Off-grid in the city is illegal ?

[Badfrogg]

My bad. Not 5kw, it's 5kwh.

This what I estimate 1000w worth of panels will produce in an average Florida day. The circuit I want to run is just the living room TV, lights and entertainment. It uses roughly 4kwh/day. I have a fairly large 11kw battery (230ah - 48v) so I can see production/consumption over several cloudy or rainy days.

I intend for this one circuit to be off-grid. So no backup from the grid. It is completely isolated 20A solar circuit.

I want to do this so I can see real word results before committing to a larger system.

 

[k490]

I'm in AZ just got my electric bill $530 hit me an extra $80 adjuster fee for using too much overall power I decreased the on peak and shifted it to my off peak. I'm definitely building an off-grid system now. I found a supplier I can trust in China 280AH cells $80 each brings the ROI down enough it's worth it. I'm not pulling a permit either going to off load my AC unit, Stove, and electric dryer. That is majority of my monthly bill I have enough room on the back patio for 20 - 500-watt panels. If I pull a permit, they require me to get a contract with my utility they put all these restriction on you can't install a system bigger then 15KW for 200-amp panel.

 

[Supervstech]

That's what I do. Run the ac off of solar saves about $300 a month.

How big is your house if the ac uses 300 a month?

 

[Danke]

How big is your house if the ac uses 300 a month?

He is in California.

So I’m guessing with such a low bill, he lives in one of these:

 

[k490]

Family live in Valencia, CA 2900 SQ condo summer bill is around $750 a month. My summer bill in Phoenix just hit $530 for August my January bill is $180 1800 SQ home. 4-ton heat pump 1970's home new windows just installed last year slump block home poor insulation flat roof. Likely leaky duct work.

 

[watchdoc]

My bad. Not 5kw, it's 5kwh.

This what I estimate 1000w worth of panels will produce in an average Florida day. The circuit I want to run is just the living room TV, lights and entertainment. It uses roughly 4kwh/day. I have a fairly large 11kw battery (230ah - 48v) so I can see production/consumption over several cloudy or rainy days.

I intend for this one circuit to be off-grid. So no backup from the grid. It is completely isolated 20A solar circuit.

I want to do this so I can see real word results before committing to a larger system.

For a system that small, just build a portable solar generator on a hand truck and a portable cart or trailer for your solar panels. Get the manual transfer switch permitted so they can't say anything about it.

 

[ungrounded]

I am a homeowner in Florida. I started down the road of DIY solar and now find that there is a quagmire of rules and restrictions. What is worse is that I can't seem to verify any truth or facts. If someone says that I am not allowed to do something, that is fine, but I would like to see the laws for myself.

I have been told that I cannot install solar myself and must hire a company. - Can't find the law though.
I have been told that any solar installed on my property must be connected to the grid. - Can't find that law either.
I though I would just go pull a permit, make some drawing, follow some codes, get inspected and all would be good... Not how it is working out though.

Do I need a contractor or a

How big is your house if the ac uses 300 a month

1700sqft. In So.cal

 

[Craig]

No HOA, thankfully. One more layer of bureaucracy, no thanks.

Yeah, 'Solar Guy' was really interested in convicting me that I was an idiot and needed a $30k debt instead of an electric bill. I wonder how much debt solar guy has? My house is payed and I have no dept. Strange, I don't fell like an idiot.

This here is the problem solar guy sells you maybe 10k in setup for 30k if you do it yourself you take 20k plus interest off his plate. Of course he is going to tell you that. I would just walk into the building department and tell them what you want to do and then ask them what you need to do it. They are usually very helpful. If they give you grief ask them to present you with that section of the code and go from there.

 

[watchdoc]

1700sqft. In So.cal

What equipment do you own so far? What are the details of your DIY battery? 1000 watts of solar is only 2-4 panels which would fit on a cart or shed with no problem. Again, a small manual transfer switch would accomplish your goal here and be easy to permit. Then you just buy a solar generator that fits your needs or build one.

All the "solar guys" are gonna tell you that you can't build a small DIY system because they don't sell them. A small 4 circuit manual transfer switch is very common in florida and easy to permit. The VERY simple EZ generator switch would work for a single 20 amp circuit.

Manual Generator Transfer Switch - EZ Generator Switch

EZ Generator Switch is the most affordable and efficient generator connecting manual transfer switch on the market. The switch gives you a simple way to connect any generator to power essential circuits. We are the only company in both the United States & Canada building switches compatible with...

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[watchdoc]

I'm in AZ just got my electric bill $530 hit me an extra $80 adjuster fee for using too much overall power I decreased the on peak and shifted it to my off peak. I'm definitely building an off-grid system now. I found a supplier I can trust in China 280AH cells $80 each brings the ROI down enough it's worth it. I'm not pulling a permit either going to off load my AC unit, Stove, and electric dryer. That is majority of my monthly bill I have enough room on the back patio for 20 - 500-watt panels. If I pull a permit, they require me to get a contract with my utility they put all these restriction on you can't install a system bigger then 15KW for 200-amp panel.

Most utilities offer free energy audits. I'd have that done first and then put some effort into figuring out what your largest loads are. Its likely HVAC and water heater. Both of these items can be upgraded to more efficient units that come with tax credit and sometimes even local incentives as well. My point is.... Get your house in order before you go buying cheap Chinese batteries that aren't UL listed and could burn your house down.

 

[Hedges]

I'm in AZ just got my electric bill $530 hit me an extra $80 adjuster fee for using too much overall power I decreased the on peak and shifted it to my off peak. I'm definitely building an off-grid system now. I found a supplier I can trust in China 280AH cells $80 each brings the ROI down enough it's worth it. I'm not pulling a permit either going to off load my AC unit, Stove, and electric dryer. That is majority of my monthly bill

Off-grid means inverter needs to supply 100% of loads, as does PV + battery, in worst of times. If it is able to draw from grid for additional power, much easier because it can be undersize.

I have enough room on the back patio for 20 - 500-watt panels.

If I pull a permit, they require me to get a contract with my utility they put all these restriction on you can't install a system bigger then 15KW for 200-amp panel.

The 120% rule - 200A panel, 200A main breaker, max 40A PV breaker 32A backfed is 7.68 kW.
If 225A panel, 200A main, max 70A PV breaker 56A backfed is 13.44 kW
No 120% rule if 200A main disconnect is breaker only, branches out to multiple sub-panels.
(I understand a 200A main panel with just 200A main breaker and 200A tap at end of busbar, all other breakers removed, can be treated same as 200A main disconnect.)

A system with 15kW (STC) PV is likely more than sufficient for your consumption, but need to see kWh/day.

Something like SolArk should be able to process all your PV, backfeed the house with zero-export (not exceeding 7.68kW if necessary), charge batteries with excess power, supply additional power to downstream loads.

If you backfeed the grid, need to get utility involved. If zero-export but blending PV power with grid power, likely also.
If your system operates as double-conversion on-line UPS (Utility and PV charge batteries, AC created from batteries), likely not.

Its likely HVAC and water heater. Both of these items can be upgraded to more efficient units that come with tax credit and sometimes even local incentives as well.

We don't use a lot of hot water, and gas bill is $8/month. Maybe electric would cost $80? Although, gas water heater has heat-loss path through flue, but electric can be better insulated. Other loads are what's killing you.

With Arizona sun, how about solar pre-heat water, solar clothes-line dryer?

Stove likely isn't operated enough hours to matter.

A/C is the killer. Look into its efficiency and duct sealing. If it is trying to condition the great outdoors, you lose.

 

[k490]

Off-grid means inverter needs to supply 100% of loads, as does PV + battery, in worst of times. If it is able to draw from grid for additional power, much easier because it can be undersize.





The 120% rule - 200A panel, 200A main breaker, max 40A PV breaker 32A backfed is 7.68 kW.
If 225A panel, 200A main, max 70A PV breaker 56A backfed is 13.44 kW
No 120% rule if 200A main disconnect is breaker only, branches out to multiple sub-panels.
(I understand a 200A main panel with just 200A main breaker and 200A tap at end of busbar, all other breakers removed, can be treated same as 200A main disconnect.)

A system with 15kW (STC) PV is likely more than sufficient for your consumption, but need to see kWh/day.

Something like SolArk should be able to process all your PV, backfeed the house with zero-export (not exceeding 7.68kW if necessary), charge batteries with excess power, supply additional power to downstream loads.

If you backfeed the grid, need to get utility involved. If zero-export but blending PV power with grid power, likely also.
If your system operates as double-conversion on-line UPS (Utility and PV charge batteries, AC created from batteries), likely not.



We don't use a lot of hot water, and gas bill is $8/month. Maybe electric would cost $80? Although, gas water heater has heat-loss path through flue, but electric can be better insulated. Other loads are what's killing you.

With Arizona sun, how about solar pre-heat water, solar clothes-line dryer?

Stove likely isn't operated enough hours to matter.

A/C is the killer. Look into its efficiency and duct sealing. If it is trying to condition the great outdoors, you lose.

This month July through August is always the highest usage I'm around 150 KWH a day. Duct work is sealed between flat roof and ceiling so it would mean lot of work to re-seal any duct work. I agree I would need a full solar permitted and contracted system if I wanted to hybrid grid tie and limit the feedback at that point might as well sell back in the winter. I could just start out with offloading the AC during the summer months then in the winter we don't use the heater at all even if it gets into the 20F range we like it cold. Probably why the AC is using so much energy we live in the wrong state but can't leave now until I retire. In the winter I would want to use the power for something else like pool pump, air compressor, stove. Electric stove pulls 4500 watts of power oven is in use. We do dry cloths outside we use off peak for drying but now off peak doesn't mean as much as it used to.

I have a hot water heat pump summertime I set it to 100% heat pump barely uses any power because the garage is so hot goes from 80-140F in 12-13 minutes. It's using about 1.5KWH a day in summer month in winter like January it gets up to 15-18 kwh a day. Disregard that temp to right saying average temp was 102F it reached 116F on 7/22.

 

[Badfrogg]

I am working it out now. I spent the weekend reading the Florida Building Code. I still have a long way to go still. I still haven't found the ordinances and regulations from the city yet. I know there are still prohibitions mandated from the power utility and their army of lobbyist. I will be working on it though. They want to keep me in the dark but I will acquire the knowledge.

 

[Badfrogg]

I have been studying the engineering side of solar for a year now. About A year ago I started by installing an energy monitor so I could analyze all my individual circuit usage. I also upgraded all appliances during the passed couple of years to the most energy efficient ones I could. Solar is way more expensive then appliances and I dont want to waste a single kwh.

 

[Consumerbot3418]

If your system operates as double-conversion on-line UPS (Utility and PV charge batteries, AC created from batteries), likely not.

@Hedges is probably right, but don't be like me, and drop your usage down to 0 for several months, attracting the attention of your utility. I got a phone call from their engineering department, and was told in no uncertain terms that I couldn't use my system in a UPS configuration (Sunny Island set to never backfeed) without going through their Net Metering process, complete with a visit from a state inspector. I've been through that process for my in-laws' install, but having batteries makes it too complicated to bother with.

This month July through August is always the highest usage I'm around 150 KWH a day.

This caught me off-guard. I commissioned my system in September last year, eeked through the winter, expecting summer to be easy, due to long days with plentiful sunshine. Turns out, even with upgraded windows and insulation, the AC eats up a massive amount of power when ambient reaches 100º+. I went into the summer expecting surplus production on sunny days, turns out I'm lucky to get the batteries fully charged! It looks like AC consumes circa 35-45 kWh/day on those 100º+ days for a 2000ft² house and 1000ft² garage, if we aren't cooking, drying clothes, etc. 10kW of panels just barely produces enough on a perfect, cloudless day.

I know there are still prohibitions mandated from the power utility and their army of lobbyist.

It always struck me as odd that Florida has so little rooftop solar. Hurricanes aside, seems like a perfect setup: shade the roof, and knock off peak power demand on the hottest days. Turns out, as you allude, there are rent-seeking vested interests at play. The utilities set up huge solar farms, but don't want customers to be able to profit from solar. I don't know if that's what's behind my utility's demands for Net Metering when I'd be doing zero export, but the cynic in me reckons they don't like competition.

 

[Badfrogg]

My wife and I live comfortably in our little 1500sf house here in Florida. It is a 1950s block on slab and we use 55kwh/day in the peak of summer and can be as low as 28kwh in the spring and fall. I run the A/C down to 70f. I have one window that is not replaced yet and it sweats like a beer can

 

[k490]

I am working it out now. I spent the weekend reading the Florida Building Code. I still have a long way to go still. I still haven't found the ordinances and regulations from the city yet. I know there are still prohibitions mandated from the power utility and their army of lobbyist. I will be working on it though. They want to keep me in the dark but I will acquire the knowledge.

Good luck with the city as I keep saying electric utilities are monopolies who don't like competition, they really don't like DIY competition. Their goal is to keep solar so expensive you won't buy it. They know how much a contractor cost most people the ROI is too long. Now have lot of videos I noticed on YouTube "The pitfalls of solar". The things they say don't even make any sense like they are reading a script being paid to make these videos.

 

[Badfrogg]

Oh, I know all about ROI. The only way that solar makes any sense is to build it yourself.

As far as the city rules, I just want to make sure that I know all of them. I may not ever set foot into a permitting office but I still need to know what my liability is.

 

[k490]

@Hedges is probably right, but don't be like me, and drop your usage down to 0 for several months, attracting the attention of your utility. I got a phone call from their engineering department, and was told in no uncertain terms that I couldn't use my system in a UPS configuration (Sunny Island set to never backfeed) without going through their Net Metering process, complete with a visit from a state inspector. I've been through that process for my in-laws' install, but having batteries makes it too complicated to bother with.




This caught me off-guard. I commissioned my system in September last year, eeked through the winter, expecting summer to be easy, due to long days with plentiful sunshine. Turns out, even with upgraded windows and insulation, the AC eats up a massive amount of power when ambient reaches 100º+. I went into the summer expecting surplus production on sunny days, turns out I'm lucky to get the batteries fully charged!




It always struck me as odd that Florida has so little rooftop solar. Hurricanes aside, seems like a perfect setup: shade the roof, and knock off peak power demand on the hottest days. Turns out, as you allude, there are rent-seeking vested interests at play. The utilities set up huge solar farms, but don't want customers to be able to profit from solar. I don't know if that's what's behind my utility's demands for Net Metering when I'd be doing zero export, but the cynic in me reckons they don't like competition.

This is what I fear about sudden reduction if KW usage with a non-permitted DIY solar system. I do know for a fact that utilities have entire departments dedicated to finding people who steal power. One way is looking for unusual unexplained drops in power usage. Does that mean they act on it who knows as many snowbirds as we have here that could explain it also. I would not be surprised at least someone would drive by the house take a look see if anyone is living at the home or not. If they see cars there they look further into it maybe send a utility worker there to inspect the meter see if someone has jumped it. I don't know if that department would take action after they saw solar panels on a roof and found the customer wasn't contracted.

I agree grid tied system have to be permitted and contracted. The problem also with that not DIY friendly you're not allowed to increase the panels or even the battery without their permission. The prohibition on adding to the battery size shows they only want to keep you from lowering your electric bill.

 

[Hedges]

This month July through August is always the highest usage I'm around 150 KWH a day.

That is a lot, and while days are longer, high temperatures reduce production and increase demand.
The most I've ever observed was just over 100 kWh/day, and that was a cool spring day.

If you get 6 hours effective sun, need about 25kW of inverter and 25kW (PTC or NOCT) of PV.
Two arrays tilted to about 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM summer sun, wired in parallel, could be better with flattened power curve. Then maybe 15kW or 20kW of inverter would effectively utilize the production

Duct work is sealed between flat roof and ceiling so it would mean lot of work to re-seal any duct work. I agree I would need a full solar permitted and contracted system if I wanted to hybrid grid tie and limit the feedback at that point might as well sell back in the winter. I could just start out with offloading the AC during the summer months

Consider a PV-direct A/C, hopefully designed to consume 100% of available PV. Have that on a thermostat set lower than your grid-powered central unit. That would use all available PV for cooling, only draw from grid when that is insufficient.

This PV direct mini-split might do it:

EG4 Hybrid Solar Mini-Split Air Conditioner Heat Pump AC/DC | 12000 BTU | SEER2 22 | Energy Star Certified | Plug-N-Cool Do-It-Yourself Installation

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

I'd like to boost efficiency of an AC by dumping heat to water instead of hot ambient air. Maybe a mist would help cool condenser, or maybe that would be a problem for corrosion or minerals - I would think the HVAC guys here have seen it tried. My A/C has a long copper tube from outside condenser to inside evaporator. I'd like to put a water jacket around that and circulate to pool.