New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[Nobodybusiness]

Some states faster than others....
View attachment 30193

Regardless of what the map says.
Local inspector here have zero Idea about solar and often throw NEC to the wind with their own “code”.
It’s a racket. They use it to punish people they don’t like and extract money from people.

That’s why most of us just had Transfer switch “permitted” then do the solar as a “backup” instead of a generator.

Government has got their fingers in everything to keep you from being independent.

They can’t control you if you don’t need them.

 

[Supervstech]

That's it.
I'm never going to walk out my door, again.
I feel safer, already. lol

Well… meteorites crash into peoples homes frequently… maybe it’s not safe there either?

 

[timselectric]

Well… meteorites crash into peoples homes frequently… maybe it’s not safe there either?

Airplanes too.
Dammit, there's no way to be safe.

 

[RandyP]

Yes it needs a source of oxygen unlike thermal runaway Lithium cells that provide their own oxygen. However atomize gasoline or even kerosene in the right environment and it can kick ass.

Yea, try boiling some gasoline in an open container over an open flame. Devastating. A Sobee bomb trick in a campfire demonstrates this.

 

[A.Justice]

1 gallon of gas, in the right conditions, contains more explosive force than 40 lbs of dynamite (about 80 sticks). I read somewhere that the U.S army believes that if one of those tractor-trailer (14k+ gal) sized tanks were to be vaporized and exploded, it would be equivalent to a medium sized nuclear bomb. I would love to have seen that testing!

The world is an incredibly dangerous place, there's something that could kill, or wants to kill you at every turn. At what point do people stop living because they are so afraid of dying? They love life so much they stop living in fear of the loss.

 

[Supervstech]

yes… the energy density of everyday fuels is immense…

 

[eXodus]

Once Upon a time a licensed electrician could install a Solar System without any engineering drawing, UL-Listens, plans or anything. Just with the manual from the manufacturer of the system

A solar install took less then a day and only a roof inspection needed.

Pre- 2010, the good ol days.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Once Upon a time a licensed electrician could install a Solar System without any engineering drawing, UL-Listens, plans or anything. Just with the manual from the manufacturer of the system

A solar install took less then a day and only a roof inspection needed.

Pre- 2010, the good ol days.

Gotta regulate everything to death and wrap a load of red tape around everything. Can't keep things simple!

 

[Danke]

Gotta regulate everything to death and wrap a load of red tape around everything. Can't keep things simple!

Bureaucrats have to justify their jobs somehow.

 

[Hedges]

1 gallon of gas, in the right conditions, contains more explosive force than 40 lbs of dynamite (about 80 sticks). I read somewhere that the U.S army believes that if one of those tractor-trailer (14k+ gal) sized tanks were to be vaporized and exploded, it would be equivalent to a medium sized nuclear bomb. I would love to have seen that testing!

One of those videos said 5x atmospheric pressure from the fuel-air bomb, which is pretty low. Like from a compressed air tank.
But because the fuel was distributed over an area (plane source), the pressure would remain uniform as it propagated for a distance on the order of its width. 75 psi blew the building over. It disintegrated the mannequin, but I think it would just fling an actual body.

There may be a shock wave due to rise time of the pressure. It may or may not require a shock wave to detonate, vs. just a flame. (Gasoline charge in an engine burns without detonating, up to some pressure. Diesel I think detonates, so must be continuously injected rather than delivered from a carburetor.) Shock wave also causes damage and injury, and propagates over a greater distance than a slow pressure increase would, because it travels as a localized wave, over a surface rather than filling a volume. So explosives cause injury at a distance, and barriers of some construction can protect.

What this low pressure device would not do is penetrate hardened targets. High pressures and shock waves can do that.

A rocket fuel plant, on fire, undergoes transition from "deflagration to detonation".

 

[McKravitts]

I am developing my own "experimental" solar system and like all my projects, I looked up the rules after I was well into it.

The electric company in my area has enormous political power and their finger print is all over all the regulations and codes.
They have given enormous political contributions to state legislator and got some very favorable rules and local codes that make it very hard to comply with.
They are arrogant enough to be running tv ads touting how they can produce solar power for 1/3 the cost of "roof top solar"
At the same time they are lobbying for yet another rate increase.
Interpretation : "Why would anyone want to save money when they can just sit back and watch us make more?"

They have successfully got a very lucrative net metering program passed into law.

They only credit 1/5th of what they charge and can credit zero after 1% of their total energy comes from roof top solar.

 

[TRW]

I think you have summed up the situation perfectly. I will add, that they get you to produce the power that they get to sell, They also get to set all the rules, and they simply don't like competition, you have become a competitor, by being a power producer, and they make all the money.

I love the electric utility, I just wish they would treat the people fairly, they consider independent solar producers a pain in the neck.

 

[kanelr]

Stand alone may be best way, yikes

 

[timselectric]

Residential production is a pain for the grid. And it's only going to get worse.
Because it's unpredictable and produced at the wrong time and location for the grids needs.

 

[TRW]

Residential production is pain for the grid. And it's only going to get worse.
Because it's unpredictable and produced at the wrong time and location for the grids needs.

I will agree, but it is far easier today than ten years ago, and the only reason they put up with us is because in many places there is a mandate to be renewable.

 

[timselectric]

I will agree, but it is far easier today than ten years ago, and the only reason they put up with us is because in many places there is a mandate to be renewable.

Completely agree.
If the government didn't make them, they would definitely say no.

 

[Bl2yan]

Once Upon a time a licensed electrician could install a Solar System without any engineering drawing, UL-Listens, plans or anything. Just with the manual from the manufacturer of the system

A solar install took less then a day and only a roof inspection needed.

Pre- 2010, the good ol days.

Fires fires fires

 

[Hedges]

They are arrogant enough to be running tv ads touting how they can produce solar power for 1/3 the cost of "roof top solar"

That much is true. Yet our (Calif) government requires new home purchasers to pay for rooftop solar.
(at least there is option to share in community solar project instead. Don't know the cost.)

Our money would go 3x farther toward producing renewable energy if invested in utility scale solar.

I once listened to a timeshare sales pitch, then went home and bought a dividend-paying stock in the travel/vacation industry. Same could apply to power generation. Given a system of credits applied toward utility bill, people could buy or sell shares in power plant if their consumption changes.

They have successfully got a very lucrative net metering program passed into law.

They only credit 1/5th of what they charge and can credit zero after 1% of their total energy comes from roof top solar.

Are you penalized for having PV, or forced onto a different rate schedule?
If so, zero export. If not, export for near-zero credit is simpler and costs less.
Just try to utilize as much of your production as possible for savings off retail.
What are your rates? Some batteries may approach $0.05/kWh, if they last claimed number of cycles. But to ensure a return I wouldn't count on the lasting over 25%, so $0.20/kWh.

 

[Ampster]

Our money would go 3x farther toward producing renewable energy if invested in utility scale solar.

There are also significant CEC grants for installing batteries for homeowners. I think there are enough market incentives for utility scale solar especially with the ITC.I don't want my tax dollars going to profit private investors. Remember the California market is deregulated and investors are building out utility scale solar already. The latest projects are including batteries because that gives them protection from curtailment risk and the ability to sell into the peak rate period.

 

[Goboatingnow]

I do think increasing solar micro-generation will be regulated and I suspect FIT will be done away with. Grid operators hate micro- generation

Then again the grid operator shouldn’t be forced to buy something it doesn’t want.

At least I can diy simply by not telling anyone at micro-generation levels.

Personally I think grid export is nonsense and should be banned at micro -generation levels