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Beware of Amazon's class t fuses

Another example of proper lugs, and being able to make your own custom cable/terminations are key.

Not saying anything about this particular build - I dunno what he used, just replying to this comment

Proper lugs with correct wall thickness made with proper crimpers without major wings and quality wire that is actually the size marked.

i.e. spec thickness on the lugs and a crimper other than the AMZCNC brand which mismarks their metric dies as AWG.
Better crimper is Temco brand or the powerwerx brand, but they are spendy if you aren't planning a complete solar install and going to use them all the time.
 
Can you tell who them manufacturer of the fuse is? from the numbers I can't find a current vs time curve chart for it specifically? I wanted to see if that matches the standard JLLN body style fuse. All I can read on the amazon ad is HFS21J for a part number and they didn't show the other side.

Screen Shot 2024-06-12 at 10.15.19 AM.png Screen Shot 2024-06-12 at 10.17.37 AM.png
 
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View attachment 221545 View attachment 221547

That was the pre-arc timing curve, but I got what I wanted from the link. Thanks.

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When 6 x rated current is applied it blows in 0.01 sec -

The chart isn't like the western version where a spread is indicated - i.e. a similar standard class T from littlefuse would indicate 0.001 to 0.01 sec. They also flipped the x/y axis making it harder to read for me, but seems like all the ones from Asia do that.

So, seems similar but wouldn't be up to snuff for a grid tie because it doesn't list a UL or CE listing but in all other respects it seems good.

Kinda like the Chint blade fuses I got off Albia - good quality but only has a deutch lab listing so wouldn't pass in the US. The US version is 20 times the cost of the Chint.
 
Stay away from these "lawnmower" cables for continuous duty/solar applications.

It appears the OP used one for the top cable. The fuse itself is probably fine, just installed improperly on a cheap holder at that.

My theory is - Over time heat and corrosion caught up and made for a very high resistance connection both with the fuse holder stud and the cable end.
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Stay away from these "lawnmower" cables for continuous duty/solar applications.

It appears the OP used one for the top cable. The fuse itself is probably fine, just installed improperly on a cheap holder at that.

My theory is - Over time heat and corrosion caught up and made for a very high resistance connection both with the fuse holder stud and the cable end.
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I do not see where the OP said he was using automotive cables but 4 pages in I may have missed a post.


In general automotive cables are either made from CCA, tinned copper stranded cable like they use in boats, or just plain copper and let it corrode because it will be out of warranty before it does.

I've had to cut the end off the one that came in the 24 year old toyota because they did the silly steel band on the post and it rusted away.

In any case if it is the right size all that matters is the cross section area of copper and if the crimps are good. From a factory I would assume they are good.

What I am curious about is if the OP just puts the same fuse and holder back in and cleaned up does everything run normal and cool? If so then that is probably the only issue.
 
I do not see where the OP said he was using automotive cables but 4 pages in I may have missed a post.


In general automotive cables are either made from CCA, tinned copper stranded cable like they use in boats, or just plain copper and let it corrode because it will be out of warranty before it does.

I've had to cut the end off the one that came in the 24 year old toyota because they did the silly steel band on the post and it rusted away.

In any case if it is the right size all that matters is the cross section area of copper and if the crimps are good. From a factory I would assume they are good.

What I am curious about is if the OP just puts the same fuse and holder back in and cleaned up does everything run normal and cool? If so then that is probably the only issue.
He'll need to grind down the ends of the lugs. Then they'll actually fit next to the fuse instead of having the washers as shims to clear the body of the fuse. Fuse holder is all melted away I think.
 
I do not see where the OP said he was using automotive cables but 4 pages in I may have missed a post.


In general automotive cables are either made from CCA, tinned copper stranded cable like they use in boats, or just plain copper and let it corrode because it will be out of warranty before it does.

I've had to cut the end off the one that came in the 24 year old toyota because they did the silly steel band on the post and it rusted away.

In any case if it is the right size all that matters is the cross section area of copper and if the crimps are good. From a factory I would assume they are good.

What I am curious about is if the OP just puts the same fuse and holder back in and cleaned up does everything run normal and cool? If so then that is probably the only issue.

It's a hodgepodge of automotive cables and wire from Home Depot. Some of the original crimps are on the cables and some are mine.

I'm still looking for a source that explains why automotive cables are not great for solar batteries. It seems to me that if the wire size is adequate and the crimps are of good quality then there shouldn't be a problem using it for a battery bank.

I do have two other fuse/fuse holders that are the same. I'm a little reluctant to try an experiment that might lead to a fire though.
 
I do not see where the OP said he was using automotive cables but 4 pages in I may have missed a post.


In general automotive cables are either made from CCA, tinned copper stranded cable like they use in boats, or just plain copper and let it corrode because it will be out of warranty before it does.

I've had to cut the end off the one that came in the 24 year old toyota because they did the silly steel band on the post and it rusted away.

In any case if it is the right size all that matters is the cross section area of copper and if the crimps are good. From a factory I would assume they are good.

What I am curious about is if the OP just puts the same fuse and holder back in and cleaned up does everything run normal and cool? If so then that is probably the only issue.
See post 14 and 23.

I think most of these types of cables lie about their makeup. Im thinking its some type of blend of crap metals and a littlebitofcopper, they definitely dont hold up to the gauge they claim to be.

And yes, the crimped terminal ends are steel. That in itself is enough reason to stay away.
 
I'm still looking for a source that explains why automotive cables are not great for solar batteries. It seems to me that if the wire size is adequate and the crimps are of good quality then there shouldn't be a problem using it for a battery bank.
Because automotive-grade cables tend to be designed for intermittent use, tend to be dirt-cheap, and there are no standards.
I'm guess some of them are well manufactured, but there's no way to tell without cutting them open.
The copper-clad aluminum scam is pervasive, particularly on Amazon.

The #1 objective of any cable you buy or crimp yourself is minimum resistance, from the cable, to the crimps, to the fuse holder.
Because I^2R heating needs to be minimized everywhere, or you will get the result on your FLIR.

Because this is a quadratic formula, every time you double the current you multiply the power dissipation (heat) by 4.
The difference between 40A and 80A is 4x the power dissipation.
It can take you by surprise.

I do have two other fuse/fuse holders that are the same. I'm a little reluctant to try an experiment that might lead to a fire though.
We are up to 5 pages of comments because none of us wants a fire either (for you, or us, or people who read this later).
We take this stuff seriously because bad things have happened.
 
Also, “Usually I tighten these things until I think I'm causing damage.” will result in unpredictable contact between the lug and mating surface.
 
Since I have everyone's attention let me ask you all your opinion on something.

Nylon lock nuts. Good or bad for this application?

Before this event I was thinking of putting lock washers on every connection to prevent anything from coming loose but now I think that's probably a bad idea.
 
Since I have everyone's attention let me ask you all your opinion on something.

Nylon lock nuts. Good or bad for this application?

Before this event I was thinking of putting lock washers on every connection to prevent anything from coming loose but now I think that's probably a bad idea.

Bad choice - nylock will loosen over time

Best choice is a serated flange nut - it will stay in place and not loosen off.
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And, if you don't have a torque wrench or screwdriver you need to buy one and use it - 3 squeeks is not a good value


What crimper do you have? If it leaves big wings and is the AMZCNC brand that is because the dies are mismarked. They are metric marked in AWG most likely.
My goto crimper is the Temco

If you don't have a good crimper you can get cables made to length at



To answer your other question - Sorry - a Novel from here on out

House wire is typically THHN -
  • Course stranded and not very bendable
  • Sheath is typically vinyl
  • Most times it is pure copper but aluminum is available
  • Usually rated at 90c or less

Automotive wire -
  • It is about twice as fine as THHN and more bendable
  • Sheath is a mix of vinyl and other coatings to resist chemicals
  • Good ones are made from copper strands that are tinned then combined into the wire
  • Most are just copper strands
  • Really cheap ones are CCA (copper clad aluminum)
  • Usually 105 or higher because of where it is used.

Battery wire -
  • Much finer than Automotive battery wire easy to bend
  • Always pure copper
  • In marine use each strand is tinned before combining into the final wire.
  • Usually 105c but can be 90c up to several hundred degrees C
  • Sheath - chemical resistant and varies with application

Welding wire -
  • Super fine wire and very bendable, even tha large stuff
  • Sheath is typically a rubberized coating that resists damage when you walk on it or drag it across and around a shop floor.
  • Always pure copper
  • Never tinned inside it
  • Always rated at 105c or higher

PV wire -
  • Fine stranded and super bendable
  • Sheath is UV resistant
  • Typically in 14 to 10 AWG
  • Should be pure copper

There are MANY types of wire - for our purposes most people recommend welding wire because of the bendability and the higher temperature rating.

Higher temp rating allows for more current without overheating
All wire we use in the US will be rated at least 600v

For current carrying capacity all the matters is the cross-section area of the wire - 1 strand or 3000 strands and higher it all amounts to the same capacity when naked.

The sheath insulated and prevents arcing along with protecting the wire itself. It will have a temperature rating on it and many times other ratings for special use like under water, direct burial, etc.

Temperature ratings are in free air where the heat can bleed off while the air circulates. You put it in conduit, bury it, enclose it in a building, use it on a roof or attached to the side of a building where it is in the sun you have to de-rate it for the conditions.

The longer the distance the less current it can carry because of resistance in wire.

Conduit - in the US - to protect the wire and structure
  • DC wires must be in metal conduit when in a dwelling, on a roof, attached to a dwelling.
  • When outside and not attached to a building the conduit can be PVC.
  • When pulling wires in conduit it MUST be all done at once - no adding another strand later without pulling the whole bundle and repulling it.
  • You can't mix AC and DC wires in the same raceway or conduit - MUST be separated.

Common usage -
  • Welding wire (also battery wire) - between the battery and the inverter or SCC (solar charge controller)
  • THHN - between the inverter and the electrical panel and in the house, also between combiner box and SCC
  • PV wire - between panes and SCC or combiner box.
Pretty much automotive wire is not used unless you can't get the other. Not that it can't be, just isn't common practice. If you use it you can't listen to their stated ampacity, instead you have to look at the temperature and AWG to get a current carrying capacity.
 
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You can't mix AC and DC wires in the same raceway or conduit - MUST be separated.

Learning something everyday here.

This will be hard to correct. I have 1" conduit buried in concrete that carries 120V AC and 12V DC. Cannot really add a second conduit now. Probably have to give up one of the two. It has actually worked without issues but I googled the reasons why they should be separated.
 
Learning something everyday here.

This will be hard to correct. I have 1" conduit buried in concrete that carries 120V AC and 12V DC. Cannot really add a second conduit now. Probably have to give up one of the two. It has actually worked without issues but I googled the reasons why they should be separated.


Just in the NEC -

The reason is electromagnetic coupling - having it in the same conduit means the AC can couple to the DC lines and cause interferance and voltage higher than expected on the DC lines when working... i.e. zap zap even when you think power is off.

Without the AC I am not sure how the DC would couple across. @Hedges could tell us since he sees magnetic fields.

Either way it takes current flow in one wire to couple to the other wire.

Sounds like you will be running a new piece of conduit around the building - DC in/on a dwelling is in metal conduit.
 
Either way it takes current flow in one wire to couple to the other wire.

I think this is what saved me. This conduit goes to concrete columns, each column has both a 120V AC outlet and a 12V DC outlet (cigarette lighter and / or USB 5V).

Due to them being in columns, I have never plugged a phone in there. It's just not a practical location for phone harging. So, no current on DC.
The AC outlets have powered tools or a dehumidifier, maybe 10A tops.

And yes, the outlets are side by side in one box, I had concerns already when I did that.
There's a green LED below the USB ports.. which is off, since I pulled the fuse for this circuit for now.

20240612_113919.jpg

This 12V outlet is active, and in regular use:

20240612_114025.jpg
 
Nearly impossible as everything (floor, walls, columns, ceiling is poured concrete).

Oh, and the conduit is 100% PVC. Some may even be white PVC (spare water pipes).

But it's not a dwelling.
not a dwelling and not inspected just leave it, but realize you can have voltage on the DC line even when disconnected.
 
What is the "regular use" for the 12V DC? If it is USB, just buy those outlets that offer USB from the AC being fed into the outlet?

Getting off topic.. but..

The structure is predominantly wired DC. One of those 12V outlets powers a mini-fridge. A water dispenser on 5V USB. A 12V TV. Etc.

There are only 3 AC circuits, one for a water heater, one outlet in a kitchen type area (has never been used), and one circuit for 2 outlets in columns (was useful during construction).

This is my study if a dwelling could be completely running on DC. We are talking about 1000sqft.
 
Better crimper is Temco brand or the powerwerx brand, but they are spendy if you aren't planning a complete solar install and going to use them all the time.
Temco sells a hammer crimper for battery lugs for the princely sum of $16.95:
 
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Temco sells a hammer crimper for battery lugs for the princely sum of $16.95.

Yeah - there are a few downsides to all hammer crimpers - opinons vary - this is mine
  • Ya have to get the feel for how hard to hit - a small 3lb sledge on a concrete or anvil base and it takes a few hard whacks. The pitch of the sound changes when done
  • No size number on the outside which is required if you are following code and being inspected
  • They can leave voids at the 'wings' - not water tight
  • They can damage some of the wires that are not cold welded at the center
  • They can bend the the lug up in the middle if you aren't careful
You can take care of some with heatshrink with glue in it - but not my favorite
 

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