot of people would (and have) argued every point extensively. ; -) A recent poster (@ncsolarelectric in What I Learned about DIY and Enphase) reported they couldn't activate the system without traveling to pass a final Enphase course which makes the company a lot less DIY-friendly than they used to be; that's pretty sad (See update below). Even if you have BFE issues as I did and microinverters are your only way out, you might still check other vendors that might be more DIY-friendly. For example, newbostonconst uses AP systems and reports they work well, but aren't as smooth in AC coupling.

Hope that helps. I'll ask the moderators to move your other post to this thread where it'll be more on-topic.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

Correction. In the end, I didn't need to travel after all. That was an old requirement from before the pandemic but I didn't know that. Instead, I had to submit a single-line diagram for design review. Which they sent back to me with corrections, and I resubmitted.

With Enphase, you MUST be Enphase certified to install their systems. It's not a matter of warranty anymore. Without certification, you can't activate the IQ8 inverters. The Installer's App won't let you proceed. If you're not installing sunlight backup or battery backup, then the Installer Certification and IQ8 Certification are fairly easy but time-consuming. If you are installing any form of backup system, there are 2 additional certifications that are required and a design review. The storage certification is, IMO, more difficult and confusing because the Empower switch and IQ Combiner have changed and the videos jump back and forth between the old and new versions. It was no fun, but I passed and I am now fully certified.

The Hoymiles microinverters would be a much lower cost solution, but as I've said elsewhere, nobody has tested them AC coupled to a microgrid yet. I'm ordering some this week to try this.

 

[svetz]

Correction. In the end, I didn't need to travel after all. That was an old requirement from before the pandemic but I didn't know that. Instead, I had to submit a single-line diagram for design review. Which they sent back to me with corrections, and I resubmitted.

That's good to know, thank you for the clarification.

With Enphase, you MUST be Enphase certified to install their systems.

Charles, you can find their classes online at https://university.enphaseenergy.com/login/index.php. The class material itself is pretty good, but the test questions are very often misleading and poorly worded, occasionally asking things that aren't even in the current course. As @ncsolarelectric says, the tests can be frustrating. But, when compared to the vendors that don't give you any information or very scant information they look like industry gods. For example, see @ghostwriter66's thread I'm DONE with MPP Solar

The Hoymiles microinverters ... nobody has tested them AC coupled to a microgrid yet. I'm ordering some this week to try this.

Hope you start a thread on that!

 

[Solar Guppy]

@svetz thank you very much for sharing your solar install info.
I'm also in Florida, about 100 miles from you in Fort Lauderdale (Broward County).
I've New Canadian Solar 390W panels from a surplus dealer that will cost me $0.66 per watt. I'm looking to order a palett with 30 panels it will cost $7,722.00 plus freight.
Next I was going to order 30 Enphase IQ7Plus from Ebay at around $140 per each or a Fronius Primo 10Kw for about $3K.
I guess I will have to draw a diagram and apply for permits and then have my roof guy install the panels and an electrician to connect them and then call for an inspection. I'm thinking at the end I will have it all installed at around $15K. Quotes that I received for similar system are at around at around $30K. I know I won't have warranty but I'm expecting this things should not burn that often.
Would you recommend going this route ?

Have a read

One can do it yourself, but it is more than "draw a diagram", you have to meet NEC2017 ( possibly NEC2020 ) as Florida was to move to the later in July.

From cost perspective, nothing beats simple string inverters.

My 11kw system was about 9K all in for panels, racking and inverters, all to NEC2017 codes in 2020 using a pair if Solis 5G inverters

On the panels, I got mine from Santan, they have new 410S for 46 cents / watt, racking, use ironridge as they are listed for our wind codes.

 

[GXMnow]

30 x 390 watt panels and 30 iQ7+ inverters is a lot of power. What is your main panel and your main breaker size? With that much solar, you are looking at a 45 or 50 amp back feed breaker. If you have a 200 amps panel, that would mean going to a 190 amp or smaller main breaker to stay within the 120% rule.

Have you checked with your local utility about what rate plan they will put you on with net metering? I had a tiered plan with a cheap rate for the first 500 KWH a month, but that went away with the solar install. We were forced onto a "Time of Use" plan where they cheap rate is when the sun is up, and then you get hit with a higher rate in the evening as the sun goes down. So I didn't save quite as much as I was expecting to.

I ended up hiring a local company to deal with all my paperwork and do the install. They even did some minor roof repair as part of the install. Their quote for the equipment was decent, but not great, but with it all bundled, it was not too bad. My bottom line was $17,000 US for all the gear, paperwork, permits, install labor etc. But my system is half the size. I only have 16 x 300 watt panels and the lower rated iQ7 inverters, but all the gear was also new will full 25 year warranty, labor covered for 10 years. I also got the full 30% tax credit back then, it is at 26% now. I don't know if you can claim the tax credit on used/surplus panels. In my small city, the permits alone ended up close to $1,000 USD.

The cost for the equipment sounds ok, but for that price on the iQ7+ inverters, will they even swap out a bad one, or is that at your own risk, no warranty at all? For the panels I want to add onto my system, I found an Ebay seller with the iQ7 (non plus) for just $50 each, but they were listed "As Is, for parts" which makes me a bit nervous about buying them. I only need like 6 of them, and the case of 10 was $500. What are the odds that 6 of them work? The skeptic in me thinks they are all the ones pulled and replaced due to failure. I would hope the ones for $140 have a better shot at working. You can find some cheaper solar panels, but $0.66 per watt is not bad.

 

[Hedges]

If you would ever want to add battery backup, make sure your PV inverters do the frequency-watts feature of UL-1741-SA.
That way, you're not captive to same vendor's proprietary batteries. You can AC couple to one of several battery inverters which do frequency-shift to control PV power production.

I use string inverters, not microinverters, in my system. I recommend this approach, but you probably need RSD box per panel to meet code.

 

[svetz]

If you would ever want to add battery backup, make sure your PV inverters do the frequency-watts feature of UL-1741-SA.

UL-1741-SA is a requirement in some states, it allows utilities to throttle back power from DERs (grid-tied energy suppliers like solar homeowners) so they don't push too much power into the grid. Nearly all manufacturers (including Enphase) for the U.S. market have it built into their systems.

But, just because an inverter supports 1741 doesn't mean it'll be able to support a battery backup for Enphase. Enphase has its own solution (i.e., Enlighten), but a number of other vendors support an AC Coupled approach which may or may not use 1741. The main advantage to being able to throttle back inverters (rather than shut them off), means during sunlit hours you have solar and battery power available together.

... you probably need RSD box per panel to meet code....

NEC 2017 (currently active in Florida) requires RSD for roof-mounted systems; Enphase has them built-in, with string inverters it's an add-on.

...From cost perspective, nothing beats simple string inverters....

Enphase is top-of-the-line equipment and has a price tag to match, so compared to cheap inverters you're correct. But, there are cheap microinverters too, and they still confer a lot of advantages.

What is your main panel and your main breaker size? With that much solar, you are looking at a 45 or 50 amp back feed breaker. If you have a 200 amps panel, that would mean going to a 190 amp or smaller main breaker to stay within the 120% rule.

The 120% rule doesn't apply if you do a "line side tap" between the meter and panel (it's how I'm setup). I would emphasize this is not something that's DIY unless you happen to be an actual electrician or have a cutoff as I did.

Have you checked with your local utility about what rate plan they will put you on with net metering?

Florida law requires utilities to pay 1-to-1 currently, it's similar to but not quite as good as the first CA net metering agreement from what I understand. It's always under attack and this year a bill (HB 741) was passed to do away with it. Every Republican voted for it, every democrat against it. Fortunately, the governor (a republican) vetoed it. It was passed under the auspice of the harm it was causing the poor, but there was no actual proof or study - just what the oil/utilities were saying. There was however plenty of proof that it would have gutted the solar industry wasting the millions of tax payer dollars spent building the industry up.

For everyone going, but oh...the reason CA amended its net metering was because it wasn't fair for DERs to get a free ride on line maintenance. Fear not, Florida utilities have split the bill up and we pay for that, the net-metering 1-to-1 is only on the Energy portion as I understand it. Even if I have a net zero for the month, I'm still paying around $60 in the myriad of non-energy charges.

but for that price on the iQ7+ inverters,

IQ7s are a really bad choice for their panels anyway because of the excessive clipping.

 

[Hedges]

UL-1741-SA ...

But, just because an inverter supports 1741 doesn't mean it'll be able to support a battery backup for Enphase. Enphase has its own solution (i.e., Enlighten), but a number of other vendors support an AC Coupled approach which may or may not use 1741.

The older UL-1741 wouldn't support AC coupling (or at least not reducing AC output on request by frequency shift.)

If an inverter, Enphase or other, supports UL-1741-SA and has frequency-watts enabled, it should AC couple with and reduce output when requested by inverters such as Sunny Island, Outback Skybox (and some newer model?), Schneider (some models), SolArk, others.

Sure, Enphase Enlighten may work with with some models of Enphase microinverters. My recommendation was to get a GT PV inverter which works with any battery inverter that supports AC coupling with frequency shift. The Enphase battery systems are relatively expensive. Battery inverters that support AC coupling aren't cheap either, but many work with a wide variety of 48V batteries that are competitively priced. That could be the best value, especially if installing a large battery kWh capacity (in comparison to inverter kW output.)

The Alt E Store link Svetz provided indicates some of those battery inverters simply disconnect the GT PV inverters. Some manufacturers (including my favorite SMA) say theirs are compatible even with GT PV inverters that don't do frequency-watts. But you don't want that, would be constantly disconnecting, cycling battery up and down perhaps every 5 minutes.

Properly operating frequency-watts is very nice. When grid is down and PV production exceeds consumption, mine hovers somewhere between 61 Hz and 62 Hz, with GT PV inverters delivering exactly what is consumed by loads plus battery charging. In the case of UL-1741-SA, that happy operating point would be found between 60.5 Hz and 62.0 Hz.

Selecting an Enphase microinverter that works with either Enphase battery inverter or other AC coupled battery inverters would allow the most choices.

The 120% rule doesn't apply if you do a "line side tap" between the meter and panel (it's how I'm setup). I would emphasize this is not something that's DIY unless you happen to be an actual electrician or have a cutoff as I did.

In my area (San Jose), Line Side Tap is available with an adapter under the meter socket, with a 40A limit.
I'm not sure if actual line taps, sometimes implemented with insulation piercing connector, is allowed to go higher.

I would expect utility to have a concern if their wires were sized for a 100A or 200A service and a second box was connected in parallel with additional breaker, so current draw could be significantly higher (if loads installed.)

In my case I had a main disconnect after the meter, and separate breaker panel, so was able to tap between them. All branches protected by fuses/breakers so no problem.

In the comments below Svetz' "line side tap" link is a replacement breaker panel supporting 200A main and 100A PV breaker. If I was the utility I would allow that only wire utility drop wires having 300A ampacity, not just 200A:

https://www.cedgreentech.com/sites/default/files/support_comment/files/SIE_CS_MC2442S1200FC.pdf

It's always under attack and this year a bill (HB 741) was passed to do away with it. ... It was passed under the auspice of the harm it was causing the poor, but there was no actual proof or study - just what the oil/utilities were saying.

 

[charlesrg]

I want to start with a big thanks to @svetz , @Hedges , @Solar Guppy , @ncsolarelectric , really appreciate you guys helping me here.
It took me a while to reply as I was digesting all the good info you guys shared.
I'm going to share the info I find here so it can be used for others in the future. This project is in Deerfield Beach, FL, but might be very similar to others.

So far I'm planning for no battery backup. Since FPL provides annual Net Metering and the goal is to have a (near) zero electric bill. So Enphase IQ7Plus seems to reasonable given it's price is much lower.
The cost of IQ8 plus with the extra equipment it requires for battery connection goes beyond the cost of a small generator or an offline battery bank to keep a refrigerator going during an extended outage. Based on history I expect that an extended outage (more than 36 hours) will occur every 15 years , so I could just buy a generator and leave it on the original box until such event happens and use the rest of the money to rent an airbnb far away for 1 week if I sense power will take a while to be restored.


By looking at this panphlet and Youtube channel videos Looks like the county (Broward) had a Solar program where all permits could be done online and they had permit template samples, however looks like the system has been deactivated. I'm trying to find a 10KW enphase design package that I could use.

I Found a city permit checklist. So it looks like I need to get a set of plans signed and sealed by a Designer with an uppercase D.
Special Inspector forms for tie downs, not sure what this is yet.
Product approvals (NOAs) I guess are UL certification of the equipment I will use.
The other items seem to be standard city paperwork. I'm going to try to have no GA and hire the roof and electrical contractors directly, hope I can find reasonable prices.



Initial cost , vs warranty
FPL anual net metering
possible electrical car in the future and more panels (modularity of enphase)
fear of hoymiles not surviving 20 years.
30 panels at around 10KW does not seem excessive giving the current usage of 1100KW/month and the goal to have a bill with only minimal connection.
FPL requires a 1 Million dollar liability insurance policy (~$14/month) if I go over 10Kw. However they calculate the AC output based on 0.85 of the DC output. So IQ7Pls nominal output is 210W that would be 6.3KW under the 10Kw for 30 panels. Or 390W Panels * 30 * 0.85 = 9945Watts. Right at the edge mark.

Questions:
Enphase - Are you guys stating that I cannot use the Enphase Cloud if I don't take a course or get a person who took the course to certify my install ?
If I can still use the local network to query the equipment API/REST I'm fine with that. As long as the system will operate normally I can use a raspberry pi or similar to query the APIs and build my own energy dashboards, I saw someone doing something similar here. Honestly I'm not a fan of having my system directly connected to their cloud anyway.

FPL states: System should not exceed 90% of distribution service rating. I'm guessing 90% of my 150A breaker. So 120V * 150A * .90 = 16200Watts max, it's less than my expected 9945Watts output

Florida FPL Limitations:
Requires liability insurance if over 10KW output based on DC output X 0.85 around extra $14/month.
Tier1 max 10Kw.

Not IQ7+ microinverters.

I'm going to calculate the cost/return. If I can get 50% of another panel with an IQ7+ for the cost of the IQ8+ upgrade I will just go with IQ7+ from what I see the clipping will occur at peak sun and I can still benefit from

AP systems

I added that on my list to check. The cost seems to be reasonable however standard warranty is 10 years while Enphase is 25 years.
From what I read, MPPTs systems have capacitors that according to the manufacturer datasheet would not survive over over 10 years of use in a high temperature environment. So 25 years warranty is a big commitment. Manufacturers usually don't offer such a long warranty if they don't trust their system will survive the warranty period.

Hope that helps. I'll ask the moderators to move your other post to this thread where it'll be more on-topic.

Thank you.

Without certification, you can't activate the IQ8 inverters

Does that means they are just bricks or would still operate without talking to their cloud ?

Charles, you can find their classes online

I hope I can just find someone certified to activate them if its a requirement. I will still have to get an electrician and plans approved. Worst cast I hope I can use that to show them the system is legit.

Hoymiles microinverters

Not being paranoid, but Hoymiles seems to be a chinese firm. China is a non-nato country. This devices are usually calling home over the internet. Therefore in case of a conflict I might expect my power to go down at Chinese government decision. Further the price does not justify as AP systems and Enphase prices are equivalent. Yes , iPhones are built in China I know there are great stuff comming from there, but I'm skeptic given I didn't see a real advantage to compensate the risk here.

Have a read

Thank you. I will look into IronRidge products and check on SolarDesignTool and Green Lancer for permitting. It looks like it would be the easiest and most affordable way. That is very valuable info.

Enphase is top-of-the-line equipment and has a price tag to match, so compared to cheap inverters you're correct. But, there are cheap microinverters too, and they still confer a lot of advantages.

At less than $0.5 per watt (nominal output) and warranty of at least 10 years ?

30 x 390 watt panels and 30 iQ7+ inverters is a lot of power. What is your main panel and your main breaker size? With that much solar, you are looking at a 45 or 50 amp back feed breaker. If you have a 200 amps panel, that would mean going to a 190 amp or smaller main breaker to stay within the 120% rule.

Breaker outside is 150Amps

Fortunately, the governor (a republican) vetoed it.

I guess he might be running for president , I will add this to my list for next election voting decision.

For everyone going, but oh...the reason CA amended its net metering was because it wasn't fair for DERs to get a free ride on line maintenance. Fear not, Florida utilities have split the bill up and we pay for that, the net-metering 1-to-1 is only on the Energy portion as I understand it. Even if I have a net zero for the month, I'm still paying around $60 in the myriad of non-energy charges.

Is that FPL ? Did you received any credit yet ? I'm wondering if your annual surplus credit could cover the $60 monthly.

The cost for the equipment sounds ok, but for that price on the iQ7+ inverters, will they even swap out a bad one, or is that at your own risk, no warranty at all? For the panels I want to add onto my system, I found an Ebay seller with the iQ7 (non plus) for just $50 each, but they were listed "As Is, for parts" which makes me a bit nervous about buying them. I only need like 6 of them, and the case of 10 was $500. What are the odds that 6 of them work? The skeptic in me thinks they are all the ones pulled and replaced due to failure. I would hope the ones for $140 have a better shot at working. You can find some cheaper solar panels, but $0.66 per watt is not bad.

It's ebay, so I'm expecting to exchanges. In my viewpoint this things will either burn on the first month or operate fine for their expected lifetime of warranty + 1 month.
@svetz @GXMnow do you guys have over 5%/day clipping on your install ? (Reference: @GXMnow is on 300W/IQ7. @svetz is on 340W/IQ7+)

@Hedges for the moment I will not consider batteries. If I get a Cybertruck or an Electric F150 I heard they could provide me emergency backup, so I will wait for that. Worst case I would have to turn off the utility breaker and solar output to use the vehicle battery.

Once I gather more details I will organize a post with the steps or shorter version of this topic.

 

[Hedges]

FPL states: System should not exceed 90% of distribution service rating. I'm guessing 90% of my 150A breaker. So 120V * 150A * .90 = 16200Watts max, it's less than my expected 9945Watts output

Look up 120% rule.
That will likely limit the PV breaker size you are allowed to install in an existing panel.
A few ways to work around that.

 

[Hedges]

FPL states: System should not exceed 90% of distribution service rating. I'm guessing 90% of my 150A breaker. So 120V * 150A * .90 = 16200Watts max, it's less than my expected 9945Watts output

Look up 120% rule.
That will likely limit the PV breaker size you are allowed to install in an existing panel.
A few ways to work around that.

 

[fromport]

Questions:
Enphase - Are you guys stating that I cannot use the Enphase Cloud if I don't take a course or get a person who took the course to certify my install ?
If I can still use the local network to query the equipment API/REST I'm fine with that. As long as the system will operate normally I can use a raspberry pi or similar to query the APIs and build my own energy dashboards, I saw someone doing something similar here. Honestly I'm not a fan of having my system directly connected to their cloud anyway.

Just got this July Enphase newsletter today:

Use this guide to identify the training you need to design, sell, and install Enphase systems:

https://cloud.email.enphase.com/training-guide

So as long as you stay "grid tied only" no problems.
With IQ8 you will need to provision grid setup so you will need an IQ gateway/formerly known as Envoy

They also just updates the software so you can locally poll info from it:

"New IQ Gateway software release and release notes.
For homeowners who want to create custom home automation systems, we’ve released new IQ Gateway software to support this in a secure way with tokens. Read more in our recent release notes or check out this tech brief for details."

Tech brief pdf:

https://enphase.com/download/iq-gateway-access-using-token-tech-brief

From what I read, MPPTs systems have capacitors that according to the manufacturer datasheet would not survive over over 10 years of use in a high temperature environment. So 25 years warranty is a big commitment. Manufacturers usually don't offer such a long warranty if they don't trust their system will survive the warranty period.

This is an (old) article about Enphase capacitors:

https://www.edn.com/solar-micro-inverter-addresses-capacitor-reliability-issues/

And this is a 2011 reliability study:

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/EnphaseElectrolyticCapacitorLife.pdf

 

[Go4solar]

30 x 390 watt panels and 30 iQ7+ inverters is a lot of power. What is your main panel and your main breaker size? With that much solar, you are looking at a 45 or 50 amp back feed breaker. If you have a 200 amps panel, that would mean going to a 190 amp or smaller main breaker to stay within the 120% rule.

Have you checked with your local utility about what rate plan they will put you on with net metering? I had a tiered plan with a cheap rate for the first 500 KWH a month, but that went away with the solar install. We were forced onto a "Time of Use" plan where they cheap rate is when the sun is up, and then you get hit with a higher rate in the evening as the sun goes down. So I didn't save quite as much as I was expecting to.

I ended up hiring a local company to deal with all my paperwork and do the install. They even did some minor roof repair as part of the install. Their quote for the equipment was decent, but not great, but with it all bundled, it was not too bad. My bottom line was $17,000 US for all the gear, paperwork, permits, install labor etc. But my system is half the size. I only have 16 x 300 watt panels and the lower rated iQ7 inverters, but all the gear was also new will full 25 year warranty, labor covered for 10 years. I also got the full 30% tax credit back then, it is at 26% now. I don't know if you can claim the tax credit on used/surplus panels. In my small city, the permits alone ended up close to $1,000 USD.

The cost for the equipment sounds ok, but for that price on the iQ7+ inverters, will they even swap out a bad one, or is that at your own risk, no warranty at all? For the panels I want to add onto my system, I found an Ebay seller with the iQ7 (non plus) for just $50 each, but they were listed "As Is, for parts" which makes me a bit nervous about buying them. I only need like 6 of them, and the case of 10 was $500. What are the odds that 6 of them work? The skeptic in me thinks they are all the ones pulled and replaced due to failure. I would hope the ones for $140 have a better shot at working. You can find some cheaper solar panels, but $0.66 per watt is not bad.

Hi. I'm looking to have something similar, possibly ground mount. I'm in Maryland. Any tips on how I can get someone to do the install? Thanks.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I want to start with a big thanks to @svetz , @Hedges , @Solar Guppy , @ncsolarelectric , really appreciate you guys helping me here.
It took me a while to reply as I was digesting all the good info you guys shared.
I'm going to share the info I find here so it can be used for others in the future. This project is in Deerfield Beach, FL, but might be very similar to others.

...


Not being paranoid, but Hoymiles seems to be a chinese firm. China is a non-nato country. This devices are usually calling home over the internet. Therefore in case of a conflict I might expect my power to go down at Chinese government decision. Further the price does not justify as AP systems and Enphase prices are equivalent. Yes , iPhones are built in China I know there are great stuff comming from there, but I'm skeptic given I didn't see a real advantage to compensate the risk here.


Thank you. I will look into IronRidge products and check on SolarDesignTool and Green Lancer for permitting. It looks like it would be the easiest and most affordable way. That is very valuable info.


... <snip>

I'm glad I could help. Just a few things to note.
1. With Enphase, if you do not connect to their cloud, you do not have a warranty. Being connected to their cloud is a requirement of the 25-year warranty. Which has been pointed out on this forum many times. They know if you're connected or not and they can deactivate your inverters if they choose to. I can't say that I've heard of this happening but it is not beyond their capabilities.
2. I only have experience with the IQ8Plus inverters but the Installer App would not allow me to proceed to provision and "activate" the inverters until I was certified. There is no way around it. (I tried.) You either take the training and pass or hire an installer. I can't speak for the IQ7, some people here say they work without the cloud. I have not tried them, but the warranty is the same. There is no warranty if you're not on their cloud.
3. Hoymiles also has a 25-year warranty, the pricing for the single is the same as an IQ7 but has 349W of output power compared to 290W, and the pricing for the quad inverter is less than half per solar panel. At that savings, you can afford to buy a couple of spares and still pay less than Enphase.
4. Hoymiles does not require you to be connected to their cloud. The DTU is optional. The inverters are plug-n-play. You connect 240V and they turn on. I placed my own order this morning for a Quad 1500, a Dual 700, two Single 350s, DTU, and the cables. They should be arriving next week but I need to get utility approvals before I can connect them.

 

[fromport]

1. With Enphase, if you do not connect to their cloud, you do not have a warranty. Being connected to their cloud is a requirement of the 25-year warranty. Which has been pointed out on this forum many times. They know if you're connected or not and they can deactivate your inverters if they choose to. I can't say that I've heard of this happening but it is not beyond their capabilities.

I have not heard of one case where this was enforced.
In fact, I have provided many (M series) inverters to places where was no internet.
A few of them got a red LED and I was asked to check them out.
I contacted Enphase, asked permission to temp hook them to my envoy so I could run diagnostic.
Got the permission and it turned out the internal main fuse was blown.
Enphase send me replacement units under warranty.

2. I only have experience with the IQ8Plus inverters but the Installer App would not allow me to proceed to provision and "activate" the inverters until I was certified. There is no way around it. (I tried.) You either take the training and pass or hire an installer. I can't speak for the IQ7, some people here say they work without the cloud. I have not tried them, but the warranty is the same. There is no warranty if you're not on their cloud.\

See above.
They _could_ enforce that, but afaik they never have.
I have a customer with an envoy where mice/rats keep eating the ethernet cable. He is without monitoring for 2 years.
I asked about this at my 1 day training for the IQ8 & storage to the instructor if that would be a problem in the future and his answer "not that I can think of"

4. Hoymiles does not require you to be connected to their cloud. The DTU is optional. The inverters are plug-n-play. You connect 240V and they turn on. I placed my own order this morning for a Quad 1500, a Dual 700, two Single 350s, DTU, and the cables. They should be arriving next week but I need to get utility approvals before I can connect them.

This was discussed earlier:
In california for any system that gets provisioned, you have to supply proof that the settings of the inverter(s) are set to rule21.
And the only way to do that is at least hook up a (portable) DTU once while provisioning and take a photo/screenshot.

 

[charlesrg]

I placed my own order this morning for a Quad 1500, a Dual 700, two Single 350s, DTU, and the cables.

I'm trying to get pricing on them but haven't found online sales. Do you know if they support an API/REST to get the system status even without their cloud ? Do you pay extra for 25 year warranty ? On their docs they state 10 year default and 25 year option.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I have not heard of one case where this was enforced.
In fact, I have provided many (M series) inverters to places where was no internet.
A few of them got a red LED and I was asked to check them out.
I contacted Enphase, asked permission to temp hook them to my envoy so I could run diagnostic.
Got the permission and it turned out the internal main fuse was blown.
Enphase send me replacement units under warranty.


See above.
They _could_ enforce that, but afaik they never have.
I have a customer with an envoy where mice/rats keep eating the ethernet cable. He is without monitoring for 2 years.
I asked about this at my 1 day training for the IQ8 & storage to the instructor if that would be a problem in the future and his answer "not that I can think of"


This was discussed earlier:
In california for any system that gets provisioned, you have to supply proof that the settings of the inverter(s) are set to rule21.
And the only way to do that is at least hook up a (portable) DTU once while provisioning and take a photo/screenshot.

All of the Cinemark theaters in So Cal have Enphase inverters. When there are thousands of them installed, they fight tooth and nail against sending out replacements. Maybe it's not like that for residential systems, but for commercial systems getting a free replacement I'm told is not easy.

The OP is not in CA. There's no rule 21 in FL.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I'm trying to get pricing on them but haven't found online sales. Do you know if they support an API/REST to get the system status even without their cloud ? Do you pay extra for 25 year warranty ? On their docs they state 10 year default and 25 year option.

I'll ask about the API/REST. I do not know. They have a homeowner's App and a professional's app for monitoring multiple systems. No, a 25-year warranty is standard in North America. It's different in Asia and Europe.

 

[charlesrg]

Look up 120% rule.
That will likely limit the PV breaker size you are allowed to install in an existing panel.
A few ways to work around that.

It seems that a "line side tap" would be the solution to resolve this. I don't see disadvantages on this when not using a battery system.