Half price electric cars

[MTM98290]

No, I'm not like you lot. The future is actually important.

Then shouldn't we work for free market solutions that are actually superior? Should we not seek to improve civilization?

Bans, incentives and mandates are not driving the future into its best iteration.

It takes energy to change society. A society which expends it energy to things which make little difference but to increase the wealth of the richest .001% is bound to be inferior than one which comes to technological advancement more organically.

A society that is easily swayed with carrot and stick schemes with little concern to the actual impact is sure to be a more authoritarian society. We do not need top down rule to steer us in the direction of the central planning vision.

 

[gotbeans]

Then shouldn't we work for free market solutions that are actually superior? Should we not seek to improve civilization?

Bans, incentives and mandates are not driving the future into its best iteration.

It takes energy to change society. A society which expends it energy to things which make little difference but to increase the wealth of the richest .001% is bound to be inferior than one which comes to technological advancement more organically.

A society that is easily swayed with carrot and stick schemes with little concern to the actual impact is sure to be a more authoritarian society. We do not need top down rule to steer us in the direction of the central planning vision.

rockefeller already had a free market solution, create monopolies next to every business and buy up competition when they go broke.
so you shouldn't fear because microsoft, apple, amazon, google will save us apparently.

 

[MTM98290]

rockefeller already had a free market solution, create monopolies next to every business and buy up competition when they go broke.
so you shouldn't fear because microsoft, apple, amazon, google will save us apparently.

Crony capitalism is not the free market. Rockefeller was no free market capitalist, but under the system people had a rising standard of living and and relative security.

The merger of public and private power is facism, no matter who those entities are.

America was successful despite this un-capitalistic influence because of the freedom to choose which items to spend your momey on, even if Rockefeller made money on nearly every transaction, we still advanced over the long term.

No corporation/government is going to save us by unilateral bans and decrees against the systems which allow for abundant food, shelter, ability to travel freely.

 

[gotbeans]

A true free, unregulated, market turns into 1 company owning everything

 

[Checkthisout]

rockefeller already had a free market solution, create monopolies next to every business and buy up competition when they go broke.
so you shouldn't fear because microsoft, apple, amazon, google will save us apparently.

You don't think the global warming hoax is put forth to smurf money away from the petroleum sector and plow it into the financial sector?

 

[gotbeans]

You don't think the global warming hoax is put forth to smurf money away from the petroleum sector and plow it into the financial sector?

who cares, oil funded solar for first like 20 years of it's life and most of big oil owns the solar fields as well. They're not getting smurfed at all

exxon just bought denbury as well, to own the carbon capture. Next you're gonna be sad that the oil companies can't get enough of their own co2 or something?

 

[Bongbong]

Free market solutions? The free market has only one purpose and that is to make as much money as it possibly can. Negative externalities, like pollution, unless prohibited by law (and thus the voting public) is not a consideration. By making rules on what is and isn't allowed, the free market has some guidelines that all players have to follow.

Yes, with some (enforceable) guidelines free markets can do better, but that is not a given. I would not want private ownership of roads, nor would I want governments to build the cars to drive on them.

 

[gotbeans]

Free market solutions? The free market has only one purpose and that is to make as much money as it possibly can. Negative externalities, like pollution, unless prohibited by law (and thus the voting public) is not a consideration. By making rules on what is and isn't allowed, the free market has some guidelines that all players have to follow.

Yes, with some (enforceable) guidelines free markets can do better, but that is not a given. I would not want private ownership of roads, nor would I want governments to build the cars to drive on them.

We need to privatize electric so it stops staying stagnant for decades and prices raise 10000% with power outages like in texas

 

[Hedges]

It was the government which ordered the $10/kWh prices in Texas.
Because, they said, the free market wasn't working, and the market price was not correct.

 

[wattmatters]

What is the meaning of those capital "I" shaped error bars on the EV graphs?

From the linked item, the "I" bar range shows differences depending on the carbon intensity of the electricity used.

Notes​

The “High-GHG minerals” case assumes double the GHG emission intensity for battery minerals (70 kgCO2-eq/kWh compared to 35 kgCO2-eq/kWh in the base case; other assumptions are the same). The values are for a vehicle manufactured from today’s manufacturing lines assuming dynamic global average grid carbon intensity in the SDS (including transmissions, distribution and charging losses, weighted for mileage decay over a 20-year lifetime). The ranges shown for BEV represent cases for charging with a static low-carbon (50 gCO2-eq/kWh) and high-carbon electricity mix (800 gCO2-eq/kWh). Vehicle assumptions: 200 000 km lifetime mileage; ICE fuel economy 6.8 Lge/100 km; BEV fuel economy 0.19 kWh/km; BEV battery 40 kWh NMC622. NMC622 = nickel manganese cobalt in a 6:2:2 ratio. Lge = litre of gasoline-equivalent.

And considering them, is it true the energy and emissions are far outweighed by lower emissions to operate the vehicle?

Yes, on average it is.

Grid power emissions, on average, are typically lower than the worst case shown by those bars and grid energy is getting cleaner every year.

For instance, Australia is still a coal heavy grid and average emissions in 2023 were 592 kgCO₂e/MWh. Even so, lifetime emissions would be significantly lower than an equivalent ICEV.

Keep in mind grid emissions are also falling every year, so the gap widens.

Here coal power will have been replaced by solar and wind over the coming decade or so. We will drop to under 100 kgCO₂e/MWh, much closer to the lower end of that charts "I" bar range.

But my main point was to refute the notion that analysts have not taken into account the embedded emissions and energy cost of the battery in EVs. They do. Indeed it's a fairly well researched topic, as it is for fossil fuel consumption, with the primary exception being fugitive emissions, especially gas which have been chronically understated.

 

[G00SE]

What you describe is a series hybrid. Toyota's designs are parallel (mostly) hybrids. Parallel is more efficient - Toyota uses a simple planetary gear that's 98-99% efficient vs. the 85-90% efficient series hybrid generator --> inverter --> e-motor path. Parallel is also generally less expensive as the power electronics don't have to handle combined ICE+battery power and the motor/generators can do double duty. The only real advantage to series is design flexbility. You can put the engine/generator anywhere you like and snake wires all over to reach the e-motor. A parallel hybrid needs a pretty direct and preferably very short path to the drive wheels.

Well, that just destroys my assumption
I do appreciate the clarity, seems pretty neat. I need to dig more into that to better understand I suppose

 

[gotbeans]

It was the government which ordered the $10/kWh prices in Texas.
Because, they said, the free market wasn't working, and the market price was not correct.

The Electric Reliability Council isn't government, and yes the free market red government for the past 30 years there helped them with their request to raise prices.
Just like the gas prices for decades, other than added tax, unrelated to gov

 

[Checkthisout]

who cares, oil funded solar for first like 20 years of it's life and most of big oil owns the solar fields as well. They're not getting smurfed at all

exxon just bought denbury as well, to own the carbon capture. Next you're gonna be sad that the oil companies can't get enough of their own co2 or something?

I'm talking about financial institutions.

The idea is to make energy cost more so Goldman Sachs can make more money.

 

[MTM98290]

who cares, oil funded solar for first like 20 years of it's life and most of big oil owns the solar fields as well. They're not getting smurfed at all

exxon just bought denbury as well, to own the carbon capture. Next you're gonna be sad that the oil companies can't get enough of their own co2 or something?

Big oil had the foresight to invest where the gov/corp system was bound to spend its money.
They will do just fine no matter how society turns out.

 

[Bongbong]

Electricity is privatized in most countries, I don't know what it is like where you guys are. The grid should be treated as the road network, state owned, indirectly controlled through elected officials and anyone can sell to or buy from the net at any time of the day. This reminds me of this insane situation. In some parts Europe we already see negative electricity pricing when there is too much solar or wind, you could get paid to charge your car.

 

[gotbeans]

I'm talking about financial institutions.

The idea is to make energy cost more so Goldman Sachs can make more money.

electric has gone up ~3x in 40-50 years
gas has gone up 12x in 40-50 years

Big oil had the foresight to invest where the gov/corp system was bound to spend its money.
They will do just fine no matter how society turns out.

yep

Electricity is privatized in most countries,

yep and the reliability sucks

 

[time2roll]

It was the government which ordered the $10/kWh prices in Texas.
Because, they said, the free market wasn't working, and the market price was not correct.

As in whoops a power plant goes off line and creates a shortage and doubles the price for the 95% still working.
Our local gas company was caught manipulating supplies some years ago. Tripled the price of heat.

 

[wattmatters]

You must have missed the recent report that showed that due to accelerated tire wear EVs have significantly higher particulate emissions than ICE vehicles.

That's a problem with car obesity, not drivetrains.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Solar Is great until the sun don't shine (as we all know too well!). Wind, ehhhh, it is something, but wind doesn't always blow, questions about bird deaths, etc. But if you consider carbon to be the big boogie man I guess it is better..?

But I still can't imagine the country being 100% solar and wind. We cannot do Dec and Jan in many parts of the country only on solar, and Nov and Feb are tough. How do you expect to go totally solar and wind on a massive grid scale with that in mind?

 

[wattmatters]

Solar Is great until the sun don't shine (as we all know too well!). Wind, ehhhh, it is something, but wind doesn't always blow

It doesn't rain all the time either yet water comes out of the tap OK.