Which Turbine?

[cockatoo]

I've recently retired and moved into a house on the coast with a modest solar install; whilst we could expand this to around 6kW, this will generate a lot more power than we need in Summer and somewhat less in Winter. A pitiful feed-in tariff offered by the local utility (about 8% of what they charge) has got me thinking about a wind turbine. A common theme here is "don't bother" but I'm curious; have been monitoring our wind resource, and have learnt all about Betz's law and the garbage claims made by most manufacturers. I'm leaning toward the vertical axis types because of the aesthetic appeal, and because I'm pretty sure Council won't let me put up a mast.

There has been a bit said here about Primus and Ista; other non-Chinese manufacturers that keep turning up in my searches are Tesup and Makemu. Tesup seem to make pretty dodgy performance claims and don't enjoy much of a reputation as far as I can tell; Makemu's Eolo looks appealing although I'm mystified by their weirdly-shaped performance curve, and why their three models ranging from 1kW to 3kW are all the same size.

I'd love to hear from anyone having real-world experience of these or any other models that I might be interested in.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

@OzSolar . Your on.

 

[kanelr]

I too am on the search. Am replacing damaged Air 403's. Primus is of course the closest direct but the 403's weren't wonderful in our siting situation.. One thing that seems clear is that there is performance improvement as blade diameter increases.( 5' has much more power potential than 4' for example). Am still thinking about the company that uses the car alternators, Missouri Wind and Solar (from memory). A few heated rounds about them here somewhere however their raptor series intrigues. And Primus has an improved "Air" model, I read. On the water you know there are factors with salt...

 

[MisterSandals]

I'd love to hear from anyone having real-world experience of these or any other models that I might be interested in.

The feasibility of wind power usually comes down to sustained wind speeds. Have you measured this at different times of the day?

 

[rhino]

whilst we could expand this to around 6kW, this will generate a lot more power than we need in Summer and somewhat less in Winter.

This is what people do since it is the simplest and most reliable long term. Install enough solar to cover you over winter and yes you will have more excess in Summer but so what? Much easier and less complicated than dealing with flaky wind turbines that will last only a fraction of the time a solar install will.

 

[cockatoo]

The feasibility of wind power usually comes down to sustained wind speeds. Have you measured this at different times of the day?

Yep - Aside from my own little gizmo we have a full meteorological station in a very similar location just a few km away. The wind isn't sustained but our position is sufficiently exposed to catch anything going.

This is what people do since it is the simplest and most reliable long term. Install enough solar to cover you over winter and yes you will have more excess in Summer but so what? Much easier and less complicated than dealing with flaky wind turbines that will last only a fraction of the time a solar install will.

We don't have enough roof to meet our Winter requirements with solar, but Winter is windier anyway (and it blows all night). Excess solar generated in Summer would in any case be wasted at the feed-in tariff we get.

Doesn't look as though there's much interest in wind here anyway.

 

[MisterSandals]

Doesn't look as though there's much interest in wind here anyway.

There is quite a bit of interest. The feasibility of wind power is too low for most locations. Living in a virtual wind tunnel and/or being able to have a higher tower are pretty much required from what I’ve seen.

I made a 5’ diameter turbine with a treadmill motor. Besides being like a drug crazed ninja when the wind blows, and no neighbourhood acceptance of a tower/windmill, I can’t make it work.

 

[cockatoo]

I figure I can get three to four times as many watts out of a Chinese turbine, but unfortunately, even my Chinese appliances don't seem to run on Chinese watts..

 

[Warpspeed]

One good storm, and you are probably going to be right back where you started.
That can become expensive.

You need to go through a couple of winters to really understand the scale of the problem.
Where I am, I run out of power probably about four to six times per year when I have several really dismal grey cloudy days in a row.
For about 350 days of the year I am 100% solar here, and doing just fine.

My alternatives are:
Provide a backup generator for battery recharging (which I now have).
Rely on the grid as my backup. If you only need to do that very infrequently, the cost will be negligible.
Increase my battery capacity enough to last for five to seven days in a row (which I will soon have).
Wind or hydro is not an option here in the suburbs.

If you only run short for a couple of days at a time, a larger battery might be all you need.

If you just plain run out of power for weeks at a time in winter, you need a LOT more solar.

There is no single correct answer.....

 

[cockatoo]

One good storm, and you are probably going to be right back where you started.
That can become expensive.

You need to go through a couple of winters to really understand the scale of the problem.
Where I am, I run out of power probably about four to six times per year when I have several really dismal grey cloudy days in a row.
For about 350 days of the year I am 100% solar here, and doing just fine.

My alternatives are:
Provide a backup generator for battery recharging (which I now have).
Rely on the grid as my backup. If you only need to do that very infrequently, the cost will be negligible.
Increase my battery capacity enough to last for five to seven days in a row (which I will soon have).
Wind or hydro is not an option here in the suburbs.

If you only run short for a couple of days at a time, a larger battery might be all you need.

If you just plain run out of power for weeks at a time in winter, you need a LOT more solar.

There is no single correct answer.....

I'm surprised that you can be 100% solar-reliant through (most) of a Melbourne Winter. Do you have gas heating, an incredibly well insulated house, huge solar array and battery, or just uncommon tolerance to cold?

As far as I can tell we used up to 30kWh per day to heat a 4x2 which was well insulated for the standards of the day (1980's) using two split system heat pumps. Power was cheap and we were pretty cozy, though.

 

[Warpspeed]

I'm surprised that you can be 100% solar-reliant through (most) of a Melbourne Winter. Do you have gas heating, an incredibly well insulated house, huge solar array and battery, or just uncommon tolerance to cold?

As far as I can tell we used up to 30kWh per day to heat a 4x2 which was well insulated for the standards of the day (1980's) using two split system heat pumps. Power was cheap and we were pretty cozy, though.

Yes, natural gas here is by far the cheapest fuel for raw heat.
So natural gas space heating, natural gas for cooking, and natural gas hot water.
I even have a home made DIY natural gas tumble clothes dryer.

I have 4Kw of north facing panels, 1.2Kw due east, and 1.2Kw due west facing panels in a passive tracker configuration.
Home made 5Kw inverter and 5Kwh battery.
In the process right now of upgrading to 28Kwh battery, which should see me totally and reliably off grid (electrically).
Pretty well insulated for winter.
Roof space very well ventilated for comfort in summer.
Air conditioning only required about four days per year when its over 40C for more than one day.
I run air conditioning off grid power at the moment, but with the larger battery should be able to run it from solar without worrying about draining my small battery and running out of night time power.

 

[OzSolar]

@OzSolar . Your on.

Sorry, I took a break for a while and just now saw this. (I'm sure people have missed me.?)

"On the coast" So does this imply a very predictable daily breeze of 14 mph or more? (~6.3 M/S) Maybe wind would be feasible IF you could find the right turbine but therein lay the challenge. AFAIK, there is no wind turbine worth buying.

And by that I mean you can buy a lot of of fuel for your existing fossil fuel generator for what you will pay for even the cheapest wind turbine by the time you put it on a decently tall tower and run the wire to it.

This is point where some will jump in and say that "small wind works great since the sun never shines at night but the wind blows" etc. I will then ask them for a screenshot of thier last years production by month or just thier last month's production but they just double down or vanish and never return.

 

[Warpspeed]

Not only the right turbine, but you need to be extremely lucky with local topography and prevailing winds.

As with hydro, you either have a promising site, or you do not.
Very very few of us are that fortunate.

 

[OzSolar]

Not only the right turbine, but you need to be extremely lucky with local topography and prevailing winds.

As with hydro, you either have a promising site, or you do not.
Very very few of us are that fortunate.

I've said it many times: Small wind won't work in 97% of sites and the biggest mistake many make is assuming they are in the that 3%. The 2nd biggest mistake they make is thinking that the wind turbine they've chosen is going to come anywhere close to making the amount of power the manufacturer claims it will.

 

[Hogheavenfarm]

I am located in a "wind tunnel" with strong seasonal flows North and South but almost no East or West winds due to the mountain ranges on both sides of me. I toyed with the idea of just permanently facing the turbine North and doing away with the rotation system,& furling, (I would just make a spring loaded tilt up). In the end I opted to make the whole shebang and see how it worked. Most of our good wind arrives in October (later this month) and blows through March. After that, only some occasional storms will turn those blades during the summer, so the system is backed up with two solar panels for those dead wind summer days. I havent seen it over 200 rpm yet, but I am sure I will this winter. I need to confirm the furling mechanism works! Still wiring up the new charge controller (solar) for it and testing the dump loads to see if I have enough on it (two 300w air heaters in parallel).

 

[Warpspeed]

If you do have a suitable wind site, its probably worth logging some actual data, and then thinking the whole thing through.

 

[Hogheavenfarm]

Wind here is more of an experiment, since I couldnt just throw out a perfectly good Maytag washer without repurposing it. We have wind as supplemental power to the barns, primary is still solar. I did monitor the windspeeds all through 2022 and the last half of 2021 while I was building the turbine, so I know not to expect any usable windspeed until later this month, (actually tomorrow we are supposed to get 20-30 mph winds), but 10-20mph is fairly consistent from October to March, so that is the time I get some usable power from it, mainly to run the pond aerator and the heated water dishes for the sheep and chickens, and a few barn lights. For now this system is 12v although I may move to 24v after I add a few more panels. If the turbine survives another winter I may boost the tower height which will help dramatically in the summer.

 

[OzSolar]

I am located in a "wind tunnel" with strong seasonal flows North and South but almost no East or West winds due to the mountain ranges on both sides of me. I toyed with the idea of just permanently facing the turbine North and doing away with the rotation system,& furling, (I would just make a spring loaded tilt up).

Not a bad idea at all. In the early days of utility scale wind one of the most troublesome parts was the yaw system so after multiple failures they they often welded the nacelle down into the direction of the prevailing wind.

I can't remember exactly but the loss in total annual production was less than 10% because a wind turbine has to be at least 30 degrees or more out the the wind before production is reduced by much at all. After 45 degrees production drop happens pretty fast.

but 10-20mph is fairly consistent from October to March, so that is the time I get some usable power from it, mainly to run the pond aerator and the heated water dishes for the sheep and chickens, and a few barn lights.

So you already have a turbine and it's making some useable energy? That's cool, which one do you have? I may have to eat a few words! LOL

 

[Hogheavenfarm]

So you already have a turbine and it's making some useable energy? That's cool, which one do you have? I may have to eat a few words! LOL

Yes, I built it two years ago from an F&P motor per instructions from TheBackShed site, 4x3C Star pattern for general 12v or 24v use. As for "usable energy", it feeds a set of 12v AGM 100ah batteries (parallel for now) when the wind blows (like yesterday) and has filled the battery to full given the sounds of the relay clicking the dump load on and off. I also have a PowMr MPPT solar controller (and two dedicated 100w panels) hooked up to the same set of batteries for days when there is little wind available. This system runs a 40w heated water basin in the winter along with the pond bubbler (40w also). I am just completing a switchover to the new batteries and new controller and while this is all working again, I will have some questions and pics in the near future, but for now I still have to add in my breakers and fuses to complete the wiring layout as I am running without any at the moment. Being an experiment, the old system contained ample amounts of alligator clips and jumper wires, which were not that safe but did prove the unit is functional, so now its time to dress things up properly.
Attached is a drawing of the completed turbine and how it is assembled.

 

[wopachop]

Makemu's Eolo looks appealing although I'm mystified by their weirdly-shaped performance curve, and why their three models ranging from 1kW to 3kW are all the same size.

Im not convinced this product exists. I wrote them about buying the smaller model. Just needed to please see video of it working. They replied quickly saying yes i can buy the product. I sent a 2nd email asking to see video of the product in action and they never replied. I tried searching youtube to see if anyone bought and tested them but cant find anything.