Is this a bad joke? Signature Solar creating specs requirements to avoid defective inverter costs?

[DanielS]

Yeah, there is entire professions that do this type of design work "not for free." I don't think anyone should be expecting that SS or Watts247 or any of the other "DISTRIBUTORS" should be held responsible for something now working they way you want or thought it should. There are a ton of reasons that things might not work correctly. This forum is intended for the community to help DIY folks to solve these problems.

I recently had a failure in an inverter and even though we (me or the distributor) can't pin point the cause of the failure, I'm happy with their response to replace the control board. Again that doesn't mean I can just hook everything back up and expect this problem not to return without doing something about it. It's possible the inverter just had a component failure, and it's also possible that I had something in my house cause a surge on the line.

In the end, this is DIY equipment and not engineered solutions for the plethora of different use cases that we try to put these devices through. I understand from a legal standpoint why they might be vague about installing information as there are so many different ways to connect these and some can be very dangerous. Even the great work that @Will Prowse does for this community can't cover all the different ways we try to use these things.

On the generator topic, I agree that it's likely best to have a separate 240VAC inverter that is just for your generator. That way it can operate completely independent of your Grid connection and PV and will only be DC coupled to your system rather than trying to charge batteries and pass-thru power to your loads.

 

[DanielS]

Here is a link that talks about utility power and THD limits set by IEEE. Transmission voltages below 69kv are limited to 3%THD, voltages between 69kv and 161kv are limited to 1.5% THD and above 161kv are limited to 1% THD. You will find this industry-wide.
II. Harmonic Limits
According to IEEE 519, harmonic voltage
distortion on power systems 69 kV and below is
limited to 5.0% total harmonic distortion (THD)
with each individual harmonic limited to 3%. The
current harmonic limits vary based on the short
circuit strength of the system they are being
injected into. Essentially, the more the system is
able to handle harmonic currents, the more the
customer is allowed to inject....

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/power-conditioners/harmonic-correction-unit/IEEE-std-519-1992-harmonic-limits.pdf

I agree, I've always heard up to 5%, but mine is consistently 2.5-3%

 

[robby]

You don’t need them, we have plenty of youtubers with a couple of years experience that know absolutely everything.

Not sure if your Joking but YouTubers are not going to help people with major system issues and most YouTubers only know the setup details of the system they use in their own house. Companies need to have Technicians who understand their product and are able to help customers.
It is obvious that Signature Solar does not have a single Electrical Engineer or even trained Technician on staff.
I could tell them how to solve that problem for cheap but I am kind of done giving them advice on how to fix their problems.

 

[DanielS]

Not sure if your Joking but YouTubers are not going to help people with major system issues and most YouTubers only know the setup details of the system they use in their own house. Companies need to have Technicians who understand their product and are able to help customers.
It is obvious that Signature Solar does not have a single Electrical Engineer or even trained Technician on staff.
I could tell them how to solve that problem for cheap but I am kind of done giving them advice on how to fix their problems.

Fair comment, but I don't think these Distributors should be expected to design systems for people. I agree with some of the comments/complaints, but again they are distributors, not the designer/manufacturer. Many of these devices are designed in countries with very different standards and we combine things together to get them to "work" here and the will 95% of the time, but we're accustom to grid CAIDI number of 6-8 hours a year, not, something broke and I have to fix it with a part that might take 2 weeks to get here.

So again, we're mostly all DIYrs here trying to implement cost effective solutions for our different needs. DIY always has it's hiccups, it's just we're dealing with thousands of dollars of equipment. I'm actually surprised there aren't more people getting injured with these systems than I hear.

 

[HighTechLab]

I don't think these Distributors should be expected to design systems for people

The problem is, some distributors have highly unknowledgeable "Technical Support" staff that give the impression that they will design functioning systems for presumptive customers. When these systems arrive in the field and don't work, they are nowhere to be found to stand behind the inaccurate information they have used to mislead the customer in order to close a sale.

EDIT: To further elaborate on my stance.. If a distributor is not a designer, then they shouldn't offer themselves to the customers as such. They should give the customers requesting this type of help a disclaimer that they can't give that type of help, and send the customer on their way.

 

[robby]

Fair comment, but I don't think these Distributors should be expected to design systems for people. I agree with some of the comments/complaints, but again they are distributors, not the designer/manufacturer. Many of these devices are designed in countries with very different standards and we combine things together to get them to "work" here and the will 95% of the time, but we're accustom to grid CAIDI number of 6-8 hours a year, not, something broke and I have to fix it with a part that might take 2 weeks to get here.

So again, we're mostly all DIYrs here trying to implement cost effective solutions for our different needs. DIY always has it's hiccups, it's just we're dealing with thousands of dollars of equipment. I'm actually surprised there aren't more people getting injured with these systems than I hear.

If they are a US Distributor they should have Wiring Diagrams for connecting the Inverter inside a home in a way that conforms to US Electrical Code. If your dealing with any of the other US inverter companies that is what is supplied in the manual. With SS you get users supplying you with wiring diagrams and then SS basically saying yes they are fine to use but we do not take any responsibility for what happens if you use them.

If the company has no clue how to program their own units or to do firmware updates then that is another serious issue.

If the company boast about closed loop communication with it's own batteries and inverter and cannot even provide a working cable to connect the two units together for months because they simply do no know which two wires to connect to which of the pins, then that is a problem.

IMHO any company that knows less about their own Inverters and Batteries than your average forum member should not be selling products to people. These things are not AAA battery toys. They have lethal voltages all over the place and and anyone that is going to attempt to Install one should at the very least have proper written guidance from the Manufacturer or Seller on how to do it safely.

 

[robby]

The problem is, some distributors have highly unknowledgeable "Technical Support" staff that give the impression that they will design functioning systems for presumptive customers. When these systems arrive in the field and don't work, they are nowhere to be found to stand behind the inaccurate information they have used to mislead the customer in order to close a sale.

EDIT: To further elaborate on my stance.. If a distributor is not a designer, then they shouldn't offer themselves to the customers as such. They should give the customers requesting this type of help a disclaimer that they can't give that type of help, and send the customer on their way.

Exactly! Just like it is when you deal with Amazon. They don't pretend to offer any kind of tech support and as such they provide the buyer with a no questions asked 30 day return policy with free shipping. With SS you have to publicly shame them into taking back a product that is defective all the while dealing with weeks/months of promises that guarantee enough delay that any kind of credit card reversal will be impossible.
Then if they take it back you pay shipping and a 40% restocking fee. Seriously a $1000 penalty for buying a bad $1500 battery.
Here's your $500 refund bye bye.

 

[DanielS]

Exactly! Just like it is when you deal with Amazon. They don't pretend to offer any kind of tech support and as such they provide the buyer with a no questions asked 30 day return policy with free shipping. With SS you have to publicly shame them into taking back a product that is defective all the while dealing with weeks/months of promises that guarantee enough delay that any kind of credit card reversal will be impossible.
Then if they take it back you pay shipping and a 40% restocking fee. Seriously a $1000 penalty for buying a bad $1500 battery.
Here's your $500 refund bye bye.

If they are a US Distributor they should have Wiring Diagrams for connecting the Inverter inside a home in a way that conforms to US Electrical Code. If your dealing with any of the other US inverter companies that is what is supplied in the manual. With SS you get users supplying you with wiring diagrams and then SS basically saying yes they are fine to use but we do not take any responsibility for what happens if you use them.

If the company has no clue how to program their own units or to do firmware updates then that is another serious issue.

If the company boast about closed loop communication with it's own batteries and inverter and cannot even provide a working cable to connect the two units together for months because they simply do no know which two wires to connect to which of the pins, then that is a problem.

IMHO any company that knows less about their own Inverters and Batteries than your average forum member should not be selling products to people. These things are not AAA battery toys. They have lethal voltages all over the place and and anyone that is going to attempt to Install one should at the very least have proper written guidance from the Manufacturer or Seller on how to do it safely.

If you believe they should have Code compliant connection diagrams then I don’t know what to tell you. You’re basically asking for an engineered design which no one would do. These are not appliances, should likely have electricians installing them and inspections.

Also don’t know why everyone is so obsessed with having the inverters and batteries communicating with each other, but okay.

Your last point is super valid!! Most people should not be trying to wire these if they don’t spend the time to properly design their system before hand. 100% lethal and dangerous and if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Only thing I really thought was odd was how much I had to dig to figure out how the inverters complete a N-G bond depending on the mode of operation.

Anyway, not here to argue with anyone I really just want everyone to realize these things aren’t simple and not for a weekend warrior that knows how to replace a receptacle or hang a light. Can people learn, of course, can people hurt themselves, sure, can people order $10K worth of stuff not really understanding how it works based off someone answering some emails about how the equipment should operate and then it not working, not really knowing why exactly and being mad at the person that sold it to you even though they didn’t design it, definitely.

 

[MrThisIsME]

Also don’t know why everyone is so obsessed with having the inverters and batteries communicating with each other, but okay.

Same thoughts. Of the ones integrated, I have seen little if benefit as most integrations are so shabby, they are worthless.

 

[robby]

Same thoughts. Of the ones integrated, I have seen little if benefit as most integrations are so shabby, they are worthless.

That's another problem. The integration is shabby and then couple that with the issues involved to just get it working and the end result is that it just gives closed loop communication a bad reputation.
If you have ever used a properly implemented system you would not want to go without it.

 

[robby]

If you believe they should have Code compliant connection diagrams then I don’t know what to tell you. You’re basically asking for an engineered design which no one would do. These are not appliances, should likely have electricians installing them and inspections.

Every big brand name Inverter system comes with a code compliant wiring example. Except for maybe Tesla who does not want anybody but themselves touching anything.
If you have a proper example it's not terribly difficult to adapt it to your own situation. As you stated SS has customers going into a tizzy because they just cannot figure out N-G bonding which is something other companies show you in their diagrams and which works in any mode of operation.

 

[DanielS]

The problem is, some distributors have highly unknowledgeable "Technical Support" staff that give the impression that they will design functioning systems for presumptive customers. When these systems arrive in the field and don't work, they are nowhere to be found to stand behind the inaccurate information they have used to mislead the customer in order to close a sale.

EDIT: To further elaborate on my stance.. If a distributor is not a designer, then they shouldn't offer themselves to the customers as such. They should give the customers requesting this type of help a disclaimer that they can't give that type of help, and send the customer on their way.

I’ve bought stuff from all 3 of you guys based off @Will Prowse ’s recommendations. Not one of you have tried to offer me design services or even pose as an expert. I think it’s pretty clear when you buy this equipment that there are tons of parts that are needed to make a complete solution. Even then you might not have it right. For any of you to do anything remotely close to

Every big brand name Inverter system comes with a code compliant wiring example. Except for maybe Tesla who does not want anybody but themselves touching anything.
If you have a proper example it's not terribly difficult to adapt it to your own situation. As you stated SS has customers going into a tizzy because they just cannot figure out N-G bonding which is something other companies show you in their diagrams and which works in any mode of operation.

Agree some of that could be documented better, but I was able to find it pretty quickly here…those in a tizzy are likely the same that don’t really know the difference between the neutral, ground, and why and where they should be bounded.

Again my posts are simply to say that Distributors of equipment that people want to buy shouldn’t be held so responsible for being experts on the various different products they supply. If anything they could just be processing warranty claims and passing people off to the manufacturers.

Could all of them do better on certain things sure. They definitely shouldn’t be “designing” systems for people as that would be practicing engineering without a license.

 

[robby]

I’ve bought stuff from all 3 of you guys based off @Will Prowse ’s recommendations. Not one of you have tried to offer me design services or even pose as an expert. I think it’s pretty clear when you buy this equipment that there are tons of parts that are needed to make a complete solution. Even then you might not have it right. For any of you to do anything remotely close to

I think current connected offers a very complete service on their batteries. I have not seen a single issue that was not addressed quickly and that also included wiring help. The difference is that Dexter knows that customer support is something best done off the forum, but we do see the OP's come back and say the issue was dealt with.
His competitor is not sure what they are doing so they need the forum community to supply them with info.
As for the Sol-Ark Inverters Current Connected sells, well those come with great service from Sol-Ark, so I don't see why he would get involved.

Agree some of that could be documented better, but I was able to find it pretty quickly here…those in a tizzy are likely the same that don’t really know the difference between the neutral, ground, and why and where they should be bounded.

The problem with the Bonding it was that it was not a straight forward case with SS so people had no clue as to what to do for the first few months. BTW remember, this was the Inverter that was introduced as being UL Listed and would pass inspection. Well that turned out to be false.

Again my posts are simply to say that Distributors of equipment that people want to buy shouldn’t be held so responsible for being experts on the various different products they supply. If anything they could just be processing warranty claims and passing people off to the manufacturers.

Good luck getting help from the Manufacturers in China. If they did that then everyone would just buy the stuff from Alibaba and save some cash. Setting shop up in America as a distributor and publishing a 5-10 Year Warranty policy implies that I will get service from them.

Could all of them do better on certain things sure. They definitely shouldn’t be “designing” systems for people as that would be practicing engineering without a license.

I am not expecting them to design a custom system for my house. What I am expecting is a template for a basic system that is up to code.

 

[Will Prowse]

I’ve bought stuff from all 3 of you guys based off @Will Prowse ’s recommendations. Not one of you have tried to offer me design services or even pose as an expert. I think it’s pretty clear when you buy this equipment that there are tons of parts that are needed to make a complete solution. Even then you might not have it right. For any of you to do anything remotely close to

Agree some of that could be documented better, but I was able to find it pretty quickly here…those in a tizzy are likely the same that don’t really know the difference between the neutral, ground, and why and where they should be bounded.

Again my posts are simply to say that Distributors of equipment that people want to buy shouldn’t be held so responsible for being experts on the various different products they supply. If anything they could just be processing warranty claims and passing people off to the manufacturers.

Could all of them do better on certain things sure. They definitely shouldn’t be “designing” systems for people as that would be practicing engineering without a license.

Expecting an equipment vendor to design anything is wild to me. When I buy a breadboard or microcontroller from an electronics distributor, I have never expected them to help me build a circuit.

I have no clue where people created this "support" expectation in a diy market. I have been part of diy drones, anamatronics, beam robotics and many others, and the solar crowd actually calls the distributors needing help. Why? I read the manual and find everything I need.

I think these vendors need to stop providing support. Leave it to the manufacturer or the manual to dictate how a product should be used. If it doesn't work as advertised or it is difficult to use, post a video on YouTube and show the world. These products are dead simple in my opinion. If there are hang ups, tell others.

 

[Will Prowse]

I think current connected offers a very complete service on their batteries. I have not seen a single issue that was not addressed quickly and that also included wiring help. The difference is that Dexter knows that customer support is something best done off the forum, but we do see the OP's come back and say the issue was dealt with.
His competitor is not sure what they are doing so they need the forum community to supply them with info.
As for the Sol-Ark Inverters Current Connected sells, well those come with great service from Sol-Ark, so I don't see why he would get involved.

The problem with the Bonding it was that it was not a straight forward case with SS so people had no clue as to what to do for the first few months. BTW remember, this was the Inverter that was introduced as being UL Listed and would pass inspection. Well that turned out to be false.

Good luck getting help from the Manufacturers in China. If they did that then everyone would just buy the stuff from Alibaba and save some cash. Setting shop up in America as a distributor and publishing a 5-10 Year Warranty policy implies that I will get service from them.

I am not expecting them to design a custom system for my house. What I am expecting is a template for a basic system that is up to code.

It really sounds like diy is not for you. Most of these Chinese inverters will not pass an inspection and are not designed to do so. And the wiring template or diagram is in the manual of these devices. I feel like I'm the only person who reads the manuals these days. Nearly everything you need is in there.

Yes true about UL1741 with the SS inverter. I was told it was listed by SS over the phone. Found out it was the same certificate that the lv6548 had all along. They considered the certificate as a "listing" for TUV. So I changed my website and that video to call it an Offgrid inverter. Technically it can pass inspection with that certificate, but it is not on the CEC list for example. So it really depends on where you live.

I think anyone who is looking for an equipment vendor to make a template or diagram (beyond the manufacturer manual) for them, should probably not be building diy solar systems at all.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

It's living, breathing documentation that is subject to interpretation and evolution with time.

Warranty Rules Aujourd Hui.

 

[robby]

Expecting an equipment vendor to design anything is wild to me. When I buy a breadboard or microcontroller from an electronics distributor, I have never expected them to help me build a circuit.

You almost always find a basic design circuit with every IC data sheet. Most microcontrollers not only come with a sample design that BTW is typically followed by most engineers but they will often also supply complete development boards so that an engineer can see if the Microcontroller is suitable for their application before they go out and start designing their own custom board.

I have no clue where people created this "support" expectation in a diy market. I have been part of diy drones, anamatronics, beam robotics and many others, and the solar crowd actually calls the distributors needing help. Why? I read the manual and find everything I need.

To build a DIY project one must at least have proper documentation on how each part functions and how it is connected to other parts. I see no difference with Inverters.

I think these vendors need to stop providing support. Leave it to the manufacturer or the manual to dictate how a product should be used. If it doesn't work as advertised or it is difficult to use, post a video on YouTube and show the world. These products are dead simple in my opinion. If there are hang ups, tell others.

That is up to them, but I suspect without support your going to find a whole different kind of vendor flooding the markets. Manufacturer support would also mean warranty support and I do not see any chance of a Chinese company providing that to individuals. As for the manuals, the Chinese made ones are typically a complete mess of contradicting information.

If Solar follows the path of almost every piece of consumer technology your going to see an evolution towards a more appliance based system. You are already seeing the DIY battery market dying out and in the coming years it is likely that any kind of knit together system is going to become less common place.
I remember messing around with DIY drones, that is practically dead and replaced by numerous pre built systems. I remember building controller systems for Salt Water Aquariums and that is dead and replaced by complete systems.
I use to build 16ft Satellite dishes in a garage in the 80s and by the 90s you could buy pre made one's for half the price, by the late 90s it was 18" Pizza dishes and DirecTV that took over the market and killed C-Band.

 

[robby]

It really sounds like diy is not for you. Most of these Chinese inverters will not pass an inspection and are not designed to do so. And the wiring template or diagram is in the manual of these devices. I feel like I'm the only person who reads the manuals these days. Nearly everything you need is in there.

I read the manuals also but some of these manuals are a complete mess.
I DIY everything with my system from design to buying the parts and installing them myself. The only thing I did not was put the panels up on the roof, I am not crazy enough at my age to work on a spanish clay tile roof two floors up, but I supervised every bit of work that was done on that roof via a Drone and HF radio.
In general though I am not into DIY batteries or Playing around with unknown equipment.
This thing powers my whole house and just like your home system I want it to be reliable.

Yes true about UL1741 with the SS inverter. I was told it was listed by SS over the phone. Found out it was the same certificate that the lv6548 had all along. They considered the certificate as a "listing" for TUV. So I changed my website and that video to call it an Offgrid inverter. Technically it can pass inspection with that certificate, but it is not on the CEC list for example. So it really depends on where you live.

Agree.

I think anyone who is looking for an equipment vendor to make a template or diagram (beyond the manufacturer manual) for them, should probably not be building diy solar systems at all.

Well I disagree, I think a basic wiring Diagram supplied with the Inverter is not to much to ask for.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Expecting an equipment vendor to design anything is wild to me. When I buy a breadboard or microcontroller from an electronics distributor, I have never expected them to help me build a circuit.

I have no clue where people created this "support" expectation in a diy market. I have been part of diy drones, anamatronics, beam robotics and many others, and the solar crowd actually calls the distributors needing help. Why? I read the manual and find everything I need.

I think these vendors need to stop providing support. Leave it to the manufacturer or the manual to dictate how a product should be used. If it doesn't work as advertised or it is difficult to use, post a video on YouTube and show the world. These products are dead simple in my opinion. If there are hang ups, tell others.

When I began in the electrical business back in the 1970s as a young man the DIYer could not just walk into an electrical supply house (vendor) and buy just any part he wanted. That's what the hardware store was about and choices were limited. The electrical supply house (vendor) was not there for the DIYer it was there for the C10 electrical contractor and the parts guy all the way up to the warehouse boss didn't have to know crap about how to wire an Allen Bradley reversing contactor, much less how to wire a programmable controller. If you as the electrician had to ask the counter guy about that, you obviously weren't qualified to install it. There were manufacturers that experienced electricians knew to avoid even though the vendor still offered them for sale.
Today any DIYer can walk into an electrical supply house (local vendor) and purchase any part they want or think they need, but the guy behind the counter is still that same guy. His job is to sell you what you came in for, not to tell you how to use it. If you are lucky he knows exactly what shelf it is located on so you can get it and go. There's an old time hardware store in the town I'm in now that if you need advice on how to build anything, all you need do is ask Sammy behind the counter. He'll fix ya right up. No guarantees but at least he knows what shelf it's on!
If I as the contractor bought a faulty relay from the supply house it was up to me to return it for replacement. The problem DIYers face today is there isn't a local supply house they can walk into to purchase their solar equipment. It's always 1000 miles away. That's our hill to climb, not Signature Solar's. If you're 1000 miles away and you don't want to drive it, then you need to pay shipping, both ways should the need arise. I'll make the 5 hour one way drive if I choose them as my vendor for large expensive equipment.
Due diligence is our responsibility before making the final decision on the type and brand of equipment we choose.
Not sure what to say about DIYers not being able to scratch out their own wiring diagram on a note pad? And there's apps for making formal drawings...DO IT YOURSELF! I'd worry for their safety and the safety of others if a qualified electrician wasn't watching over their shoulder.

 

[DanielS]

It really sounds like diy is not for you. Most of these Chinese inverters will not pass an inspection and are not designed to do so. And the wiring template or diagram is in the manual of these devices. I feel like I'm the only person who reads the manuals these days. Nearly everything you need is in there.

Yes true about UL1741 with the SS inverter. I was told it was listed by SS over the phone. Found out it was the same certificate that the lv6548 had all along. They considered the certificate as a "listing" for TUV. So I changed my website and that video to call it an Offgrid inverter. Technically it can pass inspection with that certificate, but it is not on the CEC list for example. So it really depends on where you live.

I think anyone who is looking for an equipment vendor to make a template or diagram (beyond the manufacturer manual) for them, should probably not be building diy solar systems at all.

Yeah I give up…I think when people drop several $K on equipment, they are either deathly mad at the distributor because it doesn’t work the way they understood or deathly loyal to it because it does.

I’m not sure I understand the comments about Chinese stuff being used by DIYrs and then years later there being better engineered equipment that is either well documented or idiot proof coming out…Almost everything is like that… DIYrs fiigure out all the use cases, manufacturers make incremental improvements, make it cheaper, and easier to use and the masses buy them. Once the cheap Chinese stuff is able to copy the best equipment then the company that had the best either outsources everything or goes out of business.

@Ozark Tinkering said it best above! You can’t expect these guys that have been in this industry maybe less time than many on this forum to be product experts, especially when they are 1000s of miles away and have no idea what you are actually trying to do in your particular conditions. I think they do their best especially with the massive amount of sales they are trying to keep up with. @Will Prowse has created confidence in a lot of people to get out there and do this stuff. He also tells them they need to read and educate themselves, unfortunately I don’t think they all see that awesome “Rant” video from him. There are tons of questions on here that are basic questions straight out of the manuals. I completely agree that some of these manuals are poor. I also couldn’t spend so much money on Sol-Arks. Everyone says they are the best and likely are, just out of the price range I couldn’t get the wife to agree to on my “hair-brained” DIY project.

So this debate here should likely be more about the fact that if you don’t know what you’re doing then learn, design, learn, design, purchase, install, learn, fail a little, learn, fix, learn, tweek. If that’s not for you then you should hire a pro to come in to do it so you can call them if it doesn’t work or breaks for whatever reason. or hire the best in market equipment that is idiot proof. Even if you look at Sol-Ark, they evolve their equipment, learn more about how we use their equipment, etc. I’m sure if I dig around enough I can find people complaining about them too, but I digress.