RayfromTx video "Reduce the Risk When Buying Lifepo4 From Alibaba!" is misleading

[kolek]

The moderator @upnorthandpersonal and I have traded a dozen messages over the last 2 hours on this topic and we both agree that the popular video by @RayfromTX entitled "Reduce the Risk When Buying Lifepo4 From Alibaba!" is misleading.

We felt it was important to let the members of this forum know to prevent them from making a buying decision they may regret.

The reason the video is misleading is @RayfromTX implies in the video that there is no difference between the cells being sold by Amy Wan at Luyuan and Jenny Wu at Docan. He makes it like they are the same identical cells, and Jenny Wu is just cheaper.

This is actually not the case. As the moderator @upnorthandpersonal puts it, Amy Wan is selling EV (electric vehicle) grade batteries which have passed all the manufacturer's (EVE) specs and tests, and Jenny Wu at Docan is selling cells that have been discarded by EVE.

So it's not that Amy Wan's prices are more expensive. They are actually the same. Amy Wan also sells the same discarded EVE cells that Jenny Wu at Docan sells for the same price Jenny does.

Where the moderator @upnorthandpersonal and I disagree is over intent. In my opinion, Ray knows these facts, and is being intentionally deceptive, and the moderator believes Ray was just misinformed when he made the video.

The EV grade batteries have generally been referred to by Amy at Luyuan as Grade A, and the discarded cells she refers to as Grade B.

Compounding this, Jenny Wu at Docan claims to be selling Grade A cells, which to most people means EV-grade cells that have passed all EVE's tests and meet all their specs, when in fact she's going to send you discarded EVE cells. Again, I feel Docan is being deliberately misleading when they do this, and the moderator seems to think Docan has no actual intent to deceive. I guess each of you can decide for yourselves which seems more plausible.

In any case, the important thing is that people understand what's actually what, and don't get tricked.

Good luck everyone!

Edit: I should mention that @Will Prowse was also a passive participant in the exchange.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I would like to clarify one thing: I am not saying that Ray or Docan is misleading anyone on purpose. I'm a happy customer of Docan myself.
The big issue with raw cells at the moment is the terminology. "Grade A" doesn't mean anything. Docan uses it, Luyuan uses it, and everyone else uses it. EVE doesn't use it. For EVE, there are only EV batteries they sell, and batteries they sell in bulk to vendors that didn't meet their internal quality tests. Reasons for failing can be lower capacity, cosmetic issues, internal resistance not what it should be at high C rates, and a myriad of other parameters.

As always, the following still stands (to the best of current knowledge, and take it with a grain of salt):

- If you want EV grade batteries with an EVE testing report etc., buy them from e.g. Luyuan
- If you don't care about that, want them for solar applications, etc. Docan is perfectly fine.

 

[John Frum]

Asserting intent assumes a burden of proof.
Proving what goes on between someone else's ears is difficult.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I don't know about other's, but I don't believe Amy Wan's cells are grade A. Perhaps it's timing related, but zero of my nine cells received in Jan, 2021 met capacity test.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I don't know about other's, but I don't believe Amy Wan's cells are grade A. Perhaps it's timing related, but zero of my nine cells received in Jan, 2021 met capacity test.

There is all kinds of weird stuff going on (see the SFK stuff), and I don't know where it's going.

As I mentioned to OP in our long discussion (seriously, I never typed so much in a private thread), "based on the available knowledge, the information was correct". The issue with all of this is that things change so fast that what was true yesterday, isn't anymore today.

 

[kolek]

I don't know about other's, but I don't believe Amy Wan's cells are grade A. Perhaps it's timing related, but zero of my nine cells received in Jan, 2021 met capacity test.

She sells both. Are you sure you ordered the Grade A? The Grade A cells are much more expensive, currently $146 vs $110 for the grade B.

Did you contact her and if so, what was her response?

 

[SparkyJJO]

How I see it:

If you get the EVE test page for each cell with all its data - "Grade A"
No test results document with the cells - "Grade B" and this is a wide swath of cells ranging from near perfect but not quite to rather mediocre.

Some places sell "Grade G" - GARBAGE. Could be damaged, failed tests miserably, used/abused, or who knows what else.

Docan is "Grade B" - don't expect EV grade there, but solar storage is fine.

 

[kolek]

As I mentioned to OP in our long discussion (seriously, I never typed so much in a private thread)

Huge thanks to @upnorthandpersonal for his amazing patience. @Will Prowse himself commented that it was a pity our conversation wasn't public on the forum.

 

[Bluedog225]

Quite a lot of energy in this crusade.

 

[John Frum]

How I see it:

If you get the EVE test page for each cell with all its data - "Grade A"
No test results document with the cells - "Grade B" and this is a wide swath of cells ranging from near perfect but not quite to rather mediocre.

Some places sell "Grade G" - GARBAGE. Could be damaged, failed tests miserably, used/abused, or who knows what else.

Docan is "Grade B" - don't expect EV grade there, but solar storage is fine.

One thing that would strongly suggest bad faith is a fake EVE test page.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

One thing that would strongly suggest bad faith is a fake EVE test page.

Yes, that's where I draw the line: if there are fake test pages by a vendor, or the 'B' on the QR code gets removed, or any other deliberately deceiving practices like that. I don't care what vendor it is at that point, I'll never do business with them again and you can be damn sure I will report on it here for everyone to see.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

She sells both. Are you sure you ordered the Grade A? The Grade A cells are much more expensive, currently $146 vs $110 for the grade B.

Did you contact her and if so, what was her response?

I was told at the time of purchase they were grade A. I never believed it. I don't believe true grade A cells are available from these vendors.

I don't care enough to follow up. They all tested 263-279Ah. Value accepted.

 

[John Frum]

@Amy Wan could you please post an actual Eve test report for cells that you have sold?
Hope this helps.

 

[kolek]

The reason I initiated this post is I watched Ray's video, and because I'm in the market for batteries and he recommended Jenny at Docan so enthusiastically, I went and got a quote from her. In the video he repeats several times how honest she is, and how she never lied to him.

What I found when I contacted her was I could never get a straight answer to my questions. For example, in my first message to her I asked 4 questions, including asking if they are Grade A cells, and she'd respond with a single "Yes."

Seemed to me she was being evasive, and it's understandable, since Grade B is probably a more accurate depiction of what she's selling, based on the most commonly accepted definitions.

 

[houseofancients]

The moderator @upnorthandpersonal and I have traded a dozen messages over the last 2 hours on this topic and we both agree that the popular video by @RayfromTX entitled "Reduce the Risk When Buying Lifepo4 From Alibaba!" is misleading.

We felt it was important to let the members of this forum know to prevent them from making a buying decision they may regret.

The reason the video is misleading is @RayfromTX implies in the video that there is no difference between the cells being sold by Amy Wan at Luyuan and Jenny Wu at Docan. He makes it like they are the same identical cells, and Jenny Wu is just cheaper.

This is actually not the case. As the moderator @upnorthandpersonal puts it, Amy Wan is selling EV (electric vehicle) grade batteries which have passed all the manufacturer's (EVE) specs and tests, and Jenny Wu at Docan is selling cells that have been discarded by EVE.

So it's not that Amy Wan's prices are more expensive. They are actually the same. Amy Wan also sells the same discarded EVE cells that Jenny Wu at Docan sells for the same price Jenny does.

Where the moderator @upnorthandpersonal and I disagree is over intent. In my opinion, Ray knows these facts, and is being intentionally deceptive, and the moderator believes Ray was just misinformed when he made the video.

The EV grade batteries have generally been referred to by Amy at Luyuan as Grade A, and the discarded cells she refers to as Grade B.

Compounding this, Jenny Wu at Docan claims to be selling Grade A cells, which to most people means EV-grade cells that have passed all EVE's tests and meet all their specs, when in fact she's going to send you discarded EVE cells. Again, I feel Docan is being deliberately misleading when they do this, and the moderator seems to think Docan has no actual intent to deceive. I guess each of you can decide for yourselves which seems more plausible.

In any case, the important thing is that people understand what's actually what, and don't get tricked.

Good luck everyone!

Edit: I should mention that @Will Prowse was also a passive participant in the exchange.

not sure i agree with this whole lot.
unless i am very mistaken, ray's statement are based on his actual tests, which he shows.

now to add.
i am not convinced amy does indeed sell ev grades, goos cells yes, but ev grade no.

simply look at the sfk cell tests ( which by their own admission are amy's cell..


i dont really the way this was brought to, as if it is a fact he is misleading, he seems to base his conclusions on the basis of actual test, instead of claims made by sellers
it would have gentleman like to first ask ray's opinion before making him out to be a fraude and liar


just my 2 cents

 

[wattmatters]

"Grade A" for LiFePO4 battery cells reminds me a little of "Tier 1" for solar PV panels*.

From a customer perspective they are meaningless terms which have been misappropriated by vendors to create a false sense of product quality in the mind of potential customers.

Focus on the actual specifications, verified data sheet, manufacturing date and actual test data. Add to that the service and warranty support reputation of the seller.

As to claims of intent to deliberately deceive, that's a pretty high bar to prove.

If you are buying a battery cell based on whether or not it is marketed as "Grade A" then you are only deceiving yourself. One man's Grade A is another woman's reject.


* Tier 1 for PV has a strictly financial market meaning and has no direct relevance to the actual quality or suitability of a PV panel. But el-cheapo dodgy brothers solar PV installers use the term all the time.

 

[kolek]

I'm actually expecting this thread to get a massive amount of criticism because there is a large contingent of members here who step in to defend both Ray and Docan.

In particular, if someone posts a problem with a Docan order, I see the same 5-10 people showing up to attack the poster, demanding to see all kinds of proof, and yet these same people post attacks on Luyuan without providing any proof.

 

[houseofancients]

I'm actually expecting this thread to get a massive amount of criticism because there is a large contingent of members here who step in to defend both Ray and Docan.

In particular, if someone posts a problem with a Docan order, I see the same 5-10 people showing up to attack the poster, demanding to see all kinds of proof, and yet these same people post attacks on Luyuan without providing any proof.

well, not really, i heavily defended docan in the past , as i did lyuan.
both have had a number of questionable cells send out in the last months/weeks , so i stopped.

i believe they are both trying to send out the best cells they can get their hands on, but non are ev grade at the moment.
there is a reason docan stopped promoting eve cells since their "b" qr policy change and are now heavily promoting CATL cells

i am of the opinion it is very much impossible to obtain ev grade cells at the moment, as car man. is ramping up so fast , the big battery companies like EVE and CATL simply cant keep up and reserve their ev grade cells for ev's.

cant judge on ganfeng, nor REPT , as those cells are really from dark territory from.my point of view.

 

[kolek]

As to claims of intent to deliberately deceive, that's a pretty high bar to prove.

Short of Docan and RayfromTx coming here and admitting they're deliberately trying to deceive, yes, it is nearly impossible to prove their intent. But they're both making money off the misleading video, aren't they? Ray is getting commission on Docan sales from that video. To me, that suggests they may have less than honest intent. All Ray had to do is ask Amy why Jenny's cells are cheaper, and he would have found out they're not the same cells, and for all I know, he did ask her. Why wouldn't he?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

The reason I initiated this post is I watched Ray's video, and because I'm in the market for batteries and he recommended Jenny at Docan so enthusiastically, I went and got a quote from her. In the video he repeats several times how honest she is, and how she never lied to him.

What I found when I contacted her was I could never get a straight answer to my questions. For example, in my first message to her I asked 4 questions, including asking if they are Grade A cells, and she'd respond with a single "Yes."

Seemed to me she was being evasive, and it's understandable, since Grade B is probably a more accurate depiction of what she's selling, based on the most commonly accepted definitions.

But that's the thing I've also told you in the private conversation we had: what is "Grade A"? Who defines "Grade A"? EVE doesn't. If it pulls capacity, and they're made in the last few months, and they look good and arrive in good condition, it's "Grade A". This Grade A/B stuff are terms invented by the buyers of the cells to try and quantify/qualify the type of cells they were getting from the vendors. There is nothing in the industry that defines what "Grade A" means.