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diy solar

Safety hazard w/ Growatt 5000ES (European version) when connected to American grid

"If you have any worries or doubts about the product or safety, please heed caution as necessary"

What??

I assume you mean buyers are on their own, and should consult with an electrician or engineer about wiring. Which is great and all, but then again, YOU MODIFY THE INTERNALS WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE.

What other modifications have been made? Could these other modifications also potentially charge the case? Are you going to completely disregard the problems brought up with the autotransformer you packaged this with to work with the American grid?

I don't really know what I expected as a response, but wow, that wasn't it.
 
ArkRob said:
"If you have any worries or doubts about the product or safety, please heed caution as necessary"

What??

I assume you mean buyers are on their own, and should consult with an electrician or engineer about wiring. Which is great and all, but then again, YOU MODIFY THE INTERNALS WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE.

What other modifications have been made? Could these other modifications also potentially charge the case? Are you going to completely disregard the problems brought up with the autotransformer you packaged this with to work with the American grid?

I don't really know what I expected as a response, but wow, that wasn't it.
Click to expand...
Please make sure to quote my entire post if you are going to quote me and please read the many responses that I've posted regarding the issue in this thread before you say that I'm 'going to completely disregard the problems brought up'. I 100% disagree with the way you painted my response.
1 - Here is my original post that you choose to quote one sentence from:
Hey everyone, I know this is a big issue that has a lot of people looking at Growatt products (and likely several other inverters as well). I'd like to step in to just clarify a few things:
1. The grounding screw is removed at Growatt for the units we sell. I can't speak for other providers but we discovered this issue at the beginning of our partnership with Growatt and it is OEM for inverters sold by SS to have this removed. This allows you to maintain your full warranty.
2. Based on this thread, we are going to do additional research into insulating and preventing accidental issues of the PCB touching the chassis or any other part of the inverter that would cause this issue to reoccur. We appreciate any feedback from users so we can make sure everyone feels safe using our products.
3. Safety is always our #1 priority. We understand the inherent dangers of working with electricity and always side with caution over sales or profit. That being said - we also want to stress the importance for DIYers to practice safe protocols when working with these units. Regardless of features and functions we add, there will always be the chance at hurting yourself or your property when you work on and around these units. NEVER work with a unit that is connected to a power source, NEVER open your unit while it is powered on or connected, and NEVER undertake any task that you are not 100% comfortable working on. Please do not risk your health or the safety of your property or loved ones under any circumstances.

I look forward to hearing any feedback and we will be updating everyone with additional information about this issue in the near future. If you have any worries or doubts about the product or safety, please heed caution as necessary.

2 - SS did not modify the internals - Growatt made the change after we brought up the concerns. I will agree that we should have verified the manual was updated (actually, I'm not sure that this is mentioned in the manual at any point, but I digress) and correctly reflected the product we sell. I'll research how we can make this change, and I thank you for the suggestion.

3 - We are not going to completely disregard the issue. We are doing additional research and testing (and also working with Growatt) on an improved design for a midpoint transformer (see my other post going over a new design we are working on if you'd like to see more) and will always do everything we can to ensure that our products are safe. A good portion of our employees use these products and we don't want anyone to hurt themselves.

I appreciate your feedback on these points but there is no need to paint me in a bad light as though I'm intentionally ignoring this issue. Read my post history and you will see that Signature Solar, specifically myself, do our best to help customers and DIY enthusiasts every step of the way.

I'm not sure how asking people to make sure they take caution when working with deadly amounts of electricity was construed as ignoring the issue presented, or really in any negative light. If you have specific questions or concerns I'd be happy to answer them via PM or publicly on the forums!
 
Signature - since the issue of chassis voltage was mentioned, can you confirm that chassis is connected to a ground wire terminal?
If so, that would ensure chassis could never be electrified, would trip breaker or shut off inverter if ever connected to a hot net.

I've only seen images posted on this or another thread showing a PCB hole marked with the symbol for ground, which would have a screw bonding that node of PCB to chassis. I can't tell from those photos if this is the removal of neutral/ground bond which was mentioned, or if it was grounding case to a PCB net that goes elsewhere to a ground wire.

Someone has posted that the measure open circuit between Neutral of grid and neutral of load side, also between Line of grid and Line of load side. That is good, otherwise would properly isolate from grid when running as a 240V inverter with two hots. Other brands I know of have a single pole disconnect, so couldn't be used this way.
 
Hi Richard,

I'm sorry for the tone. There are safety concerns here though; and I will also try to be more specific.

Can you answer the solder flow concerns brought up in this thread (potential solder flow to the backside of the PCB) that may lead to a charged case?

I understand that you are doing additional research with a new piece of equipment to bundle in your package. Would you specifically address the potential problems brought up in this thread about the previously bundled equipment (previously bundled autotransformer) for buyers that purchased this before the new autotransformer was available?

Will you offer typical schematics for safe use? I don't think this is too much to ask at this point; SS put together a modified package deal and made claims about this package's abilities. That goes beyond puffing, and whether workers at SS put their hands in the internals or not is irrelevant.
 
signaturesolarrichard said:
Hey everyone, I know this is a big issue that has a lot of people looking at Growatt products (and likely several other inverters as well). I'd like to step in to just clarify a few things:
1. The grounding screw is removed at Growatt for the units we sell. I can't speak for other providers but we discovered this issue at the beginning of our partnership with Growatt and it is OEM for inverters sold by SS to have this removed. This allows you to maintain your full warranty.
2. Based on this thread, we are going to do additional research into insulating and preventing accidental issues of the PCB touching the chassis or any other part of the inverter that would cause this issue to reoccur. We appreciate any feedback from users so we can make sure everyone feels safe using our products.
3. Safety is always our #1 priority. We understand the inherent dangers of working with electricity and always side with caution over sales or profit. That being said - we also want to stress the importance for DIYers to practice safe protocols when working with these units. Regardless of features and functions we add, there will always be the chance at hurting yourself or your property when you work on and around these units. NEVER work with a unit that is connected to a power source, NEVER open your unit while it is powered on or connected, and NEVER undertake any task that you are not 100% comfortable working on. Please do not risk your health or the safety of your property or loved ones under any circumstances.

I look forward to hearing any feedback and we will be updating everyone with additional information about this issue in the near future. If you have any worries or doubts about the product or safety, please heed caution as necessary.
Click to expand...
So those that were already sold with just screw removed only and do not have insulation material installed? if not, then it just a matter of time that the PCB can make contact with the chassis due to vibration or loose PCB mounting screws or have arc over.
 
Last edited:
Hedges said:
Signature - since the issue of chassis voltage was mentioned, can you confirm that chassis is connected to a ground wire terminal?
If so, that would ensure chassis could never be electrified, would trip breaker or shut off inverter if ever connected to a hot net.

I've only seen images posted on this or another thread showing a PCB hole marked with the symbol for ground, which would have a screw bonding that node of PCB to chassis. I can't tell from those photos if this is the removal of neutral/ground bond which was mentioned, or if it was grounding case to a PCB net that goes elsewhere to a ground wire.

Someone has posted that the measure open circuit between Neutral of grid and neutral of load side, also between Line of grid and Line of load side. That is good, otherwise would properly isolate from grid when running as a 240V inverter with two hots. Other brands I know of have a single pole disconnect, so couldn't be used this way.
Click to expand...
The sad part is that based on past questions and the delays in getting replies I suspect they have no idea and have to wait on the Chinese to give them a response. As a middle aged engineer it's the lack of basic engineering knowledge about products that companies sell that I find the most disturbing.
It use to be a matter of pride to know everything about what you sell and to always have an Tech who could answer the most detailed questions quickly.
In another case, we still cannot even find out if all the EG4 variants and Gyll batteries can communicate to one another. That's crazy, because they have them right there, why hasn't someone just pulled a few out of the boxes and see what happens?
 
SS look at my pictures of a knock off inverter and see if there is a similar arrangement on the Growatts.
If you need help, reach out to me.
 
Hedges said:
Signature - since the issue of chassis voltage was mentioned, can you confirm that chassis is connected to a ground wire terminal?
If so, that would ensure chassis could never be electrified, would trip breaker or shut off inverter if ever connected to a hot net.

I've only seen images posted on this or another thread showing a PCB hole marked with the symbol for ground, which would have a screw bonding that node of PCB to chassis. I can't tell from those photos if this is the removal of neutral/ground bond which was mentioned, or if it was grounding case to a PCB net that goes elsewhere to a ground wire.

Someone has posted that the measure open circuit between Neutral of grid and neutral of load side, also between Line of grid and Line of load side. That is good, otherwise would properly isolate from grid when running as a 240V inverter with two hots. Other brands I know of have a single pole disconnect, so couldn't be used this way.
Click to expand...
We recommend grounding the inverter 100% - this is a separate issue regarding a neutral/ground bond that by default is done at the inverter on most European models of inverters - and specifically with the 5000ES by a screw found on the PCB. I'll update as I am informed of more information.
 
ArkRob said:
Hi Richard,

I'm sorry for the tone. There are safety concerns here though; and I will also try to be more specific.

Can you answer the solder flow concerns brought up in this thread (potential solder flow to the backside of the PCB) that may lead to a charged case?

I understand that you are doing additional research with a new piece of equipment to bundle in your package. Would you specifically address the potential problems brought up in this thread about the previously bundled equipment (previously bundled autotransformer) for buyers that purchased this before the new autotransformer was available?

Will you offer typical schematics for safe use? I don't think this is too much to ask at this point; SS put together a modified package deal and made claims about this package's abilities. That goes beyond puffing, and whether workers at SS put their hands in the internals or not is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. I will find an answer for you and post it as soon as more information becomes available. Regarding the previous transformer, we have a setup on the bench currently undergoing numerous tests and we will be posting that information soon, hopefully to include a generic wiring diagram and an explanation behind it. I 100% agree - if we make a claim we need to stand behind it or make it right, and in this case we are verifying, testing, and getting ready to share the info in order to make sure our customers can use our products correctly and safely.
 
Bud Martin said:
So those that were already sold with just screw removed only and do not have insulation material installed? if not, then it just a matter of time that the PCB can make contact with the chassis due to vibration or loose PCB mounting screws or have arc over.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure but will speak with my bench team tomorrow to find out more information.
 
signaturesolarrichard said:
I'm not sure but will speak with my bench team tomorrow to find out more information.
Click to expand...
That will be great. May be you can provide us some pictures as well.
I would first try pushing down on the PCB where the screw is removed and see if the Ohm meter will show connection between PCB Gnd and the chassis or not, that is an easy test.
 
robby said:
The sad part is that based on past questions and the delays in getting replies I suspect they have no idea and have to wait on the Chinese to give them a response. As a middle aged engineer it's the lack of basic engineering knowledge about products that companies sell that I find the most disturbing.
It use to be a matter of pride to know everything about what you sell and to always have an Tech who could answer the most detailed questions quickly.
In another case, we still cannot even find out if all the EG4 variants and Gyll batteries can communicate to one another. That's crazy, because they have them right there, why hasn't someone just pulled a few out of the boxes and see what happens?
Click to expand...
Hey there, totally hear you. I'll be honest - I'm not an electrical engineer and probably could learn more from some of the people on this forum than I could teach them, but I can guarantee there are resources available to me (my co-workers) who could write volumes of books about these devices. At the end of the day we are a supplier, we just happen to be the only supplier who goes out of their way to have a technical support team learn our products and support DIYers - a lot more than most companies out there. We are not the manufacturer of the product in this case (Growatt) but we have made every attempt to learn, deconstruct, and discover solutions on behalf of our customers. That being said, this issue was originally discovered by one of our bench technicians and that is why the manufacturer started to remove the screw OEM for products sold from us as a supplier. We made them aware of the issue, not the other way around. Regarding the batteries - there's a lot to unpack there and I'll be posting a detailed response to that issue soon - but again we do want to test and verify anything that we say before we start publishing information.

As always, personally I love to hear and interact with everyone on the forum because it helps me grow, it helps SS grow, and most importantly it helps the industry grow and I love it. I'm not replying at 10:30PM because I'm clocked in and being paid (I'm not), I do it because I love interacting and helping and learning. Hope that makes it clear where my and my companies intentions are on having satisfied customers.
 
Bud Martin said:
That will be great. May be you can provide us some pictures as well.
I would first try pushing down on the PCB where the screw is removed and see if the Ohm meter will show connection between PCB Gnd and the chassis or not, that is an easy test.
Click to expand...
Yes sir, as I am able. You can follow my profile to be update when I make comments or posts if you want to keep track.
 
We identify our folks always, Signature Solar is James.

The bottom line here is that this unit is wildly successful in the USA, with over 5000 units shipped, and all of a sudden, a theory video gets every one up in arms? I am staring at my 3 units tonight that I installed to prove the concept in 2020 and telling them that a lot of people are saying that they need to start misbehaving more.
 
Bud Martin said:
That will be great. May be you can provide us some pictures as well.
I would first try pushing down on the PCB where the screw is removed and see if the Ohm meter will show connection between PCB Gnd and the chassis or not, that is an easy test.
Click to expand...
Fingers should stay out of the PCB during normal operation...
 
Well, we will find out when you inspect the unit closer to see if they just remove the screw only without putting the insulation sheet between the PCB and the screw post or not, if they did not remove the screw post then it just a matter of time that the PCB will make contact with screw post or having arc over at that location.
 
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