House burned down

[SeaGal]

Faulty installations often to blame for battery fires

The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), the US Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), and German battery analysis specialist Twaice have jointly evaluated 26 battery fires between 2018 and 2023. They say that the diversity of components plays a critical role...

www.pv-magazine.com

I just read that and it doesn't seem to make sense or add anything useful... Is it just me or has the quality of editors vanished in recent times?

"EPRI said that that damages are more likely caused by system components outside of the cells and control systems. It said that the complexity of coordinating numerous components might cause fires.

The group said that failures will also occur when the range of components continues to increase. They identified the operation of storage systems as the second-most common source of errors. Most control systems are the reason for failures, especially state-of-charge limits in systems."

 

[BarracudaBob]

I just read that and it doesn't seem to make sense or add anything useful... Is it just me or has the quality of editors vanished in recent times?

"EPRI said that that damages are more likely caused by system components outside of the cells and control systems. It said that the complexity of coordinating numerous components might cause fires.

The group said that failures will also occur when the range of components continues to increase. They identified the operation of storage systems as the second-most common source of errors. Most control systems are the reason for failures, especially state-of-charge limits in systems."

Many of the new rules being proposed in both the EU and by the fire prevention agencies are limiting home storage to 20 kW have to be outside not near a window, all kinds of restrictions. Pretty much if it's not in a self-contained box or something it could be yanked off the wall away from the home. They're not going to like it.

The increased number of EV fires is also driving the fear for the home residential energy systems

 

[Brucey]

I just read that and it doesn't seem to make sense or add anything useful... Is it just me or has the quality of editors vanished in recent times?

"EPRI said that that damages are more likely caused by system components outside of the cells and control systems. It said that the complexity of coordinating numerous components might cause fires.

The group said that failures will also occur when the range of components continues to increase. They identified the operation of storage systems as the second-most common source of errors. Most control systems are the reason for failures, especially state-of-charge limits in systems."

Prob could be more clearly written but seems like it's saying:

1. Most common cause of damage is by system components outside of the cells and control systems.
2. Secondmost common cause of damage is operational, I.e overcharging due to state of charge limits etc.

 

[Quattrohead]

"US-based EPRI has set up a database listing battery storage fires throughout the world. It recorded 50 incidents during the 2018-23 period. "

I wonder how many cooking fires or cars and garage fires or my bonfire got out of control fires etc there have been in the same timeframe ? How about the diesel car that burned the whole car park down at one of the UK airports.

 

[Brucey]

"US-based EPRI has set up a database listing battery storage fires throughout the world. It recorded 50 incidents during the 2018-23 period. "

I wonder how many cooking fires or cars and garage fires or my bonfire got out of control fires etc there have been in the same timeframe ? How about the diesel car that burned the whole car park down at one of the UK airports.

Very small numbers in the scheme of things.

 

[robbob2112]

Interesting reading. Thermal runaway and gasses released by lfp cells

Simulation of Dispersion and Explosion Characteristics of LiFePO4 Lithium-Ion Battery Thermal Runaway Gases

In recent years, as the installed scale of battery energy storage systems (BESS) continues to expand, energy storage system safety incidents have been a fast-growing trend, sparking widespread concern from all walks of life. During the thermal runaway ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The summary at the end


In this paper, the analysis of the gas component of the battery heat of the LFP was carried out, the simulation model was established in FLACS software, and the law of diffusion of the gas and the explosion of the gas in the storage battery cabin were studied by establishing the diffusion–explosion model.

(1)
Without considering the electrolyte vapor and smoke, the explosion limit of the mixed combustible gas is 4.86–52.2%. When the TR occurs in the middle of the 48 batteries in the prefabricated chamber, the shortest time for the concentration of combustible gas to reach the explosion limit is 9.8 s.
(2)
The maximum explosion overpressure caused by the explosion of combustible gas generated by the TR of 24 and 48 batteries in the middle of the prefabricated cabin is 92.2 and 566 kPa. Compared with the upper left corner and lower right corner, the TR of the battery in the middle of the prefabricated chamber is the least likely to cause serious harm.
(3)
When the combustible gas produced by the TR of 24 batteries explodes at different locations in the prefabricated cabin, the maximum explosive overpressure generated at 5 m outside the prefabricated cabin door is 2.2 kPa, which does not pose a threat to the human body. However, when 48 batteries are thermally out of control, the maximum explosive overpressure can reach 45.7 kPa, which will cause serious harm to the human body.

 

[Brucey]

Interesting reading. Thermal runaway and gasses released by lfp cells

Simulation of Dispersion and Explosion Characteristics of LiFePO4 Lithium-Ion Battery Thermal Runaway Gases

In recent years, as the installed scale of battery energy storage systems (BESS) continues to expand, energy storage system safety incidents have been a fast-growing trend, sparking widespread concern from all walks of life. During the thermal runaway ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The summary at the end


In this paper, the analysis of the gas component of the battery heat of the LFP was carried out, the simulation model was established in FLACS software, and the law of diffusion of the gas and the explosion of the gas in the storage battery cabin were studied by establishing the diffusion–explosion model.

(1)
Without considering the electrolyte vapor and smoke, the explosion limit of the mixed combustible gas is 4.86–52.2%. When the TR occurs in the middle of the 48 batteries in the prefabricated chamber, the shortest time for the concentration of combustible gas to reach the explosion limit is 9.8 s.
(2)
The maximum explosion overpressure caused by the explosion of combustible gas generated by the TR of 24 and 48 batteries in the middle of the prefabricated cabin is 92.2 and 566 kPa. Compared with the upper left corner and lower right corner, the TR of the battery in the middle of the prefabricated chamber is the least likely to cause serious harm.
(3)
When the combustible gas produced by the TR of 24 batteries explodes at different locations in the prefabricated cabin, the maximum explosive overpressure generated at 5 m outside the prefabricated cabin door is 2.2 kPa, which does not pose a threat to the human body. However, when 48 batteries are thermally out of control, the maximum explosive overpressure can reach 45.7 kPa, which will cause serious harm to the human body.

So it seems like a single 105Ah cell can generate over 40 liters of hydrogen.

The article mentions overpressure relief panels, I.e. engineered weak points to allow for pressure to vent without catastrophic rupture. Not sure if there's a risk to a standard steel rack mount type battery rupturing, perhaps not enough free space internally?

 

[D71]

Interesting reading. Thermal runaway and gasses released by lfp cells

Simulation of Dispersion and Explosion Characteristics of LiFePO4 Lithium-Ion Battery Thermal Runaway Gases

In recent years, as the installed scale of battery energy storage systems (BESS) continues to expand, energy storage system safety incidents have been a fast-growing trend, sparking widespread concern from all walks of life. During the thermal runaway ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The summary at the end


In this paper, the analysis of the gas component of the battery heat of the LFP was carried out, the simulation model was established in FLACS software, and the law of diffusion of the gas and the explosion of the gas in the storage battery cabin were studied by establishing the diffusion–explosion model.

(1)
Without considering the electrolyte vapor and smoke, the explosion limit of the mixed combustible gas is 4.86–52.2%. When the TR occurs in the middle of the 48 batteries in the prefabricated chamber, the shortest time for the concentration of combustible gas to reach the explosion limit is 9.8 s.
(2)
The maximum explosion overpressure caused by the explosion of combustible gas generated by the TR of 24 and 48 batteries in the middle of the prefabricated cabin is 92.2 and 566 kPa. Compared with the upper left corner and lower right corner, the TR of the battery in the middle of the prefabricated chamber is the least likely to cause serious harm.
(3)
When the combustible gas produced by the TR of 24 batteries explodes at different locations in the prefabricated cabin, the maximum explosive overpressure generated at 5 m outside the prefabricated cabin door is 2.2 kPa, which does not pose a threat to the human body. However, when 48 batteries are thermally out of control, the maximum explosive overpressure can reach 45.7 kPa, which will cause serious harm to the human body.

Long post - sorry.

This test was done with “105ah cells as models”. 280 or 304 would make a difference.

Ppl have these cells in battery cases under their beds and such. You can watch youtube to see the applications and placements. By same token they may have had lead acid at one time too. The interesting part this research is on a medical gov website here in USA but was funded by China. Is that why battery prices have been coming down? Why on medical website? Why not Dept of Energy or UL?

We have been told “LIFEPO is safe”. Over and over. We are dealing with stored energy. Now the question is compared to what for safe.? Again the videos of van life - tiny homes show ppl with them in living space and integrated in lifestyles as hip solar generators …. Funky fresh .



Another reason Why I hang back to watch others. Big - ol Bucks often do the same because they learned…hang back.

I think we know cells were-are recycled for batteries. Never know what we are really ordering. We are not dealing with new cells in all cases. Despite Chinese advertising. The Chinese are most likely mixing the recovered cells all up. They remove codes and restamp codes. Old cells new cells hard use or little use for mismatch. Part of a battery UL mentions recovered recycled battery cells. Some claim tested…new when used. Lie.

Some cells have seen a rough life while others have not. Mixed matched. They are supposedly tested. Right?. I bet not tested in most cases as time is money and ppl are greedy….lazy. I have noticed most battery companies have never recommended replacing a defective aged cell with new cell in an old pack. Create problems according to warnings. So what is a person to do? But are the Chinese doing this mix match for recovered batteries that are and were sold as new? Hmmmm…. Will Prowse and others bust these battery companies all the time. BUT Is anything ever done to correct the battery short coming - false advertising once exposed?

Some ppl buy raw cells and do their own testing. But are they really matched and new as advertised or just meeting capacity test?

A few things ppl will go nuts about… can you say all your cells are truly matched… are they really recycled or new. If you add a new parallel string to an old parallel battery string are you at risk - inviting a problem? Hmmmm remember lifepo is stated super safe. Or it was. Manufacturers say don’t mix or mismatch…but are they following their own advice.

What is in here for mystery? My battery brand.



A person on here opened one and a company…. man from another brand quickly stated the cells are not quality….stated they were sub-par used cells in himassi. Stated they will never live up to advertising. He was smug…attitude . Himassi disappeared…

Battle Born brand melted down on an Island YouTuber with a popular channel. So expensive vs cheap is not a factor either. Difference was that youtuber yanked video down…hid it away. Wonder why? Some ppl seen that video. Btw it had to be fault of youtuber because battle born are - were supposed high quality. Now that is me being smug back. Sad. Why did youtuber take that video down?
Below is another Battle Born story damaged by loose internal connections. OP could have had the same with his system a loose connection.

The grid service meter leads come in at meter on house use to require retorque inspections about every 10 years…. Service Aluminum wire clamped by alloy -…things happen with time.
Factory sealed Loose connections remarked - blamed for destroyed cells…Battle Born. Loose inside.

Battleborn four BB10012 battery bank failure

Hello all. Posting this in hopes to see if anyone else had the same failure or experience. Back in 2020 I purchased four BB10012 batteries, connected them in parallel using 4/0 cable, decent lugs, torqued terminal bolts to 10 ft/lbs in accordance with battleborn's manual, and installed them...

diysolarforum.com

Kinda why ISLAND YouTuber should of left video up…of the failure.


If old and used then as such should we spec charge them as if new? How do we know what is inside? Without blue tooth - some kind of MONITORING … how do you - we know what the cells are doing in these mystery pack batteries. The poster got alert from victron app about something whacked with battle born. Hmmm … OP had Batrium…monitoring controlling and go by recommended specs at time.

Op had cell vs pack batteries but had a failed cell to vent…the cell case supposedly ruptured in one of his strings. How else did it empty contents as shown? Weirdly OP stated vent had not opened in a follow up. He had threaded rod - compression. If not under compression the cells can expand as safety. Hmmmm… vent not ruptured. Over Compressed? Failure as shown by OP. Now some ppl say no no to compression - Andy’s Off Grid Garage. You know what? What was good practice yesterday is poo today. Imagine your info on medical website bought and paid testing by chinese.

Who knows…actual cause for OP…. we will most likely never know.


Did op really “charge his batteries to 5.53 voltage highest to 5.55v” I posted this earlier….post but nobody said anything. OP 2020 Typo? Happens…



Can kicking.

 

[_voltmeter_]

We have been told “LIFEPO is safe”. Over and over. We are dealing with stored energy. Now the question is compared to what for safe.?

electricity isnt safe too. many people have died
so we have to deal with the risks

 

[SparkyJJO]

We live in houses with wiring and gas piping, drive cars propelled by highly flammable liquids and gases, and do all kinds of other risky stuff. Sometimes things go wrong. A house not far from my old home a few years back just suddenly exploded, blew out the windows of the neighboring houses along with other collateral damage from flying debris. Cause was determined to be a gas leak, got ignited by a thermostat switch or something like that automatic (no one was home when the house blew up). No one had touched the gas pipes in that house for years, why did it suddenly start leaking? No idea.

Anyway, my point is things are only "safe" up to a point. Everything has some sort of risk. When I hear someone say these batteries are as dangerous as a pile of wood, I think ehhh not quite, wood doesn't contain the capacity to start itself on fire because of something getting dropped on it. But, that said, compared to a lot of battery chemistries out there, it is a relatively "safe" option. They don't routinely off-gas hydrogen like lead acid batteries, and they won't blow up on you because you looked at them funny like NMC. But there is a crapload of energy stored in them that can make things go horribly wrong if not managed properly.

 

[Hedges]

Do lead-acid batteries outgas and create an explosive atmosphere when damaged or shorted? Or only during charging, as current is put in?

Seems to me those cargo container ESS could be much more explosion resistant if LiFePO4 cells were sealed in metal boxes, filled with nitrogen, plumbed to external vent with a rupture disk.

 

[Brucey]

Do lead-acid batteries outgas and create an explosive atmosphere when damaged or shorted? Or only during charging, as current is put in?

Seems to me those cargo container ESS could be much more explosion resistant if LiFePO4 cells were sealed in metal boxes, filled with nitrogen, plumbed to external vent with a rupture disk.

The Tesla mega packs have passive venting and a thermal roof to deal with the small chance of thermal runaway, and many safety features which we just don't see in the vast majority of diy configuration, or even in one of the walk in type ess containers using rack mounts. Protection/isolation at the module level, multiple layers of redundancy.

https://www.greenburghny.com/DocumentCenter/View/7245/PB-20-18-Eagle-Energy---Tesla-Safety-Data-Sheet%23

 

[WOLF-GANG]

Sorry to hear this terrible news,
I hope that your family is save and has recovered a bit from that shock.

I have seen that you showed a black mega fuse I guess from Victron.

Has that cause the issue or was it just meant as an example for what a melt fuse is ?
You had shown this picture on page one when someone had asked what a melt fuse is.

 

[summit]

The Tesla mega packs have passive venting and a thermal roof to deal with the small chance of thermal runaway, and many safety features which we just don't see in the vast majority of diy configuration, or even in one of the walk in type ess containers using rack mounts. Protection/isolation at the module level, multiple layers of redundancy.

https://www.greenburghny.com/DocumentCenter/View/7245/PB-20-18-Eagle-Energy---Tesla-Safety-Data-Sheet%23

View attachment 216978

has there been any mishap with these giant stored capacity ?

 

[Hedges]

They are a leader in everything they do.

https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/recent-california-energy-storage-battery-fire-draws-renewed-attention-storage-safety-issues

 

[Brucey]

has there been any mishap with these giant stored capacity ?

There was an event that caused one of the mega packs to go up in flames during the commissioning process at the geelong big battery in Australia. The resulting fire caught a neighboring mega pack on fire.

Root cause was found to be that there was a 24 hour delay before the SCADA monitoring back to Tesla was complete, and therefore all the safety systems weren't enabled. Specifically the power supply to a pyro fuse was compromised and couldn't trigger as designed after an arc event. And there was a sub optimal design in the roofs where embers from the initial unit on fire spread to the unit that was directly adjacent/behind it. Fire department let them burn in place per Tesla recommendation, just keeping cooling water going on adjacent units.

pyro fuse power supply weakness was resolved and new roof structures put in place, and now delay for SCADA connectivity is 1 hour instead of 24.

Sorry, root cause was a coolant leak:

Fire at Tesla giant battery project near Geelong was likely caused by coolant leak, investigation finds

Authorities grant approval for testing to resume at Australia's largest Tesla battery project this week, after investigations into a July blaze found the likely cause to be a coolant leak.

www.abc.net.au

 

[ricardocello]

I have seen that you showed a black mega fuse I guess from Victron.

See https://diysolarforum.com/threads/house-burned-down.83098/post-1077834

The photos in the original OP build thread appear to show 58V-rated fuses. These are 1 kA AIC.
The 70v-rated one he showed is 2.5 kA AIC, but it is not clear if he was using that or not when the sad event occurred.

In either case, neither rating of MEGA fuse can withstand the possible 10-20 kA from the battery bank without arcing.

 

[Zwy]

They are a leader in everything they do.

https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/recent-california-energy-storage-battery-fire-draws-renewed-attention-storage-safety-issues

AZ fire- The battery modules contained 28 Li-ion battery cells (14 series, 2 parallel) of Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) chemistry and a module-level BMS. The 14 battery modules were connected in series, which provided a per-rack nominal voltage of 721 V. The LG Chem batteries in the McMicken BESS were NMC, with an energy density greater than 200 Wh/kg.

Moss Landing BESS- The Moss Landing BESS phase one comprises a 300MW modular, fully integrated, pad-mounted lithium-ion battery energy storage system capable of holding 1,200MWh of electricity. The batteries were supplied by LG Energy Solution and have a discharge duration of four hours.

Moss Landing is comprised of Tesla Megapacks. I've looked to see what cells are used in the Megapack but no clear answer.

 

[Brucey]

AZ fire- The battery modules contained 28 Li-ion battery cells (14 series, 2 parallel) of Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) chemistry and a module-level BMS. The 14 battery modules were connected in series, which provided a per-rack nominal voltage of 721 V. The LG Chem batteries in the McMicken BESS were NMC, with an energy density greater than 200 Wh/kg.

Moss Landing BESS- The Moss Landing BESS phase one comprises a 300MW modular, fully integrated, pad-mounted lithium-ion battery energy storage system capable of holding 1,200MWh of electricity. The batteries were supplied by LG Energy Solution and have a discharge duration of four hours.

Moss Landing is comprised of Tesla Megapacks. I've looked to see what cells are used in the Megapack but no clear answer.

Looks like the current mega pack 2 uses 156Ah LFP prismatic cells from CATL:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tesla-transitions-grid-storage-to-lfp-prismatic-cells-made-in-china.377221/

Some good slides there showing the details, they switched from cylindrical in the original megapacks, and they mention better fire safety performance.

 

[Brucey]

They got rid of the DC bus in the original Megapacks and have individual inverters for each module.