Signature Solar wins... I lose.

[Buymysolar]

Curious on stats:
1) How many different shipping companies does SS use, and what are their damage rates?
2) Has anyone at SS spent time looking at the damaged pallet pictures and created an overlapping diagram, maybe there are 'zones' of damage that could be protected. (like a strip of 2x4 nailed to the pallet to protect the bottom 1-2" of the panels)

 

[timselectric]

Post covid
They can't afford to fire an incompetent forklift operator. Because they can't find a replacement.
And as stated, they have 1500 deliveries, 1000 trucks, and 500 drivers. Losing a few customers, that are shipping fragile items. Would be the easiest choice.

 

[forbin]

We take photos of 100% of shipments prior to being loaded and sent. Even with that proof, it is still sometimes hard to win freight claims.

As someone who is currently working with SS sales on a purchase, I appreciate the information you provided. What is the chief cause of damage in shipping? Is it mishandling by the shipper, or are panels so fragile that even bumpy roads can damage them? The reason I ask is because I live close enough to SS that I have the option to pick things up myself and drive them home in my own truck. However, we live up in the hills at the end of some seriously bumpy mountain trails. Whether you ship them or we pick them up, the last part of the trip will be in my pickup. Is that going to be a problem?

In my opinion, on your web site, you really need to explain in more clarity why you recommend that people buy more panels than they need "just in case," because it sounds like a ploy to sell more panels.

 

[timselectric]

As someone who is currently working with SS sales on a purchase, I appreciate the information you provided. What is the chief cause of damage in shipping? Is it mishandling by the shipper, or are panels so fragile that even bumpy roads can damage them? The reason I ask is because I live close enough to SS that I have the option to pick things up myself and drive them home in my own truck. However, we live up in the hills at the end of some seriously bumpy mountain trails. Whether you ship them or we pick them up, the last part of the trip will be in my pickup. Is that going to be a problem?

In my opinion, on your web site, you really need to explain in more clarity why you recommend that people buy more panels than they need "just in case," because it sounds like a ploy to sell more panels.

Most damage occurs at the shipping terminal. Loading and unloading trucks.

 

[42OhmsPA]

As someone who is currently working with SS sales on a purchase, I appreciate the information you provided. What is the chief cause of damage in shipping? Is it mishandling by the shipper, or are panels so fragile that even bumpy roads can damage them? The reason I ask is because I live close enough to SS that I have the option to pick things up myself and drive them home in my own truck. However, we live up in the hills at the end of some seriously bumpy mountain trails. Whether you ship them or we pick them up, the last part of the trip will be in my pickup. Is that going to be a problem?

In my opinion, on your web site, you really need to explain in more clarity why you recommend that people buy more panels than they need "just in case," because it sounds like a ploy to sell more panels.

Damage is occurring because people simply don't give a f anymore... It's more than likely not the transportation but the transporters... Ever drive a forklift and load trailers, stack pallets, test your depth perception? I have great respect for good drivers that are left... Unfortunately many are at a retirement age and I don't think driving a forklift was a part of any video games for younger drivers taking over.
I drove to NJ to haul 20, stacked, Q-Cells back to PA in the back of my Silverado. I swore after a couple pot holes I would have cracked panels, hell some were so loud my Dad heard them through the bluetooth. When I picked up my panels the driver put fork extensions on before even attempting to load them in my truck, he was younger so there is still hope ?.
I'd bet many freight terminals don't have the proper equipment to move panels, combine that with inexperienced drivers and/or those that lack a miniscule amount of common sense and you're asking for problems.
I've had my fair share of lazy and/or inexperienced equipment operators in my department at work. My favorite was the guy who sideswiped a steel barrier so hard he put the sweeper scrubber on 2 wheels and kept driving like nothing happened, then denied it the next day even though he was on camera ?.
I know there are still good freight companies out there as well as the employees to run them, just have to pay a premium.
Enough rambling.
Here's an idea, figure out a way to mount a hidden camera in a shipment of panels and see what kind of abuse or TLC they go through. Shouldn't be to difficult once you figure out how to see through the shrink-wrap, drill a small hole in the frame of a panel to hold the camera, plenty of space in between for a pi and battery pack.

 

[Danke]

 

[ncsolarelectric]

In my opinion, on your web site, you really need to explain in more clarity why you recommend that people buy more panels than they need "just in case," because it sounds like a ploy to sell more panels.

Our team services hundreds of sites throughout the southwest and over time, panels get broken. Older 60 cell panels are difficult to find and expensive when found. Had some of these farmers purchased half a dozen extra panels for their 100kW systems, they would've saved a lot of money and time replacing the broken ones. I have been in solar since 2010, and I have been advising people to buy extra panels since day one. Nobody listened to me either. Now, when some of these sites have broken panels, we need to sacrifice a string to get replacements to repair other strings because there are no matching panels to be had. Plan ahead!

 

[forbin]

Our team services hundreds of sites throughout the southwest and over time, panels get broken. Older 60 cell panels are difficult to find and expensive when found. Had some of these farmers purchased half a dozen extra panels for their 100kW systems, they would've saved a lot of money and time replacing the broken ones. I have been in solar since 2010, and I have been advising people to buy extra panels since day one. Nobody listened to me either. Now, when some of these sites have broken panels, we need to sacrifice a string to get replacements to repair other strings because there are no matching panels to be had. Plan ahead!

Your explanation is reasonable, and so is that of Signature Solar and other vendors who are saying the same thing. I don't have any problem with the logic. I'm saying that many people who are considering solar are, like me, new to the process. When we see a recommendation to buy extra panels "just in case," without helpful elaboration such as you just provided, we are skeptical because it comes off sounding a like, "Would you like fries with that?" In other words, it sounds like a sales technique. Maybe that's why more people don't take the recommendation seriously. I'm glad I stumbled across this thread or I might have not realized how important it is to order extra panels.

 

[computerguy]

I have been advising people to buy extra panels since day one. Nobody listened to me either. Now, when some of these sites have broken panels, we need to sacrifice a string to get replacements to repair other strings because there are no matching panels to be had. Plan ahead!

I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread. It seems prudent to me to buy 1-3 extra panels "counting" on some breakage during shipping. I had not thought of breakage down the line because I was considering better panels in the future but I did figure if you wound up with "extra" panels you would likely want more capacity in the future anyway.

Do you have a rule of thumb on buying extra?

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread. It seems prudent to me to buy 1-3 extra panels "counting" on some breakage during shipping. I had not thought of breakage down the line because I was considering better panels in the future but I did figure if you wound up with "extra" panels you would likely want more capacity in the future anyway.

Do you have a rule of thumb on buying extra?

It depends greatly on where you live. Tornados, vandalism, road gravel, giant hailstones, vehicle traffic, and probably others can all contribute to the risk. I've seen trucks back into solar canopies, farm vehicles cut the corner too sharp, panels stolen off the racks, and drunks having a contest to see who can get a bottle to "stick" into a solar panel. The damage that is done costs thousands!
As far as deliveries go, broken panels happen and it's never part of the plan because $$$. Personally, I've been lucky. The worst I've received is a scratched frame.

 

[forbin]

I live a couple of hours from Sig Solar HQ. I'll probably drive there and get my panels. Then I'll know they are being handled end-to-end by someone who really cares. The downside is that the only shipping company I can blame is me.

 

[JLBinTN]

I live a couple of hours from Sig Solar HQ. I'll probably drive there and get my panels. Then I'll know they are being handled end-to-end by someone who really cares. The downside is that the only shipping company I can blame is me.

I drove 250 miles round trip to pick up the last 20 panels I purchased. It was 100% worth it to not have to deal with waiting all day on the delivery truck to show up, and then having to worry about thoroughly inspecting the shipment while the delivery driver gives me the stink eye.

 

[forbin]

I drove 250 miles round trip to pick up the last 20 panels I purchased. It was 100% worth it to not have to deal with waiting all day on the delivery truck to show up, and then having to worry about thoroughly inspecting the shipment while the delivery driver gives me the stink eye.

That's a factor I had not considered. Yet another good reason to pick them up myself.

 

[JWLV]

The bigger the fragile label, the more likely the forklift driver takes on the personal challenge to drop kick it across the warehouse for a field goal.

I ordered 18 250W panels from a different company. The LTL shipping was incredibly costly. Prior to my order, I asked what the shipping difference was between 12 panels vs 15 vs 18. They said the difference was very little. I read the warnings to order more panels than needed in case of shipping damage. I only needed 12 panels but decided to order 18 since it added very little to the shipping cost, plus I could use the additional panels later on should I decide to upgrade later. And the extra panels would also serve as a buffer in case some of them were damaged during shipping. When the panels arrived the top panel was smashed. It appears they stacked something else on top of it since the frame was bent down. I noted that on the delivery paperwork that I signed. I also wrote on the paperwork that the remaining panels were not inspected due to time restraints; It would take too long to unbundle everything to inspect each individual panel. Later that day I inspected all of the remaining panels. Luckily the rest of them were fine. I submitted a claim the next day with photos of the smashed panel and the document I signed. This company also did not want to ship a single replacement panel. I understood that and I did not argue about that policy. I indicated that I could buy the same panel locally, but at a significantly greater cost (more than double) than what I paid to this company. They agreed to cover the cost for me to buy the replacement panel locally. In the end, I'm happy with the process because I understood why these policies exist. Shipping solar panels, especially large ones >250W are inherently risky. Shipping a small panel (100W) is a different story. You can ship 100W panels via UPS or any other commercial carrier. Large panels can only be shipped by LTL freight companies. You cannot expect that a pallet of large solar panels will arrive in the same condition as a laptop computer in a cardboard box. You also cannot expect the risks of shipping these items to be the same. It's apples and oranges. Policies exist because of these differences.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Hey all, just going to jump in here since this thread got a lot of replies since my last log in. I'll do my best to address each issue:

I have read the entire post and now ill give my 2 cents.

I'm sorry you feel that I don't provide good support. I do my best on here to find answers when no one else can or will, and be friendly. I don't think I've ever personally attacked anyone, I simply to to share the facts and the how and why of what Signature Solar (and most other companies) are doing. It's true - I don't always read all the terms and conditions of my cell phone or TV - but if I had a specific issue, and I took it in and the company showed me a specific line I checked during purchase that gave the specific outcome of that situation, I'd likely understand and be about my way. Yes - I did say that the shipping companies frequently do not pay for shipping. However - Signature Solar 100% of the time refunds (if less than 4 damaged panels) or replaces the panels for the customer. So they do make the customer whole in their purchase one way or another - regardless of whether they are re-imbursed by the shipping company.

shipping companies no longer give a crap about anybody's business dynamics or fixing their problems

YEP

The attitude is basically we have 1,000 Trucks and we have enough goods for 1,500 Trucks. Your product requires special treatment and on top of that you want us to pay for damages on super fragile items. No thanks!

YEP

Sure we could deal with Insurance on a high risk product but why bother when we have tons of other companies begging us to do deliveries.

YEP

They can not afford to lose customers due to to many damaged goods. If they have to eat the cost of 1 or 2 shipping's every 500 they will do that.

Shipping companies can 100% afford to lose a customer - especially one who is shipping fragile equipment and insurance and claims etc. The huge increase in shipping costs is because they have so many people clamoring to use them. If SS decided to stop shipping with X company today, they would have those trucks filled by the end of the day.

we catch hell if we damaged any items going in our out of that truck

Not anymore - they are begging for people to work right now and I talk to lots of truckers who tell me stories about new guys who barely know how to drive forklifts etc doing the loading anymore. By far, the largest cause of damage during shipping is happening at the stations and by forklift drivers (by a huge margin).

They don't give a crap about any threats we level on them or if we say we want to take our business elsewhere. They seem to welcome the idea of us going with another company. This has never been my experience before but it is the reality of dealing with them in July 2022 when drivers are short, Gas is expensive and they got a huge back log of stuff waiting to be delivered. Have fun with getting Signature Solar to change the dynamics. I don't think it's going to happen.

YEP

1) How many different shipping companies does SS use, and what are their damage rates?
2) Has anyone at SS spent time looking at the damaged pallet pictures and created an overlapping diagram, maybe there are 'zones' of damage that could be protected. (like a strip of 2x4 nailed to the pallet to protect the bottom 1-2" of the panels)

1 - It ranges but roughly 6 companies. Damage rates are slightly different between them but not so much that any one stands out.
2 - Yep, done this. Unfortunately there is no way to stop a forklift from putting a hole through the entire pallet of panels or ripping half the pallet out from under the panels and loading it anyways. We've tested about 1000 different ways of shipping these things I feel at this point and we've made our policy to allow us to sell panels at the least expensive price possible for end users.

Post covid
They can't afford to fire an incompetent forklift operator. Because they can't find a replacement.
And as stated, they have 1500 deliveries, 1000 trucks, and 500 drivers. Losing a few customers, that are shipping fragile items. Would be the easiest choice.

YEP

What is the chief cause of damage in shipping?

Forklift damage or other damage at terminals accounts for 99% of damage I'd say. If you live close enough to pick them up, even a bumpy road will be fine. Just don't drive a forklift fork through the thing and you'll be ahead of most shipping companies haha

In my opinion, on your web site, you really need to explain in more clarity why you recommend that people buy more panels than they need "just in case," because it sounds like a ploy to sell more panels.

I'll talk to SS about getting this done.

Damage is occurring because people simply don't give a f anymore

YEP to your entire post

If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to help.

 

[forbin]

I'll talk to SS about getting this done.

Okay, just don't talk to THE SS, because that's a whole 'nuther thing. I don't need that kind of trouble.

 

[Deleted member 1888]

Hey all, just going to jump in here since this thread got a lot of replies since my last log in. I'll do my best to address each issue:

I'm sorry you feel that I don't provide good support. I do my best on here to find answers when no one else can or will, and be friendly. I don't think I've ever personally attacked anyone, I simply to to share the facts and the how and why of what Signature Solar (and most other companies) are doing. It's true - I don't always read all the terms and conditions of my cell phone or TV - but if I had a specific issue, and I took it in and the company showed me a specific line I checked during purchase that gave the specific outcome of that situation, I'd likely understand and be about my way. Yes - I did say that the shipping companies frequently do not pay for shipping. However - Signature Solar 100% of the time refunds (if less than 4 damaged panels) or replaces the panels for the customer. So they do make the customer whole in their purchase one way or another - regardless of whether they are re-imbursed by the shipping company.

YEP

YEP

YEP

Shipping companies can 100% afford to lose a customer - especially one who is shipping fragile equipment and insurance and claims etc. The huge increase in shipping costs is because they have so many people clamoring to use them. If SS decided to stop shipping with X company today, they would have those trucks filled by the end of the day.

Not anymore - they are begging for people to work right now and I talk to lots of truckers who tell me stories about new guys who barely know how to drive forklifts etc doing the loading anymore. By far, the largest cause of damage during shipping is happening at the stations and by forklift drivers (by a huge margin).

YEP

1 - It ranges but roughly 6 companies. Damage rates are slightly different between them but not so much that any one stands out.
2 - Yep, done this. Unfortunately there is no way to stop a forklift from putting a hole through the entire pallet of panels or ripping half the pallet out from under the panels and loading it anyways. We've tested about 1000 different ways of shipping these things I feel at this point and we've made our policy to allow us to sell panels at the least expensive price possible for end users.

YEP

Forklift damage or other damage at terminals accounts for 99% of damage I'd say. If you live close enough to pick them up, even a bumpy road will be fine. Just don't drive a forklift fork through the thing and you'll be ahead of most shipping companies haha

I'll talk to SS about getting this done.

YEP to your entire post

If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to help.

That's fine you have shown me and maybe others that you are not a company I want to spend money with. You spend all this time making excuses for problems that other companies already solved. Maybe spend less time on the forums arguing and more time fixing the problem.
Nothing personal its just business.

 

[timselectric]

@RichardFromEG4 I for one appreciate the time you spend here. And you have proven to be an asset to the forum. I know that you have to put up with a lot of crap here. But, you continue to try and help everyone.
I just thought that it's important that you know that your efforts are appreciated.

 

[computerguy]

That's fine you have shown me and maybe others that you are not a company I want to spend money with. You spend all this time making excuses for problems that other companies already solved. Maybe spend less time on the forums arguing and more time fixing the problem.
Nothing personal its just business.

Quite the opposite here. I will buy from them BECAUSE they are on this forum. That is extra work and is called customer support. It would be much easier for them them to not be on here.

All that happened to the OP was life. You role with it and get on with your day.

 

[forbin]

Either I did something to make Signature Solar want to punish me or their shopping cart system had an aneurysm.