How to get solar when you can't afford it

[JeepHammer]

Full, partial or backside buried she wouldn’t like it so I couldn’t build it.

That's a YOU problem...

I like mine because it's DEAD QUIET, crazy efficient, multi-fuel, and very low maintance. It will be here, just as efficient, 100 years after I'm dead.

My wife likes it because its the place she gets to express herself, her job is button down... She's actually the crafty type, so there are a LOT of colors and atypical ideas in decoration.

I just hope the next 3 families that wind up here paying next to nothing appreciate the quirky mix of decorations...

 

[Nobodybusiness]

That's a YOU problem...

No shit.

 

[JeepHammer]

The math disagrees with you. Where I live in zone 3a Texas, going from code minimum r13 walls to even r1000 walls and roof will save less than $100 year. This of course assumes you have regular windows which are about r2 to r3.

Sealing your house air tight and using an erv would save approx $0 per year.

This is an extremely unpopular opinion but I'm ready to have this debate and can back it up with real numbers- code minimum plus solar(diy) is a far better value proposition than passivhaus or superinsulation

If I were a "Code" type, I wouldn't have done what I have...

And you seemed to miss the point "Codes" are absloute MINIMUMS. So I guess if you want the absloute minimum, you can go "Code" and nothing more.

What I saw in Texas, and everyplace else the grid goes out, the home is freezing or overheated in a few hours.
My home will never get below 63°F or above 80°F. We reached 80°F inside while the concrete was curing and there weren't any windows yet, about 95°-98°F outside temp...

Much easier to heat from 63°F or cool from 68°-70°F than 20s to 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
Is that in your "Code" book?

So there's that...

While we regularly see air temps in the 90°-100°F range... and we spend a lot of nights in the 20°F range, and below.

Ground temp is 63° to 68°F on average. How does that factor into "Code" exactly?

Ever hear of Geo-Thermal? Heat banking? It's fairly popular, you can Google it and learn about it pretty easy.

Ever hear of a Root Cellar?
Natural floor for high humidity, like unprocced produce.
I'm not a potato or squash, so I'm not the biggest fan of high humidity, so concrete floor...

Ever hear of underground cold/dry storage?
Your food has, there is a reason big companies turn rock mines, tunnels, etc into cold/dry storage.
They go deeper and get temps lower, better for food than people, but the same principal.

My humid and dry cold storage spaces for produce (farmer!) were my tests to see if it would work, and how I figured out how deep the house needed to be.
You know, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Norsemen/Vikings figured it out forever ago... It still works!

Insulation "Codes" didn't change any of that, just like gravity still works after the invention of pumps, and "Codes" didn't make all that stop working.

 

[JeepHammer]

No shit.

Um... not to put too fine a point on it,

Have you thought of traiding your wife in on a more efficient model? ?

 

[OffGridForGood]

"How to get Solar When you can't afford it"
My daughter showed me one of those small solar panels that sits in a window, it charges her phone and tablet.
If a person lives in an apartment, they could go with a solar generator (Bluetti, Jackery, EcoFlow) solar panel on the balcony - have power when the utility is down, or for camping trip, or run some small loads around the apt from the portable unit.
Small systems - starters can be like the MPP 2724 that support just a pair of PV panels and have outlets right on the inverter ready to use.
Larger systems - really anything goes here, 5kW to 60kW - off-grid, grid interactive, grid tied,
It seems to me. there is no issue to having solar, there are offerings in every possible price range, used equipment and PV panels are pretty common, with new advances, all the current stuff will likely show up on ebay/craigslist soon enough, lowering the cost of entry into solar further.

 

[BuffaloTrace]

*IF*... everyone had to hand aquire fuel themselves, you bet insulation would go WAY up (and obesity would go down!).

The old saying wood heats you 3 times, once when you cut it and drag it in, once when you split and stack it, third time when you burn it...

When I see 'EV' I think car...
In high population density, I should be thinking E-bike. Up to 30-40 MPH with a 750 Watt motor. Particularly viable where the weather cooperates. Half a blow dryer energy suck gets you right down the road.

I'm the Stingray to 10 speed generation, and I rode the hell out of my bike out here in rural areas. Gravel roads didn't even slow us down.

Like I said, if it's within a couple miles, I use my golf cart and it's close to 40 years old. One thing about simple electric vehicles, a little maintiance and they live a LONG time. Tires, wheel bearings, an occasional electrical relay and they just keep running.

I like the ebikes, Super efficient, and simple, and I'd argue better energy / more efficient than a hungry bicyclist. The golf cart size vehicles are great transportation too; small, efficient (think regen braking), and can be good for all seasons, and would probably cover a lot of people's regular driving habits. They are also simple with simple drive trains and few parts. New electric vehicles being sold have complex drive trains, chassis, heating and cooling systems for batteries, proprietary computers and their programs; it just isn't as simple as a golf cart, basically not comparable. The golf cart is more comparable to the EBike than to the modern electric vehicle.

I gotta dig myself a hobbit hole like home as well and give it a try, like yours......not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell....but a JeepHammer hole, filled with all the comforts of home.

 

[Bob in Tucson]

going from code minimum r13 walls to even r1000 walls and roof will save less than $100 year.

The savings will depend on climate, the cost of electricity (and/or gas and oil), and the volume of space you need to heat and cool. Tight and well-insulated buildings save some money on the cost of HVAC equipment, although that modest savings goes away if you need to buy an ERV.

Sealing your house air tight and using an erv would save approx $0 per year.

I agree that an ERV won't save any money as you're expelling some conditioned air, plus you have to power the thing.

Taken from a pure ROI perspective, money spent on insulation above that required for code will take a long time to get back -- maybe never, but that will depend on the stuff I listed above.

But the smug factor of being able to heat/cool 1000 sf with a 6K mini-split? That's immediate and priceless!

 

[Crowz]

I know I like my e-scooter. It goes 28 miles on a charge and goes about 15mph. Has cruise control, nice display showing speed, charge, etc and even has a headlight. Folds flat for carrying. Everyone thought I was nuts around here buying one to ride between two houses that are side by side until we were moving parts back and forth and other chores.

I finished the day rested and everyone else was cussing

Love the thing. I usually have to charge it up from being down to the 1/2 mark battery wise once every 3 to 6 months depending on how much I use it of course.

Only thing I had to do mod wise to make it useful was adding a basket to the front of it to carry stuff.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Um... not to put too fine a point on it,

Have you thought of traiding your wife in on a more efficient model? ?

Nah she has other redeeming qualities.

 

[1201]

If I were a "Code" type, I wouldn't have done what I have...

And you seemed to miss the point "Codes" are absloute MINIMUMS. So I guess if you want the absloute minimum, you can go "Code" and nothing more.

What I saw in Texas, and everyplace else the grid goes out, the home is freezing or overheated in a few hours.
My home will never get below 63°F or above 80°F. We reached 80°F inside while the concrete was curing and there weren't any windows yet, about 95°-98°F outside temp...

Much easier to heat from 63°F or cool from 68°-70°F than 20s to 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
Is that in your "Code" book?

So there's that...

While we regularly see air temps in the 90°-100°F range... and we spend a lot of nights in the 20°F range, and below.

Ground temp is 63° to 68°F on average. How does that factor into "Code" exactly?

My house is below code minimum and I'm fine with it. Total cost less than $75 psf. My savings buy more than a lifetime of energy. How much did your house cost psf?

(Below code minimum because I wanted high heat gain windows which is not technically allowed by code)

So the whole "absolute minimums" means nothing to me. A house that is actually built to minimum standard is a pretty darn good house.

Your house will definitely get below 63 and above 80 and if you think otherwise you are fooling only yourself.. Turn the HVAC off for a month in July and January and post the data

 

[Crowz]

My house was built so long ago no one even knows WHEN it was built. I usually just put down 1950 as build date. I think its was way older than that though as some homes are from the 1800's. I wonder what "code" it would of been.

I wonder if the house predates the town its in and possibly electricity for the area what would the "code" be?

 

[1201]

The savings will depend on climate, the cost of electricity (and/or gas and oil), and the volume of space you need to heat and cool. Tight and well-insulated buildings save some money on the cost of HVAC equipment, although that modest savings goes away if you need to buy an ERV.


I agree that an ERV won't save any money as you're expelling some conditioned air, plus you have to power the thing.

Taken from a pure ROI perspective, money spent on insulation above that required for code will take a long time to get back -- maybe never, but that will depend on the stuff I listed above.

But the smug factor of being able to heat/cool 1000 sf with a 6K mini-split? That's immediate and priceless!

Ahh. Someone who gets it ??

Two other reasons erv won't save money are
1. Houses are not that leaky, especially in cooling dominated climates like Texas. The natural ach of a house is approx ach 50/20. So when I tested my friend's house at 7 ach 50 with my blower door(yes I'm nerdy like that) the natural ach is only about 0.35 ach and it's even less than that in the summer.

Matter of fact, a house sealed to passiv Haus levels of less than 0.6 ach50 , using an erv, is leakier in the summer than a 7 ach50 house with no erv - most people can't wrap their head around that.

2. People assume that air leaks take all the energy with them-not true. The heat exchange effect was tested and air leaks through walls have a natural energy exchange of 10-25%. An erv is about 70% energy exchange for comparison.


I think insulating beyond code minimum below zone 5 is a net money loser.

Again, very unpopular opinion.

 

[JeepHammer]

I like the ebikes, Super efficient, and simple, and I'd argue better energy / more efficient than a hungry bicyclist. The golf cart size vehicles are great transportation too; small, efficient (think regen braking), and can be good for all seasons, and would probably cover a lot of people's regular driving habits. They are also simple with simple drive trains and few parts. New electric vehicles being sold have complex drive trains, chassis, heating and cooling systems for batteries, proprietary computers and their programs; it just isn't as simple as a golf cart, basically not comparable. The golf cart is more comparable to the EBike than to the modern electric vehicle.

I gotta dig myself a hobbit hole like home as well and give it a try, like yours......not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell....but a JeepHammer hole, filled with all the comforts of home.

I wasn't aware that anyone but the mentally ill or people in survival situations lived in half worm holes... (what happened to the other half of the worm? ?)

What we call 'French Drains'. I knocked a hill top off, put in foundation/french drains under the floor, big enough to move ground water, and started pouring concrete.

Since I live by a river, but well above any historic flood level, I put in floor drains. I HATE carpet, so polished concrete or tile floors with rugs... You can actually get a rug clean, carpet is dirty forever.

We have had EPIC water fights with the kids in the house, everything cleans really easily, zero maintiance, just don't forget to put in electrical conduits/drainswater pipes before you pour !!! Been there, done that, can't recommend it...

The running joke when younger was I wanted a house I could clean with a power washer... Just not too far from it now that I think about it.

Obviously not that simple, but not much more complicated either.

Some room negative molds/forms were water bags (made from military fuel bladders) some were sand bags with plywood for mostly flat surfaces where you want them.

You can't get any more simple (but labor intensive) than sand bags and plywood. Being a Marine I was intimately familiar with sand bags...

Wood frames between room forms became door frames, and save pouring, and sawing out concrete.

Mopped on tar based basement sealer, stuck on insulation, and put the dirt back on.

I wish I would have throught about the native stone in the front and let the concrete bind it. Attaching stone to concrete vertically is a chore...

Adding stone inside would have been cool but I didn't think of that either and I'm not doing it now.

The biggest recommendation I have is STANDARD WINDOWS.
I had triple pane, inert gas charged glass custom made, and THAT cost a small fortune. Actually set the home back almost 2 years expensive...

 

[JeepHammer]

My house is below code minimum and I'm fine with it. Total cost less than $75 psf. My savings buy more than a lifetime of energy. How much did your house cost psf?

(Below code minimum because I wanted high heat gain windows which is not technically allowed by code)

So the whole "absolute minimums" means nothing to me. A house that is actually built to minimum standard is a pretty darn good house.

Your house will definitely get below 63 and above 80 and if you think otherwise you are fooling only yourself.. Turn the HVAC off for a month in July and January and post the data

"Codes" don't apply to my home, I live off the beaten path and all the state required was a structural certificate.

No codes for earth sheltered construction or concrete construction because it's so uncommon.

Also the reason I had to build it out of pocket, no bank would give me a mortgage for 'Unconventional Construction'.

Crappy wood box or nothing in tornado alley, they won't lend for overbuilding even in tornado alley...

And NO, YOU'RE WRONG. ABSLOUTELY WRONG.
I'm absloutrly sure about the indoor temps, it sat with no windows for over a year, sat for another almost two years unheated, nothing but convection circulation.

63°F to 68°F ground temp. The home simply CAN NOT sleep heat or cool, and it's a monolithic structure.

I actually built too many windows in, had to find a way to shade them. The passive solar through windows alone will heat the house uncomfortably warm (about 80°F).

Now the wife is a plant, she likes 80°F and lots of sun. I'm NOT. I keep it around 70°F.

Did you miss the part I figured this out with a humid root cellar and two cold/dry storage spaces underground?

The ONLY time the A/C runs is when we want to dry the air out beyond what the dehumidifiers can handle or the house is full of people...

As for heating, passive solar in the daytime and solar thermal (hot water/radiant floor heat).

That's a small circulation pump.

At night, or excessively cold snaps that hang on (-5°F for a few days last winter) a multi-fuel boiler, radiant floor heat. It only kicked on in the daytime a few times, so rsre that my wife wanted to know "What that noise is"...

And...
Just an idea that worked out, extra radiant floor heat tube got buried under the patio. Two values behind the front door. No shoveling snow/ice on the patio/front porch.

It may cost me $5 in fuel, but I'll gladly trade $5 to NOT hammer/chisel ice or shovel snow... insulation sheets, sand, tubing, pavers... best idea I stole that year!

YOU do what you want, YOU believe what you want. Don't tell me what's been working for 25 years can't be done.

 

[wattmatters]

The costs to improve the thermal performance of a home vary massively.

Some things can be done cheaply.
Some things cost a bit more but are not horribly expensive.
Some things just cannot be cost justified.

e.g.
Shoving a bit of spare foam up my almost never used chimney as a draft stopper might cost $20
Getting insulation in up my ceiling might cost $4,000 (I can't do it myself).
Getting walls insulated and my windows and doors double glazed would be close to $100,000.

 

[pablo131]

I live in sunny suffolk uk and had grid tied solar installed in 2015(no battery backup) . See my usage below. I also get approx £800 back per year on a 'feed in' tariff. Currently working on a diy solar system with batteries so that I can run my garage and the house in the event of a power cut. I have no gas and a wood burning stove for the colder month. Oh, I live with my wife in a 3 bedroom bungalow approx 1500sq ft

 

[SamDeleted]

Um... not to put too fine a point on it,

Have you thought of traiding your wife in on a more efficient model? ?

A newer, more compact model , consumes less fuel. bigger better airbag system, tighter suspension for improved handling. Longer service intervals for reduced running costs ...

Silenced exhaust ?

 

[Crowz]

A newer, more compact model , consumes less fuel. bigger better airbag system, tighter suspension for improved handling. Longer service intervals for reduced running costs ...

Silenced exhaust ?

Must be a European model because silenced exhaust is not an option in the USA

 

[venquessa]

I started with £100. A 50W 12V Panel and the baby EPEver Tracer. A secondhand deep cycle 26Ah AGM.

My phone has been off grid since 2018! My phone, drone, e-cigs, headphone amp, anything and everything that charges off USB... except in Dec,Jan,Feb

In 5 years it made a whooping great 69kWh.

Here is the first lesson on solar. The upfront cost does not scale linearly to the return of investment. Smaller systems cost more per effective Wh output and so take much longer to pay for themselves. That system I think worked out to have an ROI of ... infinite. Because lead acid batteries hammered 365 days a year and flattened nearly in winter for 3 years need replaced. So it will never return on investment.

So. Go as big as you can on the budget. If you can get it, throw in interest free credit. Even put some actual credit into it. Just don't screw yourself day to day doing it.

If you simply can't gather a lump of money in one go, then you need to do your homework first. You need to select your design and components carefully such that you can continue to add small components together in efficient enough ways so you can just keep "incrementing". The bear in this is that a 2kW inverter does not cost twice what a 1kW inverter does, again, non-linear scale usually bigger = more W for $.

You probably want to spend your time in the cheaper end of the market, stay away from big name "Eco Systems" like Victron. They are absolutely brilliant, top notch, but.... they gouge on the eco-system with cables, converters, communications boxes, add-ons, dongles, displays, switches and it get expensive, it's always more expensive by the end than it appeared to be at the start. Finding out that each of the 3 Victron boxes you ordered needs a specific cable costing £50 before you can even really monitor them asides on your phone, or configure them! Is disappointing. A brilliant commercial move by them, but it's also infuriating and disappointing. Not saying Apple and John Deer but... you know.

There are some absolute gems in the cheaper end. EPEver and rebrands (Outback et. al) I'd place in the middle ground. If buying "random" off AliExpress, read and re-read the small prints, compare multiple identical product listsings, find reviews etc. I was looking at inverters on AliExpress which had headline figures of 8kW down to 2kW. In the description it stated the 8kW model had a "continuous rating" or only 900W!

£1800 gets me ~1kWh inverted power per day.

Another £1800 gets me much closer to 3kWh per day!

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Everyone thought I was nuts around here buying one to ride between two houses that are side by side until we were moving parts back and forth and other chores. I finished the day rested and everyone else was cussing

That is bizarre to me.
Modern people are way too soft if they can’t walk. Harbinger.

What was that animated movie of the guy with the remote that never left his easy chair? Technology and robots brought him slurpies and other disgusting things? I don’t recall but it was an interesting social commentary.