Electric Companies slowly taking back control
- Thread starter Tony Scott
- Start date
That never occurred to me.
One solution might be to give out free power during those peak hours to customers that have battery banks. It would encourage use of energy storage systems on a smaller, residential, scale.
I could even imagine that they would sell the stored electricity from your batteries to your neighbors at night / no sun days.
tigerwillow1
Solar Enthusiast
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Maybe it's a good article in the big picture, but as soon as I saw "kilowatts of energy" it made me wonder what else in it is wrong.
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
I'm off-grid and use ATSs to switch back and forth - so I use grid but don't send any out.
I've been building up my system to produce about 75% of what we use around the house (13kw PV, 24,000w of inverter, and 81kwh battery). This leaves me with a steady power company bill all year around - e.g. hiding in plain sight. If we lost grid we can live (pretty much) normally on the 75% provided by the solar system. Would have to turn off the hot tub, and sequence use of big things (dryer, oven, cooktop) instead of all at once. The 4 winter months are a problem, only 30% of what we need power wise - heat is the issue - still working on that
I've been building up my system to produce about 75% of what we use around the house (13kw PV, 24,000w of inverter, and 81kwh battery). This leaves me with a steady power company bill all year around - e.g. hiding in plain sight. If we lost grid we can live (pretty much) normally on the 75% provided by the solar system. Would have to turn off the hot tub, and sequence use of big things (dryer, oven, cooktop) instead of all at once. The 4 winter months are a problem, only 30% of what we need power wise - heat is the issue - still working on that
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
And let EV owners charge for free. I would pay a reasonable monthly fee for that kind of pricing.
As long as you’re also paying their monthly Grid Benefits Charge, they’d have no reason to come after you.
If you tell them you’ve decommissioned your solar system but your consumption doesn’t change (because you continue to make use of it), that might be another story…
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
What do you mean by power plans could have been built?
If you means power plants, then that's what all these smaller unintegrated pockets of regional supply have now, local generation (often very dirty generation although in more remote regions there are increasingly solar PV and battery systems being used to create mini-grids).
But ultimately power still has to get from the supply source (power generator) to the location of demand (homes and businesses) and that requires a transmission network, however large or small.
Connecting grids together to form larger grids provides many many benefits - it enables far greater resilience and stability and enables more distributed supply, right down to householder level. Indeed distributed rooftop solar PV is now the 3rd largest supplier of electrical energy in the Australian grid, and this would not be possible without integrated transmission networks.
At some point for a region it may be too costly to remain connected to the grid (with reliability) and that's where the new emerging microgrids are good options, e.g. what they are now doing in some Western Australian communities:
Microgrids - keeping the power on for regional WA customers
What is a microgrid system? Learn how Western Power is connecting regional communities in Western Australia with microgrids and improving power reliability.
Places more remote again need local generation and that has traditionally been diesel generators. Expensive and dirty and reliant on fuel supplies which may or may not be able to get there, especially in flood events. Solar/wind/battery tech is changing that paradigm.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
I built my off-grid system for backup but remain on the grid and have a decent sized grid-tied PV system (11kW) as well which saves us over $3k/year.
We could operate for long periods without the grid if we really needed to although our main home would be without aircon, but the granny flat can run their (smaller efficient split system). Unpleasant on a hot humid Summer day but we have a pool and fans and eventually I'm hoping to have one section of our home with a more efficient aircon unit we could use.
Being rural we get regular outages, and while no where near as reliable as the grid was when I lived in the city, by and large it's still pretty good. The more remote you are the lower the reliability.
We had one of those earlier this year. 4WD hit a pole, same one that got hit in a previous outage. And honestly when you look at the pole you have to wonder how a vehicle could even get close to it!
In Australia we have new retail plans emerging (and they will soon be very common) called "Demand Plans". There are plans with much lower general use consumption tariffs (be they flat rate or time of use tariffs per kWh) but have a peak demand charge based on peak 30-min power draw each month.
These are perfect for those who can limit peak power power during the designated peak period. If you operate with a battery system and limit any grid draw via your own system's set up (e.g. grid battery charging is restricted to a low current draw, or at least limit it during peak period) then you can save quite a bit of money while still having the security of the grid being there if needed.
Let's face it, home inverters and other tech will fail at some stage and you'll need another source of energy while your own grid is offline being repaired/replaced. Firing up a backup generator for days might be fine in rural/regional setting but in a suburban area that's not going to go down well.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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If you put in an AC coupled battery inverter, and it can control output of GT PV by means of frequency shift, it will power the A/C and everything else quite nicely. I have similar size system with 4x SI-6048US (two would have been sufficient) and 400 Ah 48V AGM (SMA recommends 1100 AH for 11kW AC coupled PV but I haven't had a problem.)
If off-grid or otherwise no more than 6.7 kW of GT PV feeding through its 56A relay, one SI-6048US would be sufficient (needs 120/240V transformer.) For instance, if half or all GT PV was normally connected straight to grid and manually switched onto SI when grid down, so not feeding through relay, only one needed (it can manage GT PV with 2x its wattage rating.)
If 220V European SI model is used in 220V single-phase system, only one needed.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
My plan is to avoid the Grid Benefits Charge by cancelling my NEM agreement in fourteen years unless the economics change.
Another story? I prefer to base my speculation on current statutes and legislative history.
I plan on self consuming my solar generation or storing it in batteries for later use in order to reduce my consumption. The proposed Successor Tariff encourages that. Economics will determine whether I can do that more economically than purchasing energy from PG&E. The building code only requires me to have a grid connection. Nothing in that statute requires me to use it at any particular time or in any particular amount. I am happy to pay a reasonable fixed fee to be able to use the grid as backup. In the winter my two EVs will probably require some usage as well as some other devices such as heat pumps especially when solar production is lower. It is a risk I am willing to take and economics will drive my decisions not some belief that PG&E has more authority than the statutes have given them.
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Texas gave free overnight power during times of abundant wind power.
It’s true that you are on the trailing edge of this transition to the Successor Tariff, so all available paths should be well-trodden by the time you are facing these decisions.
It’ll be interesting to watch whether other legacy solar customers are successful at going to an off-grid-with-grid-backup configuration so that they pay only for the energy they consume or a minimum monthly bill applied to all customers without paying a monthly Grid Benefits Charge.
I’ve looked at the math a bit and it’s going to be prohibitively expensive to try to offset consumption through winter months (November through February), so paying full retail rates for 2-3 months equivalent per year (17% to 25% full-year consumption) seems like about the minimum that will make sense…
Tony Scott
New Member
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What do you mean by power plans could have been built?
If you means power plants, then that's what all these smaller unintegrated pockets of regional supply have now, local generation (often very dirty generation although in more remote regions there are increasingly solar PV and battery systems being used to create mini-grids).
But ultimately power still has to get from the supply source (power generator) to the location of demand (homes and businesses) and that requires a transmission network, however large or small.
Connecting grids together to form larger grids provides many many benefits - it enables far greater resilience and stability and enables more distributed supply, right down to householder level. Indeed distributed rooftop solar PV is now the 3rd largest supplier of electrical energy in the Australian grid, and this would not be possible without integrated transmission networks.
At some point for a region it may be too costly to remain connected to the grid (with reliability) and that's where the new emerging microgrids are good options, e.g. what they are now doing in some Western Australian communities:
Microgrids - keeping the power on for regional WA customers
What is a microgrid system? Learn how Western Power is connecting regional communities in Western Australia with microgrids and improving power reliability.www.westernpower.com.au
Places more remote again need local generation and that has traditionally been diesel generators. Expensive and dirty and reliant on fuel supplies which may or may not be able to get there, especially in flood events. Solar/wind/battery tech is changing that paradigm.
yes I meant “Plants”. With all that sun you guys should have been on that path a long time ago. How are you handling the recycling of the turbine Blades and battery’s?What do you mean by power plans could have been built?
If you means power plants, then that's what all these smaller unintegrated pockets of regional supply have now, local generation (often very dirty generation although in more remote regions there are increasingly solar PV and battery systems being used to create mini-grids).
But ultimately power still has to get from the supply source (power generator) to the location of demand (homes and businesses) and that requires a transmission network, however large or small.
Connecting grids together to form larger grids provides many many benefits - it enables far greater resilience and stability and enables more distributed supply, right down to householder level. Indeed distributed rooftop solar PV is now the 3rd largest supplier of electrical energy in the Australian grid, and this would not be possible without integrated transmission networks.
At some point for a region it may be too costly to remain connected to the grid (with reliability) and that's where the new emerging microgrids are good options, e.g. what they are now doing in some Western Australian communities:
Microgrids - keeping the power on for regional WA customers
What is a microgrid system? Learn how Western Power is connecting regional communities in Western Australia with microgrids and improving power reliability.
Places more remote again need local generation and that has traditionally been diesel generators. Expensive and dirty and reliant on fuel supplies which may or may not be able to get there, especially in flood events. Solar/wind/battery tech is changing that paradigm.
Tony Scott
New Member
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The fact you have to have a grid connection is troubling. The rules are fluid, most statutes are heavily influenced by the electric companies.
Good Article by Consumer Reports ledger companies in California pushing for grid solar grid
California proposes reducing incentives for rooftop solar
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — California regulators proposed major changes to the state’s booming residential solar industry Monday, including reducing the discounts homeowners with rooftop solar and storage systems get on their electric bills when they sell extra energy back to the power companies...ca.finance.yahoo.com
This is one reason why you should care, they can and will come for you
Florida woman living off the grid forced to connect to city utilities
A judge ruled that it's illegal to disconnect from the city's water systemwww.salon.com
Sewer bills are based off f water bills, so she was getting a free ride? What’s the concern?
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
You can do this now in parts of Australia with wholesale pass through plans, when the wholesale price goes sufficiently negative the full pass through price (including network/grid charges) is also negative.
There are also what are called "Solar Sponge" tariffs, where the cheapest electricity is 10am to 3pm.
Indeed in parts of the country now (South Australia), you can almost do without solar PV at all as the tariff structure is almost the same as having your own solar PV system + battery.
That would only send a signal to consumers to go out and buy batteries which then puts them in a worse position a few years time as those trying to justify their expensive home solar purchase and the reason for this thread.\
The widespread use of EVs equipped with V2G may change the above.
Tony Scott
New Member
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A country should control all of it‘s infrastructure.
They told her she had to connect to the grid, that is the problem. When Cathy’s run sewer and water lines they force people to connect and pay for having it done, this happens all over the country.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
I can but I have zero need to do that. It would cost a LOT more than just being a grid tied system. Batteries are still really expensive and not economically viable when the grid is available.
We are also 3-phase (Australia) with a 230V/400V system. Not operating any 3-phase equipment or appliances as yet, other than my 3-phase grid tied inverter (Fronius Symo). I have a couple of 3-phase outlets in the cave in case I need them, and perhaps one day I'll want a 22kW 3-phase EV charger.
No chance. We have 3 buildings / 2 dwellings to cover. Our biggest day was 144kWh and peak 5-min average power draw 13.5kW.
Have managed to not get quite that high since but 100kWh days can and do happen and 10kW draw doesn't require much. Had a 95kWh day just before Christmas and on same day our peak 5-min power draw was 11.5kW.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
It is not troubling for me. I understand it from a building safety standpoint.
I agree there are some grey areas. Only some of the rules have the effect of statutes and I have studied them long enough to the point that I understand what my options are. I firmly believe in the right to generate my own power as long as that is done in a safe manner and in conformance with the building codes. That right to generate power is clear to me and not one of the grey areas. I have spent the past fifty years interfacing with power companies in California while supervising over twenty million dollars worth of the construction. I am only speaking about my experience in California with the regulated Investor Owned Utilities. Municipal Utilities are another issue as are other states or countries.
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