Will blasts Chargery

[Walef]

All,
@Craig has a thread going about his search for an SSR replacement for the relays.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/ssr-testing.5347/

As part of that thread I proposed magnetic latching relays. These relays are usually controlled one of two ways:
1) Reversible coil: Positive pulse turns on, negative pulse turns off.
2) Dual coil: Pulse on one coil turns on Pulse on other coil turns off. (These seem to be a bit less common)

The key is that the coil is only pulsed. It does not stay on. This means you would have extremely low energy to power the relay (Like an SSR) and still have the extremely low voltage/power drop across the contacts of a relay.

Ideally, the Chargery would have a relay board that provides the pulse for driving a latching relay. However, something like this could be done using a positive-negative pulse magnetic latching relay with auxiliary contacts:

NOTES:

• Relay 1 coil voltage should be 12V to match the Chargery signal
• Relay 2 coil voltage should match the system voltage.
• The Weidmuller 1127150000 called out is a Din-Rail Mount SSR I have used in the past. Almost any small SSR with a 12Volt coil should work.

Theory of Operation:
Turn On sequence

1. The circuit as shown is the starting point with everything off.
   Note that in this state, both sides of relay 2 coil are hooked to the positive, so nothing will happen.
2. The Chargery energizes the signal, causing relay 1 to turn on, connecting pin 1 of the coil of relay 2 to negative.
3. Since pin 2 of the coil of Relay 2 is already connected to positive, the coil is energized in a 'positive' direction, energizing the load and flipping the auxiliary contact to B(negative).
4. When the auxiliary contact on relay 2 flipped to negative, both sides of the coil of relay 2 is connected to negative and the coil is de-energized. However, since relay 2 is a bi-stable relay, it does not change state.

At this point relay 2 is on but not drawing any current on the coil. Relay 1 is on but only drawing about 20mA.

Turn off sequence

1. The initial condition is that relay 1 is on and the bi-stable relay is on but the coil is not energized because both sides of the relay 2 coil are connected to negative.
2. The Chargery turns off the relay signal so relay 1 switches state, connecting pin 1 of the coil of relay 2 to positive.
3. Relay two now has an 'Negative' energized coil with Positive on Pin 1 and Negative on Pin 2. This causes the relay to de-energize the load and flipping the auxiliary contact to “A” (Positive).
4. Both sides of the relay 2 coil are now connected to Positive so the coil is de-energized but since it is a bi-stable relay, it does not change state.

Note, the opposing diodes (D1 & D2) across the coil of relay 2 are there to drain the voltage spike that will occur when the coil is de-energized. (You could probably do this with a single zenor diode). This is important for protecting the output of relay 1.

Here is an example of a magnetic latching relay with auxiliary contacts.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/magnetic-latching-type-dc-contactor_1500742311.html

Note: There is a similar design using a second SSR that does not require the auxiliary contact on the latching relay. (It is documented in Craig's Thread).

Warning: I am no longer pursuing using relays or SSRs so I have never built this. (I do not have existence proof it works) If anyone decides to try it, let us all know how it turns out.

@ FILTER GUY
this should modulate a permanant signal into a 100ms reset pulse for set/reset of latching relay.
BTY, this infomation was provided by Astronom in a different discussion.

http://www.rec-bms.com/datasheet/UserManual_BSLRD.pdf

 

[FilterGuy]

@ FILTER GUY
this should modulate a permanant signal into a 100ms reset pulse for set/reset of latching relay.
BTY, this infomation was provided by Astronom in a different discussion.

http://www.rec-bms.com/datasheet/UserManual_BSLRD.pdf

That looks like a nice unit. It uses dual-coil latching relays. I wonder what it costs. For the chargery, you would need two (The per-charge can be a regular relay.)

 

[Will Prowse]

"Not a big fan of data logging."

There are others who think it's quite important. There's a reason most of the high performance BMS's have data logging capability.

Design verification is extremely important. If you put a LiFePO4 system together then you need to verify the design. What's the battery resistance? Are the individual cell resistance relatively balanced? What are the thermal characteristics? A data logger makes it extremely easy. The Chargery RS232 port can be accessed to store data in an Excel file.

I'm just going to use a couple of my data files as examples.

View attachment 12474

This is a plot of discharging my 180AH, 12V battery. The 2500W inverter is powering a space heater. Battery current is 84A. It takes about 95 minutes for a cell to reach the over discharge voltage setting of 3.00V. The reset voltage is 3.10V. The system turns on right away again due to my failure to provide a larger reset voltage. The shutdown relay is switching on/off at a fairly good pace.

At the 2 minute mark, load current switches from 0A to 84A. All 4 cells drop approximately 0.13V. Cell resistance (including bus bar connections) is:

Rcell = 0.13V / 84A = 1.5 m ohm

Total battery resistance is about 6 m ohm

View attachment 12478

Chargery has 2 temperature probes. One probe is down a slot, in the middle of the pack, the other probe is located outside the pack. This second probe is hanging next to the battery pack. You can clearly see the probe in the center is heating more than the other. Granted, some of the heating is the result of ambient temperature increasing during the day.

Battery power dissipation is:
P = I^2 * R = 84A^2 * 6 m ohm = 42W

Heat energy generated within the battery is:
E = P * t = 42W * 100 min * 60 s/min = 252 kJ

In perspective, it takes 335 kJ to raise 1 liter of water from 20C to 100C (to boiling point).

View attachment 12480


The last plot to share is charging the battery with a 55A Iota IQ4 converter. The converter is actually supplying 56A. This is at the end of the charge cycle when the Chargery tells the Iota to turn off (using a small relay, switching perhaps micro amps). We're seeing about 7 oscillations in 13 minutes. Over charge disconnect is set at 3.48V and reset at 3.37V. The blue plot shows the greatest of the 4 cell voltages, the red plot shows the lowest voltage and the light green plot shows the difference between the max and min voltage. The delta voltage scale is on the right vertical side of graph. We're clearly into the knee of the charge curve. We're seeing delta of 50 mV, while below the upper knee, 10 mV to 20 mV is typical. What I found interesting is that the 50 mV is not a charge imbalance. We're seeing a voltage imbalance, possibly caused by varying increases in cell resistance. If it is a charge imbalance the 50 mV delta would remain after current is terminated (as cell voltage begins to fall). But that's not what happens. Delta voltage drops to about 10 mV.

Some of these issues are fairly difficult to detect without data logging.

Like I said in the video, these are easy to assess when building your system.

Checking internal resistance is dead simple and if the cells are new and matched, shouldn't be a problem at all. If I was pushing high c rates, then I would need to ensure that they stay matched over time. I could easily stick a heat camera on it and see which cells get hot. I don't need data logging for that. LiFePO4 with solar? IR is not on my mind at all.

That graph does not tell me much because yes, you will have different temperatures near the core when cycling. What can you do with that information? I understand the use if you are pushing c rate limits, but what's the point for your application?

What is the point of the last graph? Yeah, high soc charging characteristics are fun to look at, but what difference does this data do? I don't see the utility.

Difficult to detect without data logging?? Everything you posted can be deduced pretty easily with a cell monitor with IR measurement, and using an infrared heat gun for a few minutes. If something was wrong, you can easily spot it with a capacity test or feeling the cells with your hand. It really is not that difficult.

With all that said, data logging is fun. And useful for diagnosis of problems. But all of these things mentioned can be found within minutes with basic electrical/temperature probes. But yeah, to each their own. I see why some like it.

 

[Will Prowse]

I don't understand why people think a common port BMS is a good idea. Why have separate settings for low temp charge and load cutoff for instance .... and then shut off the load when you are below the low temp charge protection setting? Why cut off charging when a load parameter has been exceeded?

The flexibility of the independent charge and load protection is what drew me to the Chargery to begin with.

I think it is a VERY good product now and will only continue to get better.

Common port on FET based BMS can control current in both directions with a single port. With a relay system? Not so much. Personally I would omit the HVD and run SCC direct to battery cells, and manually set absorption when my highest cell reaches 3.65V (assuming the cells are top balanced). I would trust a UL listed SCC over a cheap Chinese BMS HVD any day of the week.

 

[Will Prowse]

A few of points:

1) I agree that having separate charge and Discharge controls is very nice for situations where you can control the load and charge devices directly and seperatly. However, I am *not* a fan of controlling load and charge via relays.

2) In a lot of cases, (such as an inverter charger), it is not possible to control charge and discharge separately. At that point the Chargery almost forces the use of relays or SSRs

3) Many of the BMSs discussed here on the forum (such as the Ant BMS or the 12V Bluetooth that Battery Plus sold) are what I call Hybrid port BMSs. They are wired physically like a common port BMS, but they shut down Charge and Discharge separately. (As an example, you can have charge shut down due to low temp but still have discharge)

For me, the Chargery would work nicely for some situations, but not necessarily for others. I have two or 3 BMSs that I would use depending on the situation. Each one is different. Asking which is better is akin to asking if a dump truck or a limousine is better..... the answer depends on what you are trying to do.

Yes exactly! Good points here. Glad you wrote out point 3. Thanks Filterguy

 

[Will Prowse]

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

 

[Pacer]

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Will, this is exactly my intention with this BMS. My issue is that my Giandel inverter doesn’t use a rocker switch for manual on/off, and the remote switch is the same momentary push button and connected via a data cable.

Craig and I were in discussion, and he has a method to tie into that data line to use the remote switch for SSR controlled LVD. He said he will be sharing this out to the forum sometime upcoming.

Do you have any ideas on the Giandel remote switch? Or other like it?

 

[Will Prowse]

Will, this is exactly my intention with this BMS. My issue is that my Giandel inverter doesn’t use a rocker switch for manual on/off, and the remote switch is the same momentary push button and connected via a data cable.

Craig and I were in discussion, and he has a method to tie into that data line to use the remote switch for SSR controlled LVD. He said he will be sharing this out to the forum sometime upcoming.

Do you have any ideas on the Giandel remote switch? Or other like it?

I gave up with the giandel remote control. Some have considered a timer circuit to trick the momentary switch. Yeah, data line for remote switch w/ ssr sounds possible.

How big is your inverter? If you did not spend much on it, I would go for one that has a remote input line. Nearly all victron inverters have that.

Or you can get a FET based BMS instead. Probably cheaper than buying another inverter. Takes seconds to hook up and would work perfect with the giandel.

What is your reasoning for using the chargery over a FET based BMS?

ANT BMS has charge/discharge control and protection at is rated at 320A. And at 48V, that is 15,360 watts. And it is cheap: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

 

[Will Prowse]

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Standby consumption of most FET based BMS is .2 mA. That is really tiny. Why mess with these relays?

 

[Pacer]

I gave up with the giandel remote control. Some have considered a timer circuit to trick the momentary switch. Yeah, data line for remote switch w/ ssr sounds possible.

How big is your inverter? If you did not spend much on it, I would go for one that has a remote input line. Nearly all victron inverters have that.

Or you can get a FET based BMS instead. Probably cheaper than buying another inverter. Takes seconds to hook up and would work perfect with the giandel.

What is your reasoning for using the chargery over a FET based BMS?

I will definitely have some things to think about! The Giandel is the 2000W 24V as recommended in your blueprint.

I chose this Chargery to manage my (still en route) Xuba 280ah cells for my 24v system. To me, it seemed that it would do everything it needed to and could do more, and the price was decent. I know that it may not be everyone’s favorite, but it checked the boxes for me and will hopefully serve me fine.

I did also acquire some hefty TE relays to run it as designed, but upon further brainstorming (and reading here), I would definitely prefer the remote switch option to eliminate the current draw and passing through the relays. But now with my conundrum of the Giandel remote data line, I’ll have to rethink this whole setup. But Craig May share some info that would take care of all my issues!

 

[FilterGuy]

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

In this thread, @Viron is looking to use the chargery to control his Samlex inverter.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/samlex-remote-switching.6938/#post-73365

It looks like he will be able to directly wire the Chargery output to the control pin on the Samlex (No SSR in between). I believe there are other devices that a can also use the signal directly.

Note: Victron specifically says there must be no potential applied to the control pins, so an SSR would be needed for Victron.

 

[Will Prowse]

In this thread, @Viron is looking to use the chargery to control his Samlex inverter.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/samlex-remote-switching.6938/#post-73365

It looks like he will be able to directly wire the Chargery output to the control pin on the Samlex (No SSR in between). I believe there are other devices that a can also use the signal directly.

Note: Victron specifically says there must be no potential applied to the control pins, so an SSR would be needed for Victron.

Yes, victron remote control requires an SSR. Should have stated that, oops. Absolutely true

Very cool that samlex works with direct 12V as signal

 

[Steve_S]

Some things can be done when you have ONE Battery Pack and ONE BMS but things change the moment you get more than One Pack & One BMS.
Some folks Inverter ONLY (no charge capability) Maybe they have an SCC, maybe not and use a Grid AC -> DC Charger to charge their battery packs.

If you have 3 packs in a bank attached to an Inverter, you certainly won't have one pack tell the inverter to stop inverting while the other two sit and twiddle their electrons... So now you need an "arbitrator" to read the data from the BMS' and the control devices (SCC & Inverter , Inverter/Charger) externally and play traffic cop in between everything. A Raspberry Pi with ModBus RS232/485 Interfacing can manage it but not everyone is up to the task and there is no generic system out there anyone can just plug in (yet).

I run with a Samlex EVO-4024, it can take signals to stop charging as well as stop inverting. (PAGE-60 EVO-4024 Manual for example) It can communicate with MODBUS or CANBUS (requires NDA to get access to those interfaces). As far as I am aware, all of the EVO family can do so and apparently the PST family can as well with limits. Samlex is not unique in this as most Tir-1 products have such interfacing available to them. Even many Tier-2 products but NO Tier-3 Value stuff does (although a couple seems to have some interfacing now which is recent).

If someone has Constructive Criticisms with possible solutions or workarounds for certain situations / use cases or in general, you should contact Jason Directly through the company website e-mail. Thinking of Filter-guy's comments with diagrams for example.
1) State the problem you see in simple clean English terms.
2) Offer up the solution you may have, again in simple clean English terms.
3) Offer diagrams or part numbers / components (links to same would be good) that you believe will do as suggested.
4) One previous poster (sorry forget who atm) mentioned something about modifying the Delay Board to handle more things, in regards to types of relays that could be used and how... THIS WAS BRILLIANT ! and should be forwarded to Jason directly. BTW FACTOID: The Delay Board was developed because of Jimmy at https://www.azlithium.com/ HE is the one who did some of the video's, like the balancing one and the BMS to Nissan Leaf assembly etc... Good idea and Jason @ Chargery went and made it available...

* clean english terms. = no slang, no colloquialisms, no short cuts or abbreviations like LOL , LMAO or any nonsense. Remember that the English will be translated to Chinese and we all know that translators screw up too easily, so keep the language simple, chatter at minimum and stick to the point. DO NOT send him an email that "This is broken or sucks, fix it" without anything else, that will go directly to spam bin.

Jasons EMail : jasonwang3a AT 163.com (broken up to prevent spambots)
* don't bother if all you want to do is complain, be rude and offer no suggestion or ideas that are feasible or practical.

BTW: a Ponderance for SOME.
Some folks may be in a position to shut off inverters and have no power. Some of us are OFF GRID (increasing daily) and this isn't an option but our systems can auto-start a genset & use the Inverter to charge the batteries on crappy hazy cold & miserable winter days ! (Not everyone lives in Nevada or California eh !) So you know, there are those of us on battery power 7/24/365 and depend on it to be there (more dependable than Big Power Co is too).

 

[solardad]

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Standby consumption of most FET based BMS is .2 mA. That is really tiny. Why mess with these relays?

@Will Prowse I am still in the market for a 'final' bms solution but the reason I am not using my ANT anymore is that the max charge supported, 50a. I normally charge at twice that amount. It looks like the one you linked to also is limited to 50a.

Is there a way around that for ANT or Smart BMS options? I have not found any outside of Daly.

 

[FilterGuy]

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

I would not use a Chargery with relays.

The primary reason I would consider the Chargery is for an application where I want to control the charge source and Discharge source directly rather than use a FET based BMS. As an example, I have a design I am working on where my charge controller and the Inverter can be controlled by a 12 V signal. This allows me to use the Chargery signals to control the two devices and I don't have to worry about de-rating a FET based BMS.
In this particular case, the user wants a SOC display as well so I can use the Chargery display for that function.

Using a Chargery is not significantly better or worse than a FET based BMS for this application. Right now I am planning to use the Chargery but I keep going back and forth on which way to go.

I Wish Chargery worked better for 12V systems. Finding a good 4S Fet Based BMS with low temp disconnect that can handle more than 120A is proving very difficult (or very expensive).

 

[cass3825]

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something?

For me, it's not a single setting or single special feature, but a combination of features:

• 48V/16S compatibility and hardwired serial comms
• selectable top/bottom/both balancing
• Jason is actively engaged in continuous product development, and listens to customer requests
• The chargery is the best fit for my system, at a great price

 

[FilterGuy]

I view the Chargery as just another option, but it is not the only option. If it fits well with what I am trying to do with a particular system design, I will use it. If it does not fit well, I will look elsewhere. Getting a mindset of 'this is best' can blind you to better alternatives.

 

[GMB]

@Will Prowse I am still in the market for a 'final' bms solution but the reason I am not using my ANT anymore is that the max charge supported, 50a. I normally charge at twice that amount. It looks like the one you linked to also is limited to 50a. View attachment 12539

Is there a way around that for ANT or Smart BMS options? I have not found any outside of Daly.

I've been looking into the Electrodacus SBMS0 and on page 16 of the user manual it states, "The max charge current can be set between 10A minimum and 600A max for SBMS0 ."

I am new to the BMS game so I'm still somewhat confused on how to proceed, but this may be an option. I too charge at 100 amps, so need something to support that and still be within a reasonable price and not super confusing to set up and work with. They are $159 each (Canadian dollars, so about $115 US dollars). Will did a video on them previously here.

Edit - appears my Giandel 4000 watt, 24 volt inverter does not work with the Electrodacus, so that sucks...

 

[Steve_S]

I would not use a Chargery with relays.

The primary reason I would consider the Chargery is for an application where I want to control the charge source and Discharge source directly rather than use a FET based BMS. As an example, I have a design I am working on where my charge controller and the Inverter can be controlled by a 12 V signal. This allows me to use the Chargery signals to control the two devices and I don't have to worry about de-rating a FET based BMS.
In this particular case, the user wants a SOC display as well so I can use the Chargery display for that function.

Using a Chargery is not significantly better or worse than a FET based BMS for this application. Right now I am planning to use the Chargery but I keep going back and forth on which way to go.

I Wish Chargery worked better for 12V systems. Finding a good 4S Fet Based BMS with low temp disconnect that can handle more than 120A is proving very difficult (or very expensive).

Then give up using a BMS and go it in the rough without any last ditch safeties... What the heck it's just batteries & money which everyone can chuck out the door easy peasy ! WHY Have a BMS that cannot shut things down if something goes wrong ? Here's an idea, nail all the doors & windows on your house shut to prevent burglars... Or why bother installing Lug Nuts on the wheels of your car, they are only there to attach the wheels & keep them on, no safety reasons at all... Without RELAYS there is no point, it would show you cell voltage and do passive balancing which can be done with a simple battery monitor and no time wasted on BMS anything.

Seriously... some of the stuff posted is just .... oivey !
This has become absurd, seriously absurd.

 

[Craig]

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Then give up using a BMS and go it in the rough without any last ditch safeties... What the heck it's just batteries & money which everyone can chuck out the door easy peasy ! WHY Have a BMS that cannot shut things down if something goes wrong ? Here's an idea, nail all the doors & windows on your house shut to prevent burglars... Or why bother installing Lug Nuts on the wheels of your car, they are only there to attach the wheels & keep them on, no safety reasons at all... Without RELAYS there is no point, it would show you cell voltage and do passive balancing which can be done with a simple battery monitor and no time wasted on BMS anything.

Seriously... some of the stuff posted is just .... oivey !
This has become absurd, seriously absurd.

He isn't saying to use the batteries unprotected. But to use the Chargery to controll the SCC and inverter directly. This is how I do it with my Midnite classic and my samlex EVO. I do not use the AC charging with the EVo but if I did I would never expect for LVD as the AC charging should never allow battery to reach a LVD situation