Is it possible to protect your Solar System against EMP?

[MisterSandals]

It relates to a specific type of capacitor.. You can find more information with google.

I have a Victron 150/50 and Giandel 2000W PSW, both brand spankin new, within several layers of heavy foil.

Should i plan on unwrapping these every 3 years and running for a few hours?

 

[robby]

Sol-Arks EMP kit is very extensive and difficult to install.
it’s just not worth the money unless you are extremely paranoid And rich.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Should i plan on unwrapping these every 3 years and running for a few hours?

Capacitors age out is what it comes down to. Maybe @Hedges might be able to discuss that, but capacitors die from age unpredictably, and while they’re replaced as wear items in many things I’ve been told it’s difficult to discern death from age versus death from wear.
Undersized wiring tends to blow them up after stressing them hot in air compressors on extension cords in my experience.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I have a Victron 150/50 and Giandel 2000W PSW, both brand spankin new, within several layers of heavy foil.

Should i plan on unwrapping these every 3 years and running for a few hours?

Wish I could give you an answer but I simply do not know. I suppose it wouldn't hurt you to do exactly that as it would verify functionality as well as give the caps some exercise.

 

[Hedges]

I've read of the issue but not worked with it.
Electrolytic capacitors are layers of foil with electrolyte, and thin dielectric is developed on one electrode by gradually ramping up voltage.

The usual wear-out mechanism is loss of electrolyte, not unpredictable but increasing ripple voltage due to ripple current and loss of capacity. Heat causes loss of electrolyte, and self-heating from ripple accelerates that. Electrolysis cracking water also causes loss. Supposed to be an additive to prevent or recombine; lack of that in counterfeit electrolyte was behind "capacitor plague" in the early 2000's.

I used to work with multichip modules (hybrid substrates) fabricated on wafers. An aluminum layer was deposited, then it was immersed and anodized with voltage gradually ramped up to 100VDC.

What I've read is old A/V gear can have the anodized layer eaten away with time sitting unpowered, so to recondition voltage is applied gradually. If full voltage applied immediately, it holds for a while but breaks down catastrophically at a thin spot. I think the reconditioning would be less than perfect; I'm sure during manufacturing capacitors are formed at a higher voltage than intended operation, but you would only use max allowed operating voltage.

Whether running vs. just applying DC makes a difference would depend on whether there are additional electrolytic capacitors besides those on battery DC bus. Inspect to see.

I've been thinking about this for one SI 5048US I've got that is about 15 years old, unused. I could gradually ramp up DC, but my concern is if any electronics would be damaged - I know of some SMPS which are readily killed by brownout.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

old A/V gear can have the anodized layer eaten away with time sitting unpowered, so to recondition voltage is applied gradually. If full voltage applied immediately, it holds for a while but breaks down catastrophically at a thin spot

So basically keeping them in use and not running an impact gun on 1 gallon 700W compressor? will give them best life. Thanks

 

[AlaskanNoob]

Once I figure out "grounding" and "alternating current" I'm going to come back to this thread and try to pick this stuff up. By then, we will probably have already had an EMP event so I imagine this thread will be updated with real world data.

I'm always amazed at how many people have their expensive systems and their sources of electricity connected to the internet. Just heard about Amazon shutting a guy's account down because a delivery driver claimed he heard something he didn't like from the guy's Ring doorbell and reported him. The guy had a Smart Home and a bunch of his stuff in his house didn't work as a result.

Keeping your power plant off the internet seems easy enough, but this EMP stuff (or planes or neighbors hacking into your bluetooth or WiFi enabled devices) seems like something to try to protect against as well. But for me, this topic seems way, way, way beyond my pay grade. But it's a great one all the same.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

but this EMP stuff

Imho if there’s a EMP event your actual survival and prevailing through the aftermath is TOTALLY irrelevant to your solar power surviving or not surviving. I’d rather it survive but I don’t lose any sleep over it; if it’s “that bad” the other Bad Things coupled with human nature when hungry or cold- that’s what bothers me and lights at night ain’t gonna help that one iota.

 

[AlaskanNoob]

Imho if there’s a EMP event your actual survival and prevailing through the aftermath is TOTALLY irrelevant to your solar power surviving or not surviving. I’d rather it survive but I don’t lose any sleep over it; if it’s “that bad” the other Bad Things coupled with human nature when hungry or cold- that’s what bothers me and lights at night ain’t gonna help that one iota.

Great point for most people depending on their situations. If you live around people and an EMP happens, you're right, issues are going to get primal real quick. Where we're at way out in the sticks, 1000 feet up, in a hard to get to forest away from people, the number of those other bad things we'll have to deal with is going to be pretty low to non-existent. But we have enough bears always trying to take our food on the regular that we get to practice.



Having an electric fence is helpful. I delayed fixing our fence this spring after I damaged it with a snowblower and the bears took advantage. They can't get into our cabin, but just having them up on the deck is annoying. The cameras around the property help us track where they're at and how often. We had one small black bear get up on the deck, I popped out the door and sprayed him in the face and haven't seen him since. But there is another one that came up while I was on the deck standing still (he didn't see me) and when I talked he ran. He came back later, I sprayed the snot out of him (the photo is him scurrying down the deck after getting blasted point blank in the face), but he still came back days later and got sprayed a second time. And then thirty minutes after that he came up toward the deck yet again so I shot close to him with the pistol. Now the cameras show he hangs out on the property still but he has avoided the cabin. And we got the electric fence fixed so if he does change his mind, hopefully that zaps him. While blackies are mostly an annoyance, when the brownies stop by it's really nice to know they're there and where they are at all times. They're real life monsters.

With a large property, a trenching bucket, power and technology really helps keep an eye on the potential threats. And, in our case, it also means not needing to venture into town to try to get fuel to run chainsaws or to power a loud gas powered ATV (assuming you have an electric one, which we don't yet), and not needing to run a loud gas chainsaw to cut wood to heat our cabin (we'll see how the heat pump does once we install it). Solar power keeps us much more self sufficient which lowers the need to go into town. And in town is where those other Bad Things reside. Power makes it less likely we'll have to engage with those.

So to conclude this post on the subject of solar panel system surviving high altitude nuclear EMP blast and why it would be a priority (despite the other social effects after such an event), it would be a priority for our situation because electricity helps protect against real life threats like freezing to death, bears, broadcasting your location with noisy gas equipment, etc.

 

[AntronX]

Back to the subject of solar panel system surviving high altitude nuclear EMP blast. Last time those tests were done solar panels did not exist. We can guess what would happen to PV string array subjected to 50kV/m fast rise time electric field. Destructive voltages and currents will develop across the string that would destroy bypass diodes and possibly solar cells as well.

One option is to break up PV string length by inserting ferrite chokes placed over each panel's PV wire close to junction box. Would need to be large enough to not saturate at max string current during normal operation. Each panel would also need fast surge protection designed to clamp surge voltage below bypass diode failure point. Normal MOV type SPDs will not work. Maybe TVS diode placed across bypass diodes in junction box followed by inductance then terminated via 100V spark gap. This custom SPD circuit would need to be simulated in LTSpice to fine tune performance. Shieleded PV wires will also help reduce EMP voltage field pickup.

Extra protection can be achieved by gluing aluminum foil to the back of the panel and electrically bonding it to panel frame to create continuous RF ground directly behind each solar cell. It would add capacitance between each cell and ground which would limit voltage rise across each cell due to series cell string inductance. Ideally we want to have 1uF ceramic capacitor connected to each lead of each solar cell and that aluminum foil backsheet. Copper foil would be slightly better but more expensive. Making smaller solar cells would also help limit voltage pickup at the expense of more bypass capacitors. More we break up the antenna effect of solar cell string the better. Perhaps someone with access to EM simulation software can model this.

MPPT, inverter and battery are protected by installing them in a metal enclosure with no exposed unprotected wires outside the enclosure or unshielded openings. AC, DC and control wires will have to enter via properly designed RF low pass filter and SPD to attenuate high frequency component of EMP and longer lived LF tail current. Close attention has to be paid to making sure no exposed wires enter the enclosure without going through filtering. One improperly installed wire will ruin the whole protection strategy.

US military has openly available publications on EMP protection for electronic equipment facilities that provides all information you would need to shield your equipment.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

One improperly installed wire will ruin the whole protection strategy

I’d almost rather have backups in a blink-proof vault than be ‘special’ everyday.
‘We’ probably have way higher risk of dying in a car accident than we do of getting an EMP yet none of us are quitting driving…

 

[Vigilant24]

I’d almost rather have backups in a blink-proof vault than be ‘special’ everyday.
‘We’ probably have way higher risk of dying in a car accident than we do of getting an EMP yet none of us are quitting driving…

Yep. For folks who have a big PV installation, most would probably balk at the price of buying redundant >everything< for such an unlikely event. But, the daily-use cables, panel racks, etc will be re-usable, and if a household can get by with a much smaller "essential loads" system the cost might not be very high. Solar panels (esp used ones) are coming down in price, "good enough" charge controllers are reasonably inexpensive (PWM still works as well as it ever did...). Batteries are pricey >and< would be the most maintenance intensive portion of any "put it in a Faraday cage and forget about it" system. Lead acid batteries would survive any EMP, and if they can be incorporated into a "daily use" system they could be kept topped up and healthy for use after "the event." Buying a big set of lithium batteries to keep offline in a shielded box "just in case" is outside of my budget, but a maybe some folks would be okay with a small investment. $300 spent for a 1200 AH battery that was checked/topped back up to 80% once per year might prove useful even in more normal situations (power outages, etc).
If my understanding is correct, having even a crummy battery (lead acid battery from a car?) will let the charge controller see that there's a nominal 12V load so the power will flow from the panels-> SCC-> inverter (and battery). Hooking an inverter to that battery will allow much larger AC loads (fridge, furnace fan, power tools, pumps, chargers for other batteries, etc) in the daytime when sufficient PV power is available. In this way, a low-budget "just in case" system, even if it had nearly zero battery storage, might be pretty useful.

 

[AntronX]

Buying a big set of lithium batteries to keep offline in a shielded box

Not necessary. Battery cells are immune to EMP. Only BMS circuit is vulnerable. Just keep spare BMS boards.

 

[Vigilant24]

Not necessary. Battery cells are immune to EMP. Only BMS circuit is vulnerable. Just keep spare BMS boards.

Can the BMS fail in such a way that the cells themselves are then damaged?

 

[AntronX]

Can the BMS fail in such a way that the cells themselves are then damaged?

Only if balancing circuits get stuck turned on and discharge the battery to zero.

 

[Sanwizard]

I’d almost rather have backups in a blink-proof vault than be ‘special’ everyday.
‘We’ probably have way higher risk of dying in a car accident than we do of getting an EMP yet none of us are quitting driving…

Yeah, but some of us drive around with a get home bag in the back, and fix-a-flat in the trunk. Its just nice to not be scared, but be prepared.

I recently saw a youtube of a guy who lost thousands in equipment, cause he neglected to install lightning suppression. He learned the hard way that a few bucks spent as insurance could protect from a costly one time event.

I taught all my kids how to shoot, how to build their own rifles, the basics of Tae Kwon Do, and many other skills that would come in handy if they needed to protect their own families as they grew up.

I am hoping they NEVER need to use any of those skills, but its good to know they have the skills if needed.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Not necessary. Battery cells are immune to EMP. Only BMS circuit is vulnerable. Just keep spare BMS boards.

Keep them in the blink-proof vault. They could and likely would still fry from the inducted power imho.

Yep. For folks who have a big PV installation, most would probably balk at the price of buying redundant >everything< for such an unlikely event

True. But I have a problem. I depend on my stuff that is also a bit of a hobby. I think I currently have nine or ten SCC’s on hand, five inverters, and like 60 or 70 spare MC4s, maybe 1000 total of different sized terminal lugs up to 2/0… and ~3600W of spare panels that only cost me $800 1900W of which are brand new panels. I scan for stuff continually.

You get the idea.

 

[timselectric]

True. But I have a problem. I depend on my stuff that is also a bit of a hobby. I think I currently have nine or ten SCC’s on hand, five inverters, and like 60 or 70 spare MC4s, maybe 1000 total of different sized terminal lugs up to 2/0… and ~3600W of spare panels that only cost me $800 1900W of which are brand new panels. I scan for stuff continually.

You get the idea.

Hello fellow hoarder. lol

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Hello fellow hoarder. lol

But only certain scrap steel, jeep YJ parts, certain boat stuff, and solar equipment (that I usually buy new).
I don’t buy tools that often anymore cuz I buy stuff on needs basis. And I don’t lack for tools.
I did just get two 11# spools of 0.023 mig wire because I found it at $23/spool, and I spent $249 at harbor freight for a tubing roller that fixed a bent up $300 portable garage frame I got for free. And now I own and still have the tool and have already used it for several projects which couldn’t happen if I just bought a portable garage new.

My ‘hoarding’ has either a payback/profit incentive or is opportunistic parts that keep me from buying maintenance or repair parts later. Like transfer cases.

Maybe it is a sickness.
When I was younger I was envious of people that could move apartments in a few hours. No longer: I have a 28’ office trailer full of tools I can rebuild entire vehicles with plus a whole woodshop, and a gutted 38’ camper full of parts, lumber, other storage. They don’t cost me anything and I can repair or build most anything wood or metal.

Many think I’m a hoarder but I think of it is extremely self sufficient. ?

 

[timselectric]

But only certain scrap steel, jeep YJ parts, certain boat stuff, and solar equipment (that I usually buy new).
I don’t buy tools that often anymore cuz I buy stuff on needs basis. And I don’t lack for tools.
I did just get two 11# spools of 0.023 mig wire because I found it at $23/spool, and I spent $249 at harbor freight for a tubing roller that fixed a bent up $300 portable garage frame I got for free. And now I own and still have the tool and have already used it for several projects which couldn’t happen if I just bought a portable garage new.

My ‘hoarding’ has either a payback/profit incentive or is opportunistic parts that keep me from buying maintenance or repair parts later. Like transfer cases.

Maybe it is a sickness.
When I was younger I was envious of people that could move apartments in a few hours. No longer: I have a 28’ office trailer full of tools I can rebuild entire vehicles with plus a whole woodshop, and a gutted 38’ camper full of parts, lumber, other storage. They don’t cost me anything and I can repair or build most anything wood or metal.

Many think I’m a hoarder but I think of it is extremely self sufficient. ?

Most of what I have will save or make me money in the future.
I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it.
It's just nice to know that I am not alone. lol