Eg4 inverter future

[fafrd]

I'm not sure how this is different from the ac-coupling available in hybrid inverters like the sol-ark or 18kpv.

Download the manual and read about Mode 1 and Mode 2 (when on-grid).

If you can confirm that the Solark of EG4 18kpv can do that, my hat will be off to you (though I was reading both manuals just yesterday and don’t believe they can).

To be sure we are talking about the same functionality, we’re talking about maintaining zero export and zero import through as much of the day and as possible and maintaining zero import through as much of the night as possible.

 

[1201]

Most widely adopted UL9540 requirements are for combined inverter/battery listing. And as AHJs move forward in their code year adoption every AHJ will eventually require it.

Ok so very few, if any of the ac coupled solutions we've talked about offer that.

 

[zanydroid]

Ok so very few, if any of the ac coupled solutions we've talked about offer that.

Sure. Probably half of the UL9540 systems use HV batteries.

I have a hard time thinking of a 48V system other than 18kpv and SolArk, that works with server rack / PowerPro price point batteries in a UL9540 listing.

Remember paired UL9540 listings means extra overhead for the vendors to pay for the listing. You need at least one of the inverter or battery vendor to be interested in listing a combination. I'll bet good money that they figure the cheapskates going for <$3K inverters aren't worth pursuing as earlier customers ?

The DC ESS version of UL 9540 (battery only) will hopefully change that and change things to allow separate inverter / battery listings.

 

[1201]

I’m 110% with you. I don’t know that we’ll see 12kW for $3K, but the SRNE 10K is under $2000 and I’m pretty certain we’re going to see Solark-like hybrids in the 8-10K range for under $3000 within the next 12-18 months…

We are already there if you believe advertising. We just need boxes that work well. Once we get to that for 3k then nobody will be taking about solark anymore.

Mpp tells me this one can ac couple even thought is not in the specs.
10kw, parallelable ,Dual 600v mppts for $1800. Of course voltronics is not known for reliability like deye is

MPP Solar Inc » SPLIT PHASE HYBRID – LVX 12KW WP

www.mppsolar.com

Btw, I don't think the srne 10k is capable of ac coupling

 

[zanydroid]

When a vendor says something "AC Couples" you need to check them on what exactly it means.

There's no law saying it has to mean what people assume it means. Unfortunately, I find the typical story is to be disappointed when diving into the detailed specs/manuals of a new product in that price range.

I'm not even sure how many people have ever gotten a Voltronics inverter to AC couple properly.

 

[zanydroid]

For instance, two products that claim AC Coupling and zero export to CT when on-grid that I looked at recently.

AC coupled battery/inverter. The Anker portable battery that had kickstarter in the past 1-2 weeks.

The latter definitely says AC Coupling in the kickstarter material.

If you dive into the manual/FAQs, they will use the CTs to try to offset production with the battery inverter (taking into account how much the grid tie inverters passing through are sending), but they don't activate the grid tied inverters if the grid is not present. Activating the inverters is a much harder problem. Instead the grid that they form is only able to draw on battery power.

 

[timselectric]

Except we can’t purchase them here…

Sure you can. Just not the split-phase versions.
Single phase is actually the better option.
Having to balance the two legs perfectly, in order to get maximum output.
No thanks

 

[fafrd]

We are already there if you believe advertising. We just need boxes that work well. Once we get to that for 3k then nobody will be taking about solark anymore.

Not when it comes to AC-coupling.

Enphase already has a solution but it is walled-garden and as pricey as Solark.

Schneider fits the bill but only for limited power levels and it’s old tech that’s greatly in need of a refresh.

Solark supposedly supports AC-coupling but only if there is DC-coupled solar power being input as well.

It’s not yet clear when we will have dual-HF split-phase inverters delivering LF-like support for AC-coupling (Schneider / Magnum-like).

Mpp tells me this one can ac couple even thought is not in the specs.
10kw, parallelable ,Dual 600v mppts for $1800. Of course voltronics is not known for reliability like deye is

MPP Solar Inc » SPLIT PHASE HYBRID – LVX 12KW WP

www.mppsolar.com

‘Can AC couple’ can mean many things. When there is a section in the manual on AC-coupling in the manual, we can have a productive discussion…

Btw, I don't think the srne 10k is capable of ac coupling

Pretty sure it is not. Would already be in my inbasket if it was .

On the other hand, it seems to be a high-quality 10kW (5+5) by a major manufacturer (at least Deye-quality) so it gives you an idea of where UL-listed 10kW inverter prices are headed over the next few years…

 

[fafrd]

Sure you can. Just not the split-phase versions.
Single phase is actually the better option.
Having to balance the two legs perfectly, in order to get maximum output.
No thanks

Didn’t know that. Do you have a link as to where?

Does Deye support an Autotransformer-based split-phase solution?

 

[fafrd]

For instance, two products that claim AC Coupling and zero export to CT when on-grid that I looked at recently.

AC coupled battery/inverter. The Anker portable battery that had kickstarter in the past 1-2 weeks.

The latter definitely says AC Coupling in the kickstarter material.

If you dive into the manual/FAQs, they will use the CTs to try to offset production with the battery inverter (taking into account how much the grid tie inverters passing through are sending), but they don't activate the grid tied inverters if the grid is not present. Activating the inverters is a much harder problem. Instead the grid that they form is only able to draw on battery power.

Backup power is a whole ‘nuther ball-o-wax…

When we are talking about adjusting to the new rules for NEM 3.0, ability to capture close to 100% of excess solar energy that otherwise would get exported (for little/no credit) so that stored energy can be used to offset overnight load is the far more important / fundamental feature (at least for those wanting to add a battery inverter to legacy AC-coupled PV, like me).

Sure, you’d like your new battery + hybrid to deliver backup power as well, but once the incremental cost of supporting AC-coupling off-grid exceeds the cost of adding a small DC-coupled string, the equation changes.

It’s the ability to avoid valueless export that will pay the bills…

 

[timselectric]

That’s certainly the minimum, to be able to operate off-grid with AC-coupled solar power tied to the gen port rather than DC-coupled solar power tied to an SCC (integrated or discrete).

The nuances arise in how that AC-coupled power gets dealt with when on-grid.

Passing through to the AC-input is easy (PASSTHROUGH).

Preventing export by using excess AC-coupled energy to charge the battery before allowing any excess to export to grid is harder (LIMITED EXPORT)

Preventing export by consuming all excess energy and then shutting down AC-coupled solar generation is hardest (TRUE ZERO EXPORT).

Just another one of the reasons I am strictly an off grid guy. Don't have to deal with any of that.
Net metering is going the way of the DoDo bird.
Not a train that I had any interest in boarding.
When I started this journey. I decided that I would never negotiate my energy costs. With anyone that doesn't have their name on my bank account.

 

[timselectric]

Didn’t know that. Do you have a link as to where?

Does Deye support an Autotransformer-based split-phase solution?

Support? I would guess, no.
It's not going to be in their manual.
But we're not talking about a UL listed system, either.

 

[timselectric]

Do you have a link as to where?

They are all over AliExpress.

 

[zanydroid]

When we are talking about adjusting to the new rules for NEM 3.0, ability to capture close to 100% of excess solar energy that otherwise would get exported (for little/no credit)

There’s plenty of hardware capable of doing this in the $1500-2500 range and it can probably hit $1000. The question is around UL9540.

I’m not going to believe in an AC coupling hardware that can grid form for GTIs for that price until 10 reputable people on the forum set it up.

Wouldn’t be surprised if EV V2H wins out vs that kind of backup system. Actually if it’s always going to cost $1500-2500 more for AC coupling (EG a straw man implementation just adds a chargeverter in parallel with the inverter and locks them together in a smart way) maybe it’s better to spend that money on a V2H connector

 

[TOU47]

Just another one of the reasons I am strictly an off grid guy. Don't have to deal with any of that.
Net metering is going the way of the DoDo bird.
Not a train that I had any interest in boarding.
When I started this journey. I decided that I would never negotiate my energy costs. With anyone that doesn't have their name on my bank account.

Exactly. ? agreed

 

[fafrd]

There’s plenty of hardware capable of doing this in the $1500-2500 range and it can probably hit $1000.

Aside from the Conext SW, I’m all ears. But to be clear, I’m not considering hardware that ‘captures close to 100%of excess solar energy’ by consuming from grid…

The question is around UL9540.

That’s certainly an increasingly important criterion going forward but largely independent of the ‘near-zero export capability’ we are discussing.

I’m not going to believe in an AC coupling hardware that can grid form for GTIs for that price until 10 reputable people on the forum set it up.

Fair enough - off-grid AC-coupling from HF hybrids is certainly less mature / proven than it is from LF hybrids.

Wouldn’t be surprised if EV V2H wins out vs that kind of backup system. Actually if it’s always going to cost $1500-2500 more for AC coupling (EG a straw man implementation just adds a chargeverter in parallel with the inverter and locks them together in a smart way) maybe it’s better to spend that money on a V2H connector

V2H or support with V2L is a whole ‘nuther discussion. Not everyone is going to have an EV and it’ll still be a few years before all EVs support V2L let alone V2H.

What legacy grid-tied customers (like me) need as we mull the impact of NEM3.0 is an adaptive battery charger that consumes excess solar generation that otherwise would be wasted on no/low-credit export (without consumption of any grid power).

The Deye / Solark / GTIL capability to ‘export to CT’ in order to offset grid-side load was a marvel when it first materialized 4-5 years ago but is pretty much widespread / commoditized today.

What we need to convert NEM 1.0 / 2.0 systems for NEM 3.0 rules is a CT / energy-based battery charger that does the same thing on the export side as GTILs do on the import side…

Again, EPS and AC-coupled EPS is a different discussion, more important for those primarily interested in off-grid or backup power such as yourself; less important for those primarily interested to capture excess energy we export today for use offsetting loads overnight, such as me.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Release today. sorry for the pause, it was for good reasons

 

[Zapper77]

Release today. sorry for the pause, it was for good reasons

Patiently, Waiting on your IT guy to hit publish. Unless you have a direct link?

 

[Zapper77]

Checks Wills youtube for a new video. Nope.

Hmm maybe it's a quiet launch. ?

 

[Zapper77]

Found it.

EG4® 6000XP All-In-One Off-Grid Inverter - EG4 Electronics

Discover the EG4® 6000XP: a powerful 48V off-grid inverter/charger, harnessing 8kW PV input, 6kW output, and scalable up to 96kWs.

eg4electronics.com

 

[1201]

Found it.

EG4® 6000XP All-In-One Off-Grid Inverter - EG4 Electronics

Discover the EG4® 6000XP: a powerful 48V off-grid inverter/charger, harnessing 8kW PV input, 6kW output, and scalable up to 96kWs.

eg4electronics.com

 

[Zapper77]

Promise it's there. I just tried the link again and it's same 500 error.
I hit refresh and the site disappearsed

 

[1201]

A foreboding sign?

 

[42OhmsPA]

Found it.

EG4® 6000XP All-In-One Off-Grid Inverter - EG4 Electronics

Discover the EG4® 6000XP: a powerful 48V off-grid inverter/charger, harnessing 8kW PV input, 6kW output, and scalable up to 96kWs.

eg4electronics.com

They must not be using solar assistant for communications...


Edit - Oops @1201 already showed the error. Didn't read ahead.

 

[Zapper77]

Shows up under the warranty page.