New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[Goboatingnow]

That’s exactly how it happened and does on a daily basis.

Born poor to poor uneducated parents.
You don’t get much poorer than living in Appalachia coal country in the 50s. It’s

I decided I wasn’t going to live like that.
It wasn’t over night and not without failure.

Trying once or twice or even 3 times and quitting isn’t an option.
It’s a lifestyle of learning and expanding your knowledge every day.

Yes anyone can do it but most just like to complain it’s someone else’s fault.

Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is commendable and all sorts of gov support structures usually are available to help those that want to help themselves . In my country there’s a stack of free or subsidised education opportunities , start your own business. Grant aid to 50000 , tax incentives etc etc.

However lots of people do not succeed or even get the oppprtunity. Then you add in people working on zero hour contracts or unstable “ gig “ economy jobs. These people often have childcare issues to boot. The next result is the “ working “ poor.

It’s a complete myth that there’s a huge group that don’t want to work. There is no evidence such groups exists. Certainly there are always free loaders that’s the price we have to pay to have a support system in the first place.

The point is we need to subsidise PV into poorer homes not into wealthy ones.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Hey now, what's wrong with having a vehicle that's fun to drive, gets good looks and is so simple that any backyard mechanic can fix it?

See my avatar. LOL

I have transportation and I have toys. It's no different than some rent an apartment and some live in a McMansion. Some have a canoe, some have a yacht. My opinion is if you honestly worked to get the money to afford it and want it, then it should be your right to buy it, build it, own it. I worked 100 hour weeks for years to get what I enjoy.

Nothing at all. Provided you live in a reasonable caring society and you pays your taxes. What’s left is entirely at your disposal.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Thank God! The lefties in the US are far enough. If they got any more left they would make Chairman Mao look like Ronald Reagan.

They look centre right to any decent European centre left observer

 

[Zwy]

Not saying if that’s your thing then rock out but ultimately cars are just transportation.

I do look at cars at transportation, that's why I own many. Each has a purpose when used as such.

I have a 2001 Ford F-350 7.3 and I will have it until I die.

Have a 93 Chevy 6.5L, and 2 Duramax's. 2003 Duramax is for business use pulling a trailer and I don't drive it in the winter. It will be here until I die or gets wrecked. The 2002 Duramax carries my truck camper, it might get driven in winter to a warmer climate. It too will be here a long time.

Problem is you have folks who don’t have anything but choose to spend $70,000 on a new vehicle because it’s cool or new or whatever and you really can’t self mechanic new stuff other than change oil.

Nobody ever said the majority of people are smart.

 

[CoolWill]

They look centre right to any decent European centre left observer

Perhaps, but none but the most self-loathing Americans cares. It just shows how terrible Europe is right now. The answer to problems created by leftists isn't more leftism.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Cars are transportation that’s it.

No to many they are actually status symbols. They scream “ look at me”

Not suppose to be status symbols or neck breakers but unfortunately lots of peoples identities are wrapped up in them.

It’s just rich peoples toys no more then clothes ( I once owned a Porsche and a €135k Range Rover v8 , so I can hardly complain )

They depreciate plus the cost to run them and maintain them not to mention the environmental effects.

Yup , just like boats, and most other things

I am all for alternate forms of transport BUT they have to make sense and be viable for everyone not just a select few.

Sure , the futures public transport and some EV , there will be huge Carrot and stick approaches to forcing you away from cars.

That why I wish PRT had a bigger role..

What’s PRT

 

[Goboatingnow]

Perhaps, but none but the most self-loathing Americans cares. It just shows how terrible Europe is right now. The answer to problems created by leftists isn't more leftism.

I’m not going to follow your logic. Europe is a great place to live. Having lived in both US and now 9 months in Greece I have first hand experience.( for example the public medical system in Greece is outstanding )

What I meant was that a proper centre left party would at least give people a choice.

But the US Political system is so corrupted by vast amounts of money , it’s hopeless. I’m not surprised soo many people are angry. I don’t recognise the country I lived in in the early 80s now. It’s utterly divided , with enormous disparity , very sad really. I was about to move the family back in 2008 , but sold the business and retired.

The whole electoral college two party system is outdated and perpetuates a broken system. Directly eject your governments by PR voting produces political configurations that far better reflect the diversity of opinion. ( IMHO )

 

[Nobodybusiness]

So were you born knowing how to stretch every penny? Or did your parents teach you how to do that. Some kids get crappy parents. So they don't learn how to stretch every penny. How did you choose your parents? Was there a list? Was there a trial period?

It’s UP TO YOU.

 

[Goboatingnow]

It’s UP TO YOU.

Maybe but the dice is stacked against so many people , level the pitch and I agree

 

[Zwy]

It’s UP TO YOU.

Have seen it many times. I live in farm country, one person is given 80 acres and loses it, the next person struggles to buy 80 acres on their own and pay for it ending up very successful in the end. It's about having goals and doing what it takes to get there.

I graduated from high school in the middle of the 80's Farm Crisis. Jobs were scarce, I joined the USMC in order to get money to attend trade school, and make ends meet. Trade school led to a career that changed direction over the years until I found the niche I fit in. At one time, I owned a beat up 1966 VW Beetle, had 10 bucks to my name and the clothes on my back with rent due. I still own that 1966 Beetle, it reminds me of where I came from and the road I took to get there.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

You're telling me you think I-9 forms, withholding taxes on w2 employees, etc.. doesn't have to be done for all employees? Employees, not legitimate 1099 contractors. Which a day laborer is not.

Please provide your evidence of federal paperwork for w2 employees only being required after a certain number of hours, as I would love to not have to deal with that paperwork and tax remittance and occasionally hire day laborers.

Maybe there are some crazy industries that are exempted from all federal/state reporting and labor laws, but I'm not aware of them as I'm not in a favored industry like that.

NC requires any business with 3 or more employees to have workers comp.
Doesn’t have anything to do with hours.

1099 workers are hired for a Specific task.
Seems to me a day labor fits that quite well but most are just cash under the table deals.

As far as I know if you have w2 workers who make less than $21,000 I think taxes aren’t withheld.
They just get it back.

 

[CoolWill]

I’m not going to follow your logic. Europe is a great place to live. Having lived in both US and now 9 months in Greece I have first hand experience.( for example the public medical system in Greece is outstanding )

What I meant was that a proper centre left party would at least give people a choice.

But the US Political system is so corrupted by vast amounts of money , it’s hopeless. I’m not surprised soo many people are angry. I don’t recognise the country I lived in in the early 80s now. It’s utterly divided , with enormous disparity , very sad really. I was about to move the family back in 2008 , but sold the business and retired.

The whole electoral college two party system is outdated and perpetuates a broken system. Directly eject your governments by PR voting produces political configurations that far better reflect the diversity of opinion. ( IMHO )

You are right about corruption and division. However, at it's Constitutional foundations, the US system is as good as a free system can be. The electoral college exists for good reason and anyone calling for it's abolition doesn't understand why it exists to begin with.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

D

 

[Hedges]

An “ eco village “ near me about 30 homes tried this. It descended into massive rancour with arguments over what the communal rate should be. Some argued high consumers should pay more per kWh as they got an unfair benefit

The sustem also needed grid tie in to survive the winter and more arguments ensured.

Some in the community argued low consumption ( higher insulation passive style houses ) should pay low kWh rates.

5 years later the system lies under-utilised and many went off and did their own thing.

Sounds like California. Except we have 12,000,000 homes and took 100 years to reach that point.

 

[CoolWill]

Sounds like California. Except we have 12,000,000 homes and took 100 years to reach that point.

To be fair, California wasn't always a communist paradise so it took a while longer than the "eco village" that started off with Karl Marx's picture on the flag.

 

[Goboatingnow]

You are right about corruption and division. However, at it's Constitutional foundations, the US system is as good as a free system can be. The electoral college exists for good reason and anyone calling for it's abolition doesn't understand why it exists to begin with.

Oh any student of politics and the framing of the constitution and the background understands why the electoral college exists.

The question is it puts governments at one more step away from directly elected

Secondly one could argue the electoral college affords under populated states too much power.

Interesting when the European Parliament was founded no attempt to “ protect small states “ was considered. Members of Parliament are purely assigned by population. So every few years I have to vote for 1 of 4 depending on where I live.

So it’s an “ argument “ whether the principles behind the historic decisions still bear reasonable analysis.

I’m not a fan of calcified constitutions. Everything should be open to change because societies change and founding principles may wane. Ultimately the people should decide by simple vote what a constitution should represent.

Whilst I live in a small country and politics here is very local and personal ( most people would met and interacted with their local elected members ) i realise this has its advantages and they don’t transfer easily to large populations , I still beleive direct democracy works the best ( of any system )

 

[Goboatingnow]

To be fair, California wasn't always a communist paradise so it took a while longer than the "eco village" that started off with Karl Marx's picture on the flag.

To be fair having been there recently I think the description of it as a communist paradise is from people with absolutely no clue whatsoever what a communist state looks like. To a European it’s still looks like a classic centre right wing state.

 

[CoolWill]

To be fair having been there recently I think the description of it as a communist paradise is from people with absolutely no clue whatsoever what a communist state looks like. To a European it’s still looks like a classic centre right wing state.

I didn't say it was a communist state. I said it's a communist paradise, meaning wannabe communists flock there. Every nutty pie-in-the-sky leftist believes that needle waste and feces in the street is how it should be everywhere.

 

[cs1234]

Have seen it many times. I live in farm country, one person is given 80 acres and loses it, the next person struggles to buy 80 acres on their own and pay for it ending up very successful in the end. It's about having goals and doing what it takes to get there.

I graduated from high school in the middle of the 80's Farm Crisis. Jobs were scarce, I joined the USMC in order to get money to attend trade school, and make ends meet. Trade school led to a career that changed direction over the years until I found the niche I fit in. At one time, I owned a beat up 1966 VW Beetle, had 10 bucks to my name and the clothes on my back with rent due. I still own that 1966 Beetle, it reminds me of where I came from and the road I took to get there.

The military is a good example of a publicly funded government jobs program.

Some people need that sort of employment opportunity. It would be nice to have many more options like it, but not combat / violence related.

 

[Goboatingnow]

I didn't say it was a communist state. I said it's a communist paradise, meaning wannabe communists flock there. Every nutty pie-in-the-sky leftist believes that needle waste and feces in the street is how it should be everywhere.

I follow US politics. Certainly from a European perspective , California seems more centre right then left. So no one in Europe would view it as a communist paradise.

This is rather off topic. ( albeit interesting ) But I do see there seems to be much invective thrown at California by alt right types. I suspect it’s just bias.

Having worked in Scandinavia, nowhere in the states comes close to being regarded as a left wing “paradise “

 

[Goboatingnow]

The military is a good example of a publicly funded government jobs program.

Some people need that sort of employment opportunity. It would be nice to have many more options like it, but not combat / violence related.

It’s an interesting idea , if one looks at the staggering costs of the military I doubt many such “employment “ schemes could be afforded. LEO being the other , and to some extent teachers. All are quite difficult to access.

However Russia has just created zillions more “ employment opportunities “ in its military its seems , mind you certain compulsory aspects of that employment are unpalatable to say the least

 

[Hedges]

Secondly one could argue the electoral college affords under populated states too much power.

One could argue that pure democracy is the oppression of the minority by the majority.

I’m not a fan of calcified constitutions. Everything should be open to change because societies change and founding principles may wane. Ultimately the people should decide by simple vote what a constitution should represent.

Our constitution can be changed by a supermajority. If it could be changed by simple majority, refer to previous comment.

Unfortunately, it can also be reinterpreted by a dozen old men in robes to mean anything at all entirely different from what the words say, regardless of what the words meant when they were penned or even today. "Legislation from the Bench."

 

[Goboatingnow]

One could argue that pure democracy is the oppression of the minority by the majority.

Sure , many countries have certain checks and balances to protect against that. No system is perfect. But good enough is probably the best there is.

Our constitution can be changed by a supermajority. If it could be changed by simple majority, refer to previous comment.

Indeed but the process is very complex and difficult hence the very few situations it has occurred

Unfortunately, it can also be reinterpreted by a dozen old men in robes to mean anything at all entirely different from what the words say, regardless of what the words meant when they were penned or even today. "Legislation from the Bench."

Indeed every written constitition ( we have one in Ireland too ) suffers from this “ interpretation problem “ and from time to time this leads to decisions that the electorate were not expecting.

Of course on a island with around 2 million voting adults , having referendums to change the constitution is easy , currently we seem to be voting on it about every three years recently. The last being abortion , same sex marriage and divorce. That kept the political classes excercised for the last 10 years. ( then we have to have a referendum on every EU treaty or mod to the treaty. , more traipsing back to the polling station. )

 

[cs1234]

You are right about corruption and division. However, at it's Constitutional foundations, the US system is as good as a free system can be. The electoral college exists for good reason and anyone calling for it's abolition doesn't understand why it exists to begin with.

The electoral college is fundamentally disgusting. It throws away significant numbers of votes in many states by how they implement it with it's winner takes all nonsense. It discourages voting by building a sense of hopelessness amongst the minority percentage of a states population. State governments are not the ones that should be voting for the President of the United States. That's just wrong, regardless of whether that's how it's setup.

The only thing worse than the electoral college is the Senate. It gives people more rights / power over others based solely on where they live. States / countries don't really *exist*, they don't have human rights, they are constructs of our collective imagination. If "rural" people in sparsely populated areas need to be protected from the braindead masses in the city, there must be another way to protect them that isn't in violation of basic human decency.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

The military is a good example of a publicly funded government jobs program.

Some people need that sort of employment opportunity. It would be nice to have many more options like it, but not combat / violence related.

Only 10% of the military is in actual combat roles.

The rest are support..

I know people who never left CONUS for years much less saw combat.