New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[JRH]

Probably because there are more vehicle fires per mile driven with internal combustion engine driven vehicles. I don't know about garage fires but Tesla does seem to get in the news if one of them does have an issue. Probably reason number 35 why you won't be getting an EV soon. I have been parking my EVs in the garage without issue for ten years.

dog bites man….ho hum .. Man bites dog ..CNN Breaking news.
EVs get a bad rap when a hundred times the gas engines do worse everyday...
media today sucks…..

 

[TRW]

And diesel or kerosine if vaporized by heat or any source also has a phenomenal explosion force. You won't find them vaporizing as easily as gasoline but under the right conditions violently explode if ignited.

 

[Hedges]

 

[JRH]

Yeow….

 

[Shimmy]

Sorta on this topic , can anyone tell me why the nec doesn’t require less than a 50 volt system to have a grounding set up with grounding electrodes but over 50 they do…

There are (at least) a couple reasons, none of which are perfect. The main one is electrocution risk is lower. Beyond that, you get into issues with thinking of power-limited systems and diminishing returns on additional precautions.

I know they want to make it tough on DIY people as they can’t make money on a bunch of mavericks out here doing their thing.

That isn't the incentive. If you have ever been in a telecom central office battery room, or comparable facility for a large data center where you might have a battery room with (10) 10,000A 48VDC battery systems, or (4) 480VDC strings with 240 300-pound flooded lead acid jars each. When they started looking into alternative chemistries code authorities were reasonably concerned.

Then suddenly they become viable for homes! The same batteries that were causing cars to spontaneously combust! The Horror! Something Must Be Done!! LFP was originally going to be treated differently than NMC Li-Ion, but that gets too complicated to address new chemistries and evolving threats.

I would love to see NFPA's statistics on residential battery fires that justify the regulation, but ultimately it is hard to say they shouldn't have done anything.

 

[JRH]

There are (at least) a couple reasons, none of which are perfect. The main one is electrocution risk is lower. Beyond that, you get into issues with thinking of power-limited systems and diminishing returns on additional precautions.

That isn't the incentive. If you have ever been in a telecom central office battery room, or comparable facility for a large data center where you might have a battery room with (10) 10,000A 48VDC battery systems, or (4) 480VDC strings with 240 300-pound flooded lead acid jars each. When they started looking into alternative chemistries code authorities were reasonably concerned.

Then suddenly they become viable for homes! The same batteries that were causing cars to spontaneously combust! The Horror! Something Must Be Done!! LFP was originally going to be treated differently than NMC Li-Ion, but that gets too complicated to address new chemistries and evolving threats.

I would love to see NFPA's statistics on residential battery fires that justify the regulation, but ultimately it is hard to say they shouldn't have done anything.

The safety thing makes sence.….thanks , jim.

 

[Danke]

Probably because there are more vehicle fires per mile driven with internal combustion engine driven vehicles. I don't know about garage fires but Tesla does seem to get in the news if one of them does have an issue. Probably reason number 35 why you won't be getting an EV soon. I have been parking my EVs in the garage without issue for ten years.

Guess that went over your head and you had to bring up ICE vehicles. The point, NCM batteries commonly used in EV are not subject to inspectors harassing homeowners, even though such EVs are in the homeowner’s attached garage being charged, but apparently LFP (which are safer) for storage are subject to “codes.”

 

[12VoltInstalls]

what’s so bad about 80 volts that that isnt bad about 48 volts.

Chance of death

 

[svetz]

Florida is in process for NEC2020 by the end of this year.

Are you sure about that? I was seeing:

The Florida Building Commission began the triennial building code update process in 2021. It plans to adopt 2021 I-Codes and the 2020 NEC. The target effective date is December 31, 2023.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Are you sure about that? I was seeing:

This is the source I referenced, which states end of 2022, the actual code writers ( nfpa.org ) which show all states and expected adoptions, your mileage may vary

 

[Ampster]

Guess that went over your head and you had to bring up ICE vehicles.

In reviewing the thread, in post #252 you specifically mentioned Tesla not just vehicles in general. Yes, I sarcastically mentioned yet another reason why you will not buy an EV, which did not go over my head. Other posters further mentioned the dangers of gasoline and other fuels.

The point you were missing was that according to building codes garages are for parking vehicles.

 

[Supervstech]

Well, I don’t know about Fl adoptions, but here in NC, it’s complicated…
Single family dwellings stay on the 2017 code with Nc’s alterations… by law, we cannot switch to 2020 code before 2025, unless there is an overturning of the statute.
However, anything outside of SFD and it’s on 2020.

 

[JRH]

Chance of death

Dont beat around the bush Doc .. give it to me straight……( ha) .

 

[Danke]

In reviewing the thread, in post #252 you specifically mentioned Tesla not just vehicles in general. Yes, I sarcastically mentioned yet another reason why you will not buy an EV, which did not go over my head. Other posters further mentioned the dangers of gasoline and other fuels.

The point you were missing was that according to building codes garages are for parking vehicles.

LOL, ok not a Tesla: (And when someone says “google it”. That doesn’t mean use any search engine…)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1554471902307127299

Another EV fire... this one from Florida earlier this summer. A Jaguar i-pace was parked in an attached garage when the owner heard "popping" sounds and saw smoke puffing from the car. The car was moved outside before it burst into flames.

 

[svetz]

Lithium fires are not new, there have about 60 EV fires since 2010 that are all listed on a Wikipedia page (compared to the 285,000 ICE fires per year).

The above quote was from last year, so probably more fires now, but the only reason EV fires are newsworthy is because it's more sensational.

From the other threads I've learned:

1. As car fires, they're marginally safer as the fire is slower to start it allows more time for people to escape a burning vehicle
2. Water is poured on them, not to put out the fire, but to keep other batteries cooler in the hopes of slowing it down.
3. Dry chemicals to smother them don't work because they have their own oxidant.
4. It's the liquid electrolyte in them that is flammable
5. Most fire departments were originally unprepared for them and there weren't good solutions for putting them out. But that's changing (ref).

 

[Ampster]

ok not a Tesla:

Another EV fire? That would be Reason #36 for you to not buy and EV. Thankfully, @svetz puts that in perspective.

 

[timselectric]

Well, I don’t know about Fl adoptions, but here in NC, it’s complicated…
Single family dwellings stay on the 2017 code with Nc’s alterations… by law, we cannot switch to 2020 code before 2025, unless there is an overturning of the statute.
However, anything outside of SFD and it’s on 2020.

That's very complicated to keep up with. lol

 

[JRH]

Another EV fire? That would be Reason #36 for you to not buy and EV. Thankfully, @svetz puts that in perspective.

Many people in the world died to day somewhere simply walking out the front door to go to work… should we all stop going to work… ?? …..Life with no risk would be mighty boring..actually it’s impossible..

 

[Ampster]

Life with no risk would be mighty boring..actually it’s impossible..

I agree. I do feel safer in my Tesla which has a lot of early warning devices that I did not have in previous vehicles.

 

[timselectric]

That's it.
I'm never going to walk out my door, again.
I feel safer, already. lol