AIO / battery trouble for months now.........

[bc thunder]

New member, hope this is the proper thread....
Aug/21 I bought the 24v mpp AIO and four 6v 230ah gc batteries, and one 440w bifaical panel.
Good sun for 4hrs
I was underwelmed. I was told that's normal fro newbies, gobuy more.
I bought four more batteries of the same make, and one more 440 panel.
Still underwelmed, getting only 7 or 8 hours, using 100/150watts (that's all I have or need).
Then the AIO display started showing my brand new fridge using 165 watts instead of its normal 100watts, a few days later the fridge quit.
And I became aware the batteries were fast to recharge (20mins bulk). fast to charge/fast to depleat. FWIW I being new probably was not chrging them enough, as I was going by the display reading for SOC.
I finally bought the equiptment I should already have had, volt meter, and load tester were normal, but hydrometer read about 80% as my full SOC
The AIO started to not show watts being used (out going usage) and began turning off/on quickly 4/5 times in a row, once per day, daily or everyother day.
I replaced the 8 batteries with 4new of the same make, I tested them before putting into use. They were as low as 30%. I charged them as best I could with an old 40a charger and my honda 2200i. 90% was the best I could do, and tried them out. These alsogave me only 4 hrs approx @ 100/150watts.
I then bought a summet ll 24volt gc battery charger and using the balance mode, received the wifi data as having only 36ah of a possible 230.
Tired of it all, I also charged one old string of four 6v gc. they read 26ahs. I then hooked up both strings 0f four in series and parrl.
As the summet had stated I ran for about 6hrs to 60%. I then charged with the honda as usual. The next day I did the same, but when I stated the honda, after 90secs it began reving crazy high. I ran back to the shed and it was smoking. I shut it off and it would not start. Two hrs later it fired up, but I will not risk that again.
I will happily replace/fix any problem, but just don"t know what that is. Batteries??? AIO??? both??? Something else???
I have been getting help on small cabin forum, but we have not cracked the case!
A DIY member here reached out to me and suggested I try here.
PLEASE, if anyone here see's the problem, I"m out of answers, and out of my mind.......
Soory for my lack of tech knowledge, if you need more info, I'm happy to stumble along finding fro you.....
THANK YOU

 

[bc thunder]

https://watts247.com/product/pip-lv2424-msd/

 

[sunshine_eggo]

New member, hope this is the proper thread....
Aug/21 I bought the 24v mpp AIO and four 6v 230ah gc batteries, and one 440w bifaical panel.

What unit?

Good sun for 4hrs

Is this solar hours or actual hours, i.e., the panel only experiences 4 hours of sun per day due to shading?

"Solar hours" means the equivalent full power hours, i.e., you get 4 equivalent full-power hours from all day exposure. "Good" solar is 5+ hours per day even with summer exposure, sunrise to sunset, of 12+ hours.

I was underwelmed. I was told that's normal fro newbies, gobuy more.

Quantify.

I bought four more batteries of the same make, and one more 440 panel.

Batteries determine how long you can go without charging. Panels and your available solar determine how much you can use per day.

Still underwelmed, getting only 7 or 8 hours, using 100/150watts (that's all I have or need).

Have you measured this?

Then the AIO display started showing my brand new fridge using 165 watts instead of its normal 100watts, a few days later the fridge quit.

If you're saying the fridge failed and no longer works, an increase in power consumption prior to failure isn't unexpected.

And I became aware the batteries were fast to recharge (20mins bulk). fast to charge/fast to depleat. FWIW I being new probably was not chrging them enough, as I was going by the display reading for SOC.

The SoC display is worthless.

I finally bought the equiptment I should already have had, volt meter, and load tester were normal, but hydrometer read about 80% as my full SOC
The AIO started to not show watts being used (out going usage) and began turning off/on quickly 4/5 times in a row, once per day, daily or everyother day.
I replaced the 8 batteries with 4new of the same make, I tested them before putting into use. They were as low as 30%. I charged them as best I could with an old 40a charger and my honda 2200i. 90% was the best I could do, and tried them out. These alsogave me only 4 hrs approx @ 100/150watts.

Provide a list of the items you're powering.

I then bought a summet ll 24volt gc battery charger and using the balance mode, received the wifi data as having only 36ah of a possible 230.
Tired of it all, I also charged one old string of four 6v gc. they read 26ahs. I then hooked up both strings 0f four in series and parrl.
As the summet had stated I ran for about 6hrs to 60%. I then charged with the honda as usual. The next day I did the same, but when I stated the honda, after 90secs it began reving crazy high. I ran back to the shed and it was smoking. I shut it off and it would not start. Two hrs later it fired up, but I will not risk that again.
I will happily replace/fix any problem, but just don"t know what that is. Batteries??? AIO??? both??? Something else???
I have been getting help on small cabin forum, but we have not cracked the case!
A DIY member here reached out to me and suggested I try here.
PLEASE, if anyone here see's the problem, I"m out of answers, and out of my mind.......
Soory for my lack of tech knowledge, if you need more info, I'm happy to stumble along finding fro you.....
THANK YOU

You need to be more specific.

MPP model - PIP LV2424 HV or MSD?
MPP settings.
Location.
Start and end time where sun hits the panel(s).
A list of all items powered and their consumption.
GC battery models and actual specific gravity readings.

 

[Steve_S]

Welcome and glad you made it over here from SC, hey, even Creeky lurked in here for a bit and vanished.

This is the AIO he Bought. https://watts247.com/product/pip-lv2424-msd/
Link to manual: http://watts247.com/manuals/mpp/PIP-LV 110_120VAC/PIP-MS LV 1KVA 1-5KVA manual-20200318.pdf

His place is within a deep forest and as a result, has limited solar exposure due to the trees.
I've already asked him to compile the list of stuff he has and to post any diagrams, pictures available to help.

BC PLEASE NOTE, you overheated & over ran the Honda, surprising that it still runs considering it did not go into safe mode and shutdown once output limits got exceeded... It should have ! Check & change your oil, check filters etc and look at the spark plug too (what colour is it, can indicate possible damage by colour). From this point until properly checked out, exercise caution with it. Something IS wrong because it did not shutoff when it should have.

I'll tag this thread to watch it (I don't do that much anymore - it got nuts after a while).
Steve

 

[bc thunder]

Thanks for That Steve
And thanks for responding Sunshine eggo
I get good sun in summer, not great right now thru dec
4 sun hrs 12pm-4pm (some shading before and after)
I was underwhelmed with battery storage cap. (has only ever been 4 hrs per string approx)
The 7/8 hrs confirmed with vmeter and hydrometer
I'm powering: starlink 80w average (is more on startup for 60sec)
TV 30w
laptop charger 30w
led light bulb 5w
AIO idle draw 38w? (I'm told from dealer)
The tv and laptop charger are not in use at the same time.
These are all I have, and not offen ran all at once.
MPP piplv2424
Northern Ontario Canada
Good sun from 12-4 much less reliable now in winter
Motomaster nautilus group size gc2 6volt deep cycle 230ah
SG last readings prior to hook up:
1.275 1.270 1.300
1.270 1.270 1.280
1.285 1.275 1.270
1.290 1.285 1.280
all readings are not ajusted for temp, and taken at 0c
Sorry my notes are becoming to many to keep track of....
Bat 1 cell 3 gave me some pause, so I tried swoping with my best extra battery, but it did not make any difference to run time.
MPP settings:
1)ut1
2)60a
3)apl
4)sds
5)fld
6)Ltd
7)ttd
8)120v
9)60h
11)60a
12)23.0
13)27.0
16snu
18)6of
19)l-Ep
20)Lon
22)Aon
23)byd
25)fds
26)29.2
27)27.0
29)21.0 (I know is too low, I only go down to 60%. Turned off if I leave.) default
31)sbd
#28 #30 not shown in my manual, but as follows
28)51g
30)one
Again, Thank you for doing this.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Thanks for That Steve
And thanks for responding Sunshine eggo
I get good sun in summer, not great right now thru dec
4 sun hrs 12pm-4pm (some shading before and after)
I was underwhelmed with battery storage cap. (has only ever been 4 hrs per string approx)
The 7/8 hrs confirmed with vmeter and hydrometer
I'm powering: starlink 80w average (is more on startup for 60sec)

24 hours?

TV 30w

hours/day?

laptop charger 30w

hours/day?

led light bulb 5w

hours/day?

AIO idle draw 38w? (I'm told from dealer)

That's on the low end. Can be as high as 50W

The tv and laptop charger are not in use at the same time.
These are all I have, and not offen ran all at once.
MPP piplv2424
Northern Ontario Canada
Good sun from 12-4 much less reliable now in winter
Motomaster nautilus group size gc2 6volt deep cycle 230ah

You have crap sun.

SG last readings prior to hook up:
1.275 1.270 1.300
1.270 1.270 1.280
1.285 1.275 1.270
1.290 1.285 1.280

All above 1.265, and all within 0.03 of each other - no worries.

More in a bit, but let's look at the known loads:

80W * 24h = 1.92kWh
38W * 24h = 0.92kWh

Assuming a residential fridge was used. A full size one uses 2-2.5kWh/day.

Looking at just the starlink and inverter load, you need at least 2.84kWh/day of solar harvest.

Here's solar data near Thunder Bay. If you're north of that, it's worse:



If your panels received sun ALL DAY and were tilted at a steep 72° angle for winter production facing due south, you could get:

2.71 * 0.88kW (880W) = 2.4kWh

Note that the monthly numbers above factor in average weather conditions for any given day.

Given your limited solar exposure, you're likely producing less than half that, so producing 1.2kWh/day vs. loads of >2.8kWh/day.

Classic case of over-use and under-production. You're NEVER getting the battery fully charged with solar.

You need an ass-ton more solar panels, and you need better solar exposure. You already have TOO MUCH battery for your limited solar, i.e., charging lead acid at too low of a current can degrade them.

460Ah of batteries needs at least 46A of charging... preferably 63A to allow for the fact that solar doesn't often perform at peak.

24V * 63A = 1512W.

6 440W panels MIGHT just barely meet your needs. 8 would probably be better. Yes, this is way more than your MPPT can handle, but you will likely never produce peak power from them.

Lastly, even PARTIAL shading of a panel can dramatically reduce its production. Crap audio, but illustrative:

 

[bc thunder]

Thanks
Nothing runs 24hrs, even when I had the fridge, turned it off at 10pmtill 5am
ave about 4hrs internet on
tv maybe 2hrs on
laptop idk maybe 1.hrs?
light off most of the time 2hrs
lol yes all of canada has crap sun
It's true not much sun here, but I have been using the honda to charge up batteries. About 6hrs day. three at night then three in morning. Try to use batteies in the day, when there is some sun.
Why would the honda generator rev high, and over heat when charging the system.
Thanks

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Thanks
Nothing runs 24hrs, even when I had the fridge, turned it off at 10pmtill 5am

That's still 17 hours per day. 17/24 * 2kWh = 1.4kWh

What about the inverter? Do you turn it off?

ave about 4hrs internet on
tv maybe 2hrs on
laptop idk maybe 1.hrs?
light off most of the time 2hrs

That's quite a bit lower.

lol yes all of canada has crap sun
It's true not much sun here, but I have been using the honda to charge up batteries. About 6hrs day. three at night then three in morning. Try to use batteies in the day, when there is some sun.
Why would the honda generator rev high, and over heat when charging the system.

@Steve_S posted:

BC PLEASE NOTE, you overheated & over ran the Honda, surprising that it still runs considering it did not go into safe mode and shutdown once output limits got exceeded... It should have ! Check & change your oil, check filters etc and look at the spark plug too (what colour is it, can indicate possible damage by colour). From this point until properly checked out, exercise caution with it. Something IS wrong because it did not shutoff when it should have.

Going back to something you posted... 30% for a new battery? Specific gravity? If so, that's very unfortunate. IMHO, one should not buy a new battery at unless 6.25V or greater and at least 70-80% SoC on specific gravity. When possible, I won't purchase a battery that's older than 3 months. Batteries at lower states of charge eat themselves and can sustain permanent capacity loss depending how long they sit.

Have you checked the individual 6V battery voltages? A single bad cell in one battery can cause early shutdown. I would check their individual voltages at peak charge, somewhere in the mid range and then shortly before termination. You may find you have a turd or two in there. Any of the "30%" batteries are automatically suspect. Also worth checking SG at least at the low end when they crap out.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

MPP settings:
1)ut1
2)60a

Would max that out. It's solar+utility

3)apl
4)sds
5)fld
6)Ltd
7)ttd
8)120v
9)60h
11)60a

Might want to back this one off a little to reduce the load on the generator. When you are charging AND using loads, you may pull too much from the generator.

12)23.0
13)27.0

As I understand it, these should have no impact with your 01:ut1 setting.

16snu
18)6of
19)l-Ep
20)Lon
22)Aon
23)byd
25)fds

26)29.2
27)27.0

To use these I believe you have to set 05:USE

If set to FLD, I think you're stuck with 28.2/27.0, respectively.

29)21.0 (I know is too low, I only go down to 60%. Turned off if I leave.) default

Okay... I think we just found your problem. Are you basing your run times off the 60% mark?

If that's the case, then you have to remember the % value reported by the MPP display is complete and total garbage. I can't emphasize that enough. You should pretend it doesn't exist. It's shit. You are likely shutting the unit down when the batteries still have 80-90% of their capacity.

When you are shutting down at 60%, what is the battery voltage?

31)sbd

Don't think this applies to your unit.

#28 #30 not shown in my manual, but as follows
28)51g
30)one
Again, Thank you for doing this.

No worries.

 

[bc thunder]

Yes, the 17hrs is still alot for sure, but that was in summer, when I had good sun to cover most of that. But I don't have that fridge now.
Yes, I turn the inverter off. Generally about 9:30pm till 500am, and if I step out for more than an hour.
I can turn that #2 up till 140a???
I will dial back that #11 60a at the generator to see if that helps, maybe 40A??? But it was not a problem till last night, and only took 90secs from pluged in to smoking out....... I'm scared to lose my honda next. Is it possible the AIO can backfeed?
I set #5 to user to turn those up, and then switched back to fld, but still at 29.2, and 27. Should I set those back down to 28.2, 27?
Volt meter always agrees with the batteries. If display shows full soc, vmeter reads 6.4 When display reads 24, vmeter reads 6.1
This idea was already presented to me, but seems to not be the case. lol I have heard the displays are shit once or twice before. If I can get this system even half way decent, I'll happily buy a bms.
Yes, 30% soc as read by hydrometer. I didn't find any short/open cells. It seems they just aren't capable of 100% capacity, but I don't want to go get more, only to find out the AIO is defective.
My believe is that all the batteries I recieved were bad, my inexpeirence probably didn't help, but the last 4 for sure were not good. They are the same batch and are now 4months old. If buying new batteries, I am much more savey now..........

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Yes, the 17hrs is still alot for sure, but that was in summer, when I had good sun to cover most of that. But I don't have that fridge now.
Yes, I turn the inverter off. Generally about 9:30pm till 500am, and if I step out for more than an hour.
I can turn that #2 up till 140a???

If it will go that high. Never want to limit solar.

I will dial back that #11 60a at the generator to see if that helps, maybe 40A??? But it was not a problem till last night, and only took 90secs from pluged in to smoking out....... I'm scared to lose my honda next.

40A sounds reasonable. Consider that when the unit is charging, it can't invert, so your generator is also powering ALL of your loads in addition to charging your battery.

Is it possible the AIO can backfeed?

I don't believe so.

I set #5 to user to turn those up, and then switched back to fld, but still at 29.2, and 27. Should I set those back down to 28.2, 27?

If you want to use 29.2, I think you have to switch it back to USE. When you turn it back to FLD, I believe it reverts to 28.2. Your battery SG values suggest they are getting fully charged.

Volt meter always agrees with the batteries. If display shows full soc, vmeter reads 6.4 When display reads 24, vmeter reads 6.1

Just to clarify, do all 4 6V in the 24V string measure the same voltage?

This idea was already presented to me, but seems to not be the case. lol I have heard the displays are shit once or twice before. If I can get this system even half way decent, I'll happily buy a bms.

PLEASE do this for me: Right BEFORE you turn the inverter off tonight, record the battery voltage AT the battery with a meter and record ONE cell's SG.

In the morning, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING AT ALL (everything stays off), record the battery voltage AT the battery with a meter and record the same cell's SG. If you can measure the battery current, record it.

I assume you know the proper technique for checking SG, but just in case: Suck in, expel, suck in, expel, suck in, read value.

Times and temperatures for the two readings would help. Sample data table:

Condition	Time	Current	Temperature	Meter Voltage at battery	Single cell SG
Prior to shut down
Before power-on		0A

Once you have collected the data, resume normal activities.

Yes, 30% soc as read by hydrometer. I didn't find any short/open cells. It seems they just aren't capable of 100% capacity, but I don't want to go get more, only to find out the AIO is defective.

A 230Ah battery that has sat on the store shelf for 6 months and measures 30% according to SG will NOT meet 100% capacity. It MIGHT after equalization.

My believe is that all the batteries I recieved were bad, my inexpeirence probably didn't help, but the last 4 for sure were not good. They are the same batch and are now 4months old. If buying new batteries, I am much more savey now..........

This was my first impression until you indicated that you are shutting it off manually when it says 60%. It's likely a combination of the two: 1) you are shutting it down when it has a lot more to give, and 2) they likely don't meet spec, but probably far more than your experience suggests.

 

[bc thunder]

If it will go that high. Never want to limit solar.

I'm on it.

40A sounds reasonable. Consider that when the unit is charging, it can't invert, so your generator is also powering ALL of your loads in addition to charging your battery.

This sounds like a very reasonable probability, I ended up at 30A.

If you want to use 29.2, I think you have to switch it back to USE. When you turn it back to FLD, I believe it reverts to 28.2. Your battery SG values suggest they are getting fully charged.

I didn't think it was possible either, but got messing with one day, and I'm set on fld, and at 29.2 / 27.0

Just to clarify, do all 4 6V in the 24V string measure the same voltage?

Yes

PLEASE do this for me: Right BEFORE you turn the inverter off tonight, record the battery voltage AT the battery with a meter and record ONE cell's SG.

In the morning, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING AT ALL (everything stays off), record the battery voltage AT the battery with a meter and record the same cell's SG. If you can measure the battery current, record it.

I will do, and report back in the morning.....

I assume you know the proper technique for checking SG, but just in case: Suck in, expel, suck in, expel, suck in, read value.

I had not heard that before, only rince after, but will start doing it that way now, Thankyou

This was my first impression until you indicated that you are shutting it off manually when it says 60%. It's likely a combination of the two: 1) you are shutting it down when it has a lot more to give, and 2) they likely don't meet spec, but probably far more than your experience suggests.

I would be happy with that result.
I sure do appreciate your time, and knowledge, Thank you

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I'm on it.

This sounds like a very reasonable probability, I ended up at 30A.

30A * 29.2 = 876W peak from the generator. Might prove to be too low to get you charged in the allotted time, but it gives you ~1300W overhead for loads.

I didn't think it was possible either, but got messing with one day, and I'm set on fld, and at 29.2 / 27.0

If it works, it works. 29.2 I generally a good absorption voltage. MIGHT consider 27.2V for float primarily for solar charging.

Yes

I will do, and report back in the morning.....

I had not heard that before, only rince after, but will start doing it that way now, Thankyou

Yeah, the electrolyte can be a little stratified. The two fills and purges prior to the reading help ensure it is mixed more uniformly and yields a more accurate reading.

I would be happy with that result.

It's probably worth your while to get an actual battery monitor that can report state of charge. They're incredibly useful. If you're willing to invest in a Victron Smartshunt, they factor in temperature effects (cold batteries have less capacity) and current effects (230Ah is based on delivering 230Ah/20h = 11.5A for 20 hours. Use more than 11.5A, you get less than 230Ah - called the Peukert effect). For about 1/3 as much, you can get a basic one, but it doesn't take any of those into consideration, is less accurate and will routinely report an optimistic SoC.

I sure do appreciate your time, and knowledge, Thank you

Happy to help. Looking forward to seeing the data tomorrow!

Another thing... I don't believe the charger is capable of temperature compensation. Lead-acid needs higher charge voltages when cold and lower charge voltages when warm. The 29.2V is at 25°C. At 0°C, the same charge voltage would be 30.7V (-60mV/°C for 24V battery), so you're likely under-charging a bit anyway on a voltage basis, but the SG numbers are in a healthy range.

 

[HRTKD]

The Honda generators are fairly hardy. They'll produce an error light if they are low on oil as I recall. But you need to see the light and act on that. They must be level. Otherwise, they're hard to kill.

When you say it was smoking, was that an electric or plastic smoke? Or was the smoke coming out the exhaust?

I would check the oil level and if good, fire it up and let it run without a load on it. The generators will spin up the RPM when the load increases. If you had it on ECO mode it may not have been able to spin up to the 100% RPM level. I don't own a Honda generator, but I've work on the ones a friend has. If he can't kill them (not for lack of trying) then you probably didn't either. If you draw too much current they'll simply turn off.

 

[bc thunder]

30A * 29.2 = 876W peak from the generator. Might prove to be too low to get you charged in the allotted time, but it gives you ~1300W overhead for loads.

Maybe I'll put it at 40a, I don't need that much overhead.

MIGHT consider 27.2V for float primarily for solar charging.

Not sure I can goto 27.2, but will try.

t's probably worth your while to get an actual battery monitor that can report state of charge. They're incredibly useful. If you're willing to invest in a Victron Smartshunt, they factor in temperature effects (cold batteries have less capacity) and current effects (230Ah is based on delivering 230Ah/20h = 11.5A for 20 hours. Use more than 11.5A, you get less than 230Ah - called the Peukert effect). For about 1/3 as much, you can get a basic one, but it doesn't take any of those into consideration, is less optimistic and will routinely report an optimistic SoC.

Will look into this for sure.

Another thing... I don't believe the charger is capable of temperature compensation. Lead-acid needs higher charge voltages when cold and lower charge voltages when warm. The 29.2V is at 25°C. At 0°C, the same charge voltage would be 30.7V (-60mV/°C for 24V battery), so you're likely under-charging a bit anyway on a voltage basis, but the SG numbers are in a healthy range

Good to know.
Thanks again....

 

[sunshine_eggo]

It's probably worth your while to get an actual battery monitor that can report state of charge. They're incredibly useful. If you're willing to invest in a Victron Smartshunt, they factor in temperature effects (cold batteries have less capacity) and current effects (230Ah is based on delivering 230Ah/20h = 11.5A for 20 hours. Use more than 11.5A, you get less than 230Ah - called the Peukert effect). For about 1/3 as much, you can get a basic one, but it doesn't take any of those into consideration, is less accurate and will routinely report an optimistic SoC.

Corrected my post above.

 

[bc thunder]

Or was the smoke coming out the exhaust

Yes smoking out the exhast, but not in a normal way, more smoke and coming from behind the shroud. Also a burning smell, maybe plastic, not to sure.

If you draw too much current they'll simply turn off.

Ya that's what concerned me, it was going to burn out, not turn off. It wouldn't restart for two hrs.
I think I was running at peak watts, but the surge just went too long. Never seen anything like that from them before.
Thanks for responding......

 

[HRTKD]

I would take the generator in for service. It's hard to say where the problem is. It could be simple, but maybe not. Better to have it in a reliable state than always worrying about it.

My Onan generator has 750+ hours on it. I caused it to shutdown once because the trailer was far from level, so it thought the oil was low.

 

[bc thunder]

My Onan generator has 750+ hours on it. I caused it to shutdown once because the trailer was far from level, so it thought the oil was low.

I have before, changed the oil, and not quite filled it high enough. It starts and them shuts down. But that was not this.......

I would take the generator in for service. It's hard to say where the problem is. It could be simple, but maybe not. Better to have it in a reliable state than always worrying about it.

I think your are right about this, I called the dealer and I'm still under waranty. It seems fine, but like you say, you don't want to worry.
Thanks HRTKD

 

[bc thunder]

Condition	Time	Current	Temperature	Meter Voltage at battery	Single cell SG
Prior to shut down	9:30pm	0	-6c	25.18	1.270
Before power-on	5:30am	0	-9c	25.38	1.270