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Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

HighTechLab said:
They are a publicly traded company...I'd guess the investors looked at their debt (we're talking north of $40,000,000) they said "oh we need more profit, go raise the prices".

In my opinion that's a good way to run a company into the ground.

In business there are two ways to bring profit. If your customers are willing to pay higher prices, you can increase prices thereby profit margin...but that's not this market whatsoever. You can make more money lowering your prices and running higher volume.

If you get 30% of 10 order for $1000 you have $3000.
If you get 20% of 50 orders for $800 you have $8000.

If your competition is selling for $850 and everyone knows it, chances are you may not have even those 10 orders...but if you stay competitive, you can win more customers over.

Part of something is always better than all of nothing.
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Your numbers don't really add up. Yes, you do get more profit, but not that extreme.
In your first example, your cost for the item is $700. That doesn't change, unless you are factoring in your buying power with volume.
For the second example then, either your % or order $ has to change. For the same item, you would be getting 12.5% for an $800 sell for $5000, not $8000, or you would have to sell 50 at $860 to get $8000.

Yes, I get your point, just saying.
 
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fafrd said:
If we use your material cost of $11K for 55kWh or $0.20/Wh, my 120% threshold would be $0.24/Wh or $13,200.

A 5.1kWh EG4 costs $1400 today and 10.8 of them would cost $15,100.
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Another factor is whether you consider Grade B cells comparable to EG4. At 18650BatteryStore, Grade B CATL cells are about 20% cheaper than Grade A EVE cells (on a per ah basis). I can do 0.20/Wh with Grade A cells (or what 18650 battery sells as Grade A). Even less with Grade B.

Another issue is maintaining a battery over the long term. If anything breaks in the EG4, good luck "fixing" it. With a DIY, you can replace a failed component. May be tricky replacing an individual cell, but it is doable.
 
HRTKD said:
I used to say that my 560Ah of DIY cells (4s2p) would cost $6000 for an equivalent set of Battleborn batteries. But their heated 100Ah 12v battery now has a list price of $899 with a sale price of $820. So now it's less than $5000. That's some progress, but Battleborn is the high water mark for off the shelf LiFePO4.
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It at least is going in the right direction .. I picked up 4 more new ( not B stock or blems) 100 amp 12v directly from BB for about 750- 775 ( I forget exactly ) apiece back in Feb on a sale event…free shipping…. They had another sale about 2 - 3 weeks ago I think… I passed on that event , but who knows what the fall could bring.?
 
I think the OP has a point in that prices dropping for OTS batteries will in some ways affect the DIY community. But, there are many factors that drive the DIY community. For me, my whole project is DIY, so making my own batteries makes sense. I need batteries that will communicate with my inverter, which limits my choices of OTS. I'm putting in 600AH of batteries but don't want a rack. I know every component that will be in my battery, and the quality of those components. I think most people build because an affordable option doesn't exist for their needs. I think that will always exist. So, I don't think DIY is doomed, I just think it may not continue to grow.
 
I wonder how these current OTS 100ah discount batteries actually pull Advertised AH/Whr.

What’s the point of $/whr if these batteries are only pulling 80% capacity after a few 100 cycles?

That video linked a few posts backed showed 2p4s 60ah pouch cells but advertised 300ah?!??
 
I used to DIY S-100 boards for a computer. 40 years ago. I wire-wrapped, but there were also PCB you could populate. Assembled boards cost 10x what parts costs.

Today, components often cost more than assembled products.

There will be a crossover at some point.

If I was building a LiFePO4 battery, welded busbars between cells would be very attractive.

What I'm seeing today is 280 Ah cells let you DIY cheaper than server rack, and server rack is 1/2 the price of BYD ready to plug in to HV SMA inverters (I haven't looked as close at 48V batteries from BYD.) I am curious about what BMS to use if I DIY a 400V battery for SMA. REC can do up to 128s, but they identify a 16s BMS for Sunny Island. I don't know what is needed or Sunny Boy Storage or the new Hybrid (not yet released, but there is a European model already.) I've emailed REC, but they won't answer.
 
Tulex said:
I know every component that will be in my battery, and the quality of those components.
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I have about 40 years experience doing wiring on aircraft in the navy then a variery of 12v projects in competition car audio and customizing cars. When I saw videos showing the guts of low end chinese lifepo4 batteries I figured Id build my own, even if the cost worked out higher. Not everyone would.
I kind of chuckled when I saw posts here lamenting the lack of sources for flexible buss bars. I had a couple dozen feet of surplus braided ground strap and a hammer, home depot has copper pipe couplers, and I like the pretty colors made when all the above meets a propane torch and solder. Add a little heat shrink and whats the issue?

BTW solder is always falling out of favor in production facilities around the world both because of environmental and employee health reasons. Industries always make excuses and come up with silly reasons why they only crimp terminals etc. Or worse use lead free solder.

I dont have to play those silly games when I DIY something.
 
Options keep expanding and this is always good.

"I have some exciting news to share with you that we will have prebuit 51.2V 280Ah solar lifepo4 battery pack in Houston stock after 2-3 weeks:


We also will have 20pcs DIY boxes with newer 48V 200A Bluetooth BMS built-in in Houston soon, if you have needs welcome to contact me as fast as you due the quantities is very limited!!

Thank you

Amy"
---
 
Quattrohead said:
Options keep expanding and this is always good.

"I have some exciting news to share with you that we will have prebuit 51.2V 280Ah solar lifepo4 battery pack in Houston stock after 2-3 weeks:


We also will have 20pcs DIY boxes with newer 48V 200A Bluetooth BMS built-in in Houston soon, if you have needs welcome to contact me as fast as you due the quantities is very limited!!

Thank you

Amy"
---
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these are rebadged seplos mason 280 kits with the seplos bms....
same as the boxes dan delivers, just higher amphours..
 
For me if the battery is for a system that doesn't require ul listing I will probably build my own just because I can. If I was to put a back up battery on my house I would buy a UL listed battery because it is required.
 
fafrd said:
Never seen this nonsense on Amazon before but thanks for the correction Horsefly.

This $250 with shipping included is (barely) the new low-water mark ($0.1953/Wh) but essentially just reinforces the low-water mark that was already established last month: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLLVRTM...d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9kZXRhaWwp13NParams

($680 for 3456Ah = $0.1968/Wh)
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Oh, it wasn't a correction, I was just having fun with the fact that it's on Amazon for 2 different prices, but same total with shipping.
 
Tulex said:
Oh, it wasn't a correction, I was just having fun with the fact that it's on Amazon for 2 different prices, but same total with shipping.
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I apologize for repeatedly missing these new Amazon delivery charges - I thought it was $250 including shipping and missed the $30.

The June low water mark stands unchallenged (so far).
 
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Huh? I think you mixed me up with Tulex.
I was just pointing out how badly Kuboka ripped off the Kubota name and color.

I just wish raw cell prices would drop in line with these pre-built, diy ftw.
 
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