New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[copec]

Here’s how one can generally tell if somthing will soon be regulated by someone or somthing …..
If you enjoy it , do it often, can make a buck off of it , more and more people are starting to do it , they may be some fun/ risk to it, it makes you less dependent on the system , it cuts in on the big guys dollars or power, a local, state or federal entity feel you will pay them money to continue doing it. It will be a huge activity soon in the future..and etc…etc…etc…
I could go on but its clear where we’re going with anything renewable that you personally can do.

jus my opinion, J.

I totally agree, but I still like to know the details. Between the building code, NFPA, and UL standards there is definitely a big mess going on - between people who want to be controlling because they believe everybody else doesn't know better, to protect them from themselves, to people (corporations) who are using it as a barrier of entry to protect a market... However, caught in the middle is generally a carefully thought out and researched set of regulations that I try to understand the reason for each one when considering my own systems.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

caught in the middle is generally a carefully thought out and researched set of regulations that I try to understand the reason for each one when considering my own systems.

I’m not against the code per se.

The way it is administrated, however, provides power to desk jockey bureaucrats who then wield it with vengeance for their own powerlessness or it gets used politically to lever a company or industry, or to suppress competitors to a favored-nation-status contractor or brand.

Architects do this continually. While that’s morally challenged in some aspects, it gets dirty when those employed in the public sector create a better environment for one enterprise but not another.
And then there’s the bribes or ‘favors’ that hearken to the mafia days in big eastern cities.

 

[timselectric]

Completely agree.
Code is a good thing. Enforcement is a joke.

 

[Shimmy]

I totally agree, but I still like to know the details. Between the building code, NFPA, and UL standards there is definitely a big mess going on - between people who want to be controlling because they believe everybody else doesn't know better, to protect them from themselves, to people (corporations) who are using it as a barrier of entry to protect a market...

NEC:
If you have it on a trailer that is "portable," located not less than 5' from the building, and cord-and-plug connect it to the building then the trailer itself is not covered by the NEC. (This would be similar to a portable generator on a trailer hooked up to a building.) All that is required is proper overcurrent protection on the feeder between the two.

Other NFPA Standards:
Generally other NFPA standards apply only when adopted by the local codes. They can be a handy reference though for specific areas even when they are not adopted. They may also be "referenced" by other codes which does not give them force of law, but the inspector can use them to help determine if something is compliant or not.

Utility:
If your source of power is not paralleled with the utility (capable of backfeeding the grid) then the utility has no jurisdiction.

Building Codes:
Building codes do not have scope over portable equipment.

Fire Codes:
Full authority on your property generally speaking as it relates to fire safety.

Planning/Zoning:
Varies by location, but they can define what is "portable" in some contexts (like a car on blocks in the front yard for a month), where you can park a trailer, how big it can be, etc. In some locations they can require you to have electrical utility service.

UL:
Generally speaking for this type of case, UL is more of a permissive approach than a restrictive one-- Having a UL label means you don't need to worry about the other codes dictating requirements for your installation, within its scope. You can actually have a UL inspection done on a "novel" system, get it a letter, and tell the inspector to go away. But, you pay a lot of money for the privilege.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Two quick questions. Am I correct that these UL requirements have been implemented only as of the NEC 2020? Thus, a DIY battery pack with lithium would be possible under the NEC 2017 and earlier?

 

[Cyanlite]

Two quick questions. Am I correct that these UL requirements have been implemented only as of the NEC 2020? Thus, a DIY battery pack with lithium would be possible under the NEC 2017 and earlier?

NEC2014+ requires UL listing on "energy storage systems" (batteries). But every AHJ is different. Some know that it's actually quite hard to put together a DIY UL-listed system, so they can be lenient. Some, like my AHJ, want everything to be UL listed including junction boxes and combiner boxes, batteries, everything.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Two quick questions. Am I correct that these UL requirements have been implemented only as of the NEC 2020? Thus, a DIY battery pack with lithium would be possible under the NEC 2017 and earlier?

Florida is in process for NEC2020 by the end of this year.

DYI batteries are not UL listed, so that would never pass a permitted installation, as everything needs to be listed components. UL9540 extends that to being certified as a battery <-> inverter pairing.

There is a lot of positives with UL9540, inverters / batteries listed will just work. They are worth every penny they cost, trying to be one's own manufacture is going to end poorly for most over the long term.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Thank you both for the quick responses and information. Appreciated.

 

[copec]

Two quick questions. Am I correct that these UL requirements have been implemented only as of the NEC 2020? Thus, a DIY battery pack with lithium would be possible under the NEC 2017 and earlier?

NEC 2017 requires all components to be listed except for Lead-Acid batteries. There is overlap with building code requirements by version as well.

 

[Ampster]

The important answer is with your local AHJ and what they have adopted. Some make modifications. With fifty states and hundreds of cities and counties it would be difficult to get the answer about your local codes on this forum.

 

[Solar Guppy]

I beleive I know sub3marathonman from work long ago, i'll be direct, just get a BYD Battery Box and a inverter that is UL9540 listed for it.

I'm using the Solis 5G HVES with a BYD Battery BOX 10.0. There are other options, If you have the XW, there are listed batteries for that as well.

 

[Danke]

But it is probably ok to park a Tesla in your attached garage…

 

[copec]

But it is probably ok to park a Tesla in your attached garage…

Also, 25 gallons of fuel in approved storage containers. Fuel doesn’t thermal runaway like batteries if heated in a fire.

 

[timselectric]

Pass your inspection with junk yard lead acid and then do whatever you want after.
Sticking it to the man. lol

 

[JRH]

Sorta on this topic , can anyone tell me why the nec doesn’t require less than a 50 volt system to have a grounding set up with grounding electrodes but over 50 they do… I may be phrasing that wrong but you get my drift.. what’s so bad about 80 volts that that isnt bad about 48 volts..
im baffled about reading this.?
Jim

 

[TRW]

It will be interesting to see what others say, my take on it is that it is an arbitrary number they picked, and it is up for further discussion when they get around to it.

 

[JRH]

It will be interesting to see what others say, my take on it is that it is an arbitrary number they picked, and it is up for further discussion when they get around to it.

You may be right, but I suspect it’s more than that … I know they want to make it tough on DIY people as they can’t make money on a bunch of mavericks out here doing their thing.
that why I’m building mine hopefully to fall outside of the realm of people with white hats and clipboards ,who want to get in my business…
we will see .. someone will explain it at some point… lota smart cats on this channel…

 

[Ampster]

Fuel doesn’t thermal runaway like batteries if heated in a fire.

Yes it needs a source of oxygen unlike thermal runaway Lithium cells that provide their own oxygen. However atomize gasoline or even kerosene in the right environment and it can kick ass.

 

[Ampster]

But it is probably ok to park a Tesla in your attached garage…

Probably because there are more vehicle fires per mile driven with internal combustion engine driven vehicles. I don't know about garage fires but Tesla does seem to get in the news if one of them does have an issue. Probably reason number 35 why you won't be getting an EV soon. I have been parking my EVs in the garage without issue for ten years.

 

[JRH]

Yes it needs a source of oxygen unlike thermal runaway Lithium cells that provide their own oxygen. However atomize gasoline or even kerosene in the right environment and it can kick ass.

Haaa kick ass is an understatement . On my 12 live aboard boat years I have seen several boats totaly blown to smitherens by a gas leak.always AFTER they left the fuel dock .
it always amazed me it never happened at the fuel dock but after they left…about the same distance ,too.
in a coast gaurd class for safety they explained that happens because gas won’t explode if the air / fuel mix is not correct… to much gas to air , no explosion, too little gas to air , no explosion… but if I remember correctly ( it’s been 40 years) at about 14 / 15 % mix .. big explosion.

when fueling with a leak in the gas system it would be to rich at first , but when they turned on the bilge blowers it started lessening the mix as it brought fresh air into the boats engine room.
as the mix went down from high to a
lower ratio it hit the right mix about 1/4 mile off of the marina and BOOM..
One cup of vaporized gas has the power of many sticks of dynamite when it ignites.
yes it is kick ass… not the fire , the vapor is just a total bomb going off…
the fire is totally secondary if there much left floating to burn.
there is never any first hand accounts or tale to tell, except from those who saw it from the marina.