LIFEPOWER4 and EG4LL 48v packs work with anything we've tried so far

[Horsefly]

A customer who opts for DIY pricing on parts and has issues is going to happen.

There are literally hundreds of people on this forum who have done DIY batteries, including me. Here's what that means: We buy cells, a BMS, buy cables, ring terminals, fuses, a switch, and build a fixture to put it all in. We then assemble it, configure the BMS, cut and crimp the cables and test it all out. That is DIY.

Some folks don't have the interest, time, or stomach to do DIY. So instead, they go out and pay twice as much for a nicely packaged professionally assembled battery. That IS NOT DIY.

I really wish you would stop saying people who buy one of your assembled, spec'd, and non-user serviceable batteries are DIY. DIY means you get what you get when you do it yourself. When you pay lots more for non-DIY you legitimately have expectations.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

There are literally hundreds of people on this forum who have done DIY batteries, including me. Here's what that means: We buy cells, a BMS, buy cables, ring terminals, fuses, a switch, and build a fixture to put it all in. We then assemble it, configure the BMS, cut and crimp the cables and test it all out. That is DIY.

Some folks don't have the interest, time, or stomach to do DIY. So instead, they go out and pay twice as much for a nicely packaged professionally assembled battery. That IS NOT DIY.

I really wish you would stop saying people who buy one of your assembled, spec'd, and non-user serviceable batteries are DIY. DIY means you get what you get when you do it yourself. When you pay lots more for non-DIY you legitimately have expectations.

There are different levels of DIY. There is, the DIY build your own battery. But there is also the buy parts and DIY a system together (in fact, most diyers would fall into this category I would argue) and there is no way for us to test every possible set up out there. Your response that people buying our batteries are not diy customers isn't a counter argument to the valid point I made: If someone is buying parts and putting together their own system, there is a certain onus of responsibility that they take to ensure it works.

 

[Hedges]

if we can find any issues specifically we will specifically note them
i.e. the fxr 3524 needing 4 packs to start it (other batteries have issues with this gen of outback too)

The schneider snafu here is that no matter how hard we try all XW inverters work flawlessly with the packs and regardless some people are on this forum pushing misinformation (most of whom have never used the combos they affirm do not work)

It seems to be just a very small fraction of Schneider (and other) inverters that wouldn't start with your battery.

You had available one example within an hour's drive. This was an opportunity to understand the problem, probably fixing it for the handful of samples of other brand inverters too. Well, understand the problem; fixing might require battery manufacturer's effort. Or hopefully your changing settings of battery, or maybe identifying problematic settings in inverter.

What you could have done is buy @Koldsimer's inverter. Or rather, sent him your new Schneider inverter in exchange for his, so he wouldn't be without power. He was quite ready to work with you early on. Now he (finally) has a working system, with the upgraded battery you sent. (But he kept the lights on for two months simply by using any other battery rather than yours.)

A "one size fits all" precharge circuit built into battery is going to be a problem. It was a great idea, solving the issue for customers so they don't have to DIY and apparently worked for most. But for some, it left them dead in the water. Hopefully users can set their inverters to not power up immediately. They should have a way to adjust precharge parameters. Including no precharge, so they can do it externally.

Best thing you can do as a middleman is assure customers they will get swift replacement/refund if they see incompatibility.
$1500 is very significant to many customers. $1500 is completely insignificant to SS, when < 1% of sales. Especially since the battery is still usable for most, can be sold at a discount to recover part (probably not at a loss to SS except maybe for shipping).

 

[mnd]

There are literally hundreds of people on this forum who have done DIY batteries, including me. Here's what that means: We buy cells, a BMS, buy cables, ring terminals, fuses, a switch, and build a fixture to put it all in. We then assemble it, configure the BMS, cut and crimp the cables and test it all out. That is DIY.

Some folks don't have the interest, time, or stomach to do DIY. So instead, they go out and pay twice as much for a nicely packaged professionally assembled battery. That IS NOT DIY.

I really wish you would stop saying people who buy one of your assembled, spec'd, and non-user serviceable batteries are DIY. DIY means you get what you get when you do it yourself. When you pay lots more for non-DIY you legitimately have expectations.

If you really want to go all the way down the "No true Scotsman" rabbit hole, unless you're mining everything from ore and operating your own rolling mill, you're not DIY, right?

If you wrote a check to Tesla, Generac or some other integrator/installer then you're NOT DIY.

If you're specifying, sourcing, installing and integrating components then you're DIY and taking on some level of risk.

 

[robby]

Lifepower4 batteries start every inverter per wattage specs, any video of a failure will be reviewed and responded to; we have the exact packs and inverters here and will replicate the problem. to be hyper-scientific we may swap the battery units in order to control against pack-specific anomalies (none known) like we did with Koldsimer, if we cannot replicate under any circumstances and all scenarios work no matter how hard we try to break the system then we would have to assume the site or the inverter on site is faulty or abnormal.

You do understand about capacitor ESR and how it changes with Age and Temperature. No two Inverters will have the exact same input characteristics to each other, especially if one is new and the other is a year or more older and has been exposed to heat.

So bottom line is if I buy a battery from you and it does not start my Inverter but it starts your Inverter the Assumption is that I have a faulty Inverter or Wiring so your not responsible!
It's interesting that @Koldsimer inverter fit right into your "No Warranty For You Requirements" yet his Inverter started just fine with other batteries including your own LL battery.

The truth is that no lifepower4 will fail to work with our brand new xw6848 pro and we are supplying a large number of professional schneider xw installers without issue. Koldsimer is the only schneider 48v issue ever heard of.

Due to your lack of Electronic knowledge you still do not get the point. We have several Inverters that have failed to start with the lifepower4 battery. You keep on thinking that commonality lies in the model and fail to comprehend that it most likely lies in the Input Capacitance and ESR of the Inverter. This issues could happen to anyone with any Inverter if the Input Capacitance and ESR do not fall within the parameters that your Pre Charge Resistor system allows. Worst yet, is that it may start your new Inverter now and in one years time it may not be able to start it anymore.

 

[robby]

This isn't a 'you get what you pay for' stance. It's a 'we have extensively tested our batteries and have no way of duplicating a custom install' stance. We have done everything we are allowed to by law to troubleshoot this issue,

Seriously folks when did customer service and warranties get to be this dismal?
Imagine buying a brand new BlueRay player and it won't Play any Movies. You call Sony and they say well ours demo machine plays Movies so your out of luck with the warranty. You upload a video of your Player plugged in and not Playing anything and they say sorry our unit works with the same Movie so your TV or it's cabling is evidently bad. Sorry But No Warranty for you!

Bottom line, when did in house Duplication of a problem become the Criteria to get an item returned under warranty. Even the worst companies at least had you send it back and then they tested it and sometimes claimed it worked and then they would not exchange it under warranty.

These guys at Signature Solar have carried it to an all new level, they make the Judgement without even seeing or testing the product.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Now he (finally) has a working system, with the upgraded battery you sent. (But he kept the lights on for two months simply by using any other battery rather than yours.)

Actually - he started his system somehow and then used our batteries the entire time - dozens of cycles on the batteries he returned.

Seriously folks when did customer service and warranties get to be this dismal?
Imagine buying a brand new BlueRay player and it won't Play any Movies. You call Sony and they say well ours demo machine plays Movies so your out of luck with the warranty. You upload a video of your Player plugged in and not Playing anything and they say sorry our unit works with the same Movie so your TV or it's cabling is evidently bad. Sorry But No Warranty for you!

Bottom line, when did in house Duplication of a problem become the Criteria to get an item returned under warranty. Even the worst companies at least had you send it back and then they tested it and sometimes claimed it worked and then they would not exchange it under warranty.

These guys at Signature Solar have carried it to an all new level, they make the Judgement without even seeing or testing the product.

We did exchange his batteries though. It was a strange situation, we have learned and are making changes moving forward to give customers a better experience. Again, there were a lot of issues during this process with this being the first ever reported issue of something like this. Your analysis is correct - it shouldn't be a duplication as a criteria for warranty return. But do you think the first time an error is discovered that they don't go through troubleshooting steps and try tons of troubleshooting to find out what's going on? If every company simply threw new products out then we wouldn't be able to learn and grow. We are doing our best and everyone's feedback is being taken so we can improve - both our products and customer service. I thank you for the opportunity to learn. Some people on the forum are great critics (yourself for example) - they criticize but also give constructive feedback. Others just want to use me as a pinata to bash over and over - no constructive growth. You @robby have always been a voice of reason so I appreciate that.

 

[Horsefly]

If you really want to go all the way down the "No true Scotsman" rabbit hole, unless you're mining everything from ore and operating your own rolling mill, you're not DIY, right?

That may seem like interesting hyperbole, but it is completely useless to this discussion. You've posted 24 messages here. Go look at the sub-forum here called "DIY LiFePO4 Battery Banks". You don't get to step in here and say that the definition of terms used long before you chose to show up are wrong.

If you're specifying, sourcing, installing and integrating components then you're DIY and taking on some level of risk.

First off, I'm pretty sure Signature Solar doesn't allow any one ordering from them to spec what they want. They have catalog items you can choose from.

Seems like the only answer if we accept your view is that Signature Solar should just sell only to professional installers, right? My guess is that a similar percentage of those pros would have the same problem, so then we consumers would be just stuck with SS and the installer pointing fingers at each other. Yeah, that would be much better.

For that matter, maybe the DIY Solar Forum doesn't really have a purpose, and no one should really be interested. Oh wait, there are thousands of people here (nearly all participating long before you showed up), and most expect that when they buy things those things work as advertised. If they put them together wrong, then that is their problem. But if then can replace a purchased component with virtually any other and it all works, well, it is fair to suspect the item that did not work is probably faulty.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

But if then can replace a purchased component with virtually any other and it all works, well, it is fair to suspect the item that did not work is probably faulty.

So if Kold replaced his inverter and it worked would you say his inverter is faulty? Because I have video proof of his batteries working with another inverter? The answer is: No - it is a COMBINATION of his SPECIFIC SETUP that is causing an issue. It's not his inverter 100% and it's not the battery 100%, but a combination of them (plus anything else in his system) that is causing the issue. You can see how, if we went by your logic here, that the batteries are perfectly fine, right? His batteries did work - I have video evidence that they did that you can go and watch. (

) There is obviously some unknown factor in his set up, or a setting, or something else that, in combination with our batteries, is causing the issue.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Taking all the other variables and people with issues out of this and simply answering these questions would be most helpful:
Why does your EG4 LL batteries start @Koldsimer inverter without issue and your EG4 LifePower4 batteries will not start it?
What's different between those 2 batteries?

Thats what you should be focused on, not spending your day on here telling us how your inverter works perfect with your batteries. WE got that, but there is clearly something going on with the EG4 LifePower4, that much has been proven by your customers.

 

[mnd]

Seems like the only answer if we accept your view is that Signature Solar should just sell only to professional installers, right?

That's actually a concern given that cold shoulder I've gotten from some vendors.

I want to see vendors continue to offer products to the DIY community, but if that community gains the reputation for beating up vendors over integration issues outside of their control then I'd anticipate more of the above behavior.

A DIY'er is going to have to navigate interoperability issues, installation issues and code/regulatory considerations. This forum is a fantastic resource for managing those risks but none of them can be unilaterally shifted to another party.

Stamping your feet and throwing a fit about how "They should send someone to my house to fix my stuff!" is the furthest thing from DIY.

 

[Koldsimer]

This is the epitome of do-it-for-me culture, installer service costs at parts prices, everyone can try it once but long term it will hurt people on cost who take responsibility for their installs.

What's that supposed to mean?"Do it for me culture"? I installed my entire system and commissioned it september 2020. It worked flawlessly for the entire time until i tried to run it with the lifepower batteries. My expectation that your batteries perform as advertised is something to be expected for a battery being sold as plug and play.

Again, 3 other batteries all worked without hesitation on my system. Crown cr430, Discover LIthium and the eg4 LL.

Actually - he started his system somehow and then used our batteries the entire time - dozens of cycles on the batteries he returned.

Richard, are you really going to pretend that you don't know how i was finally able to start the inverter with your battery hooked up? It took an additional dc power source, my charge controller in this case. This is the workaround at least one other person is using.

Folks, rumors are here and there of incompatibiliy with one inverter or another

3. You are right, there have been about 10 people who have this issue. I've invited each of them to reach out to me directly multiple times and we can troubleshoot or go from there.

And here you guys are contradicting each other yet again. So is it a rumor or are people like me actually having issues?

 

[Horsefly]

So if Kold replaced his inverter and it worked would you say his inverter is faulty?

I would say it might be. But the evidence we have right now - all the other batteries he tried including the EG4 LL work - puts the suspicion on the Lifepower4.

It's not his inverter 100% and it's not the battery 100%, but a combination of them (plus anything else in his system) that is causing the issue.

To me the problem is that in a few days, you or @Signature Solar will post here or in some other thread pretty specifically saying that the LifePower4 and the EG4 LL work fine, no problem, no caveat, only "rumors" of issues. When pressed, you seem to be honest that there is something there, until you later post that there is nothing wrong.

Stamping your feet and throwing a fit about how "They should send someone to my house to fix my stuff!" is the furthest thing from DIY.

Again, hyperbole. No one threw a fit and said Signature Solar should come to @Koldsimer's house and fix it. LOTS of people were suggesting that SS could have easily made the short trip and looked at his system and probably gotten a better feel for what is causing the problem with his system and several others. The reasoning SS has given why they wouldn't do it has been shot down by other resellers.

Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure I'm looking forward to your participation, but perhaps you will learn some things, and may not just shout exaggerations.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Taking all the other variables and people with issues out of this and simply answering these questions would be most helpful:
Why does your EG4 LL batteries start @Koldsimer inverter without issue and your EG4 LifePower4 batteries will not start it?
What's different between those 2 batteries?

Thats what you should be focused on, not spending your day on here telling us how your inverter works perfect with your batteries. WE got that, but there is clearly something going on with the EG4 LifePower4, that much has been proven by your customers.

This could be reworded as "Why does Kolds 6848 not work with batteries that are shown to work on 100's of other 6848's?" This line of thinking (that it is ONLY the batteries at fault and there is nothing wrong with the system because it works with other batteries) can easily be reversed to (that it is ONLY his set up at fault and there is nothing wrong with the batteries because it works with the same model inverter in literally dozens of other systems). This line of reasoning just has no end - and so why can't we all agree to a better line of reasoning:
There is something about this users SPECIFIC setup, in addition to the use of the LifePower4 batteries, that is causing an issue.
If we adopt this line of thinking, instead of pointing fingers, possibly we can analyze and discover what is actually causing the problem. The reality of this line of thinking, however, does mean that DIYers (of any level whether they are building their own battery or using parts and building their own system) assume a level of risk in doing so. We, as the company selling the EG4 batteries, are happy to review any warranty return claims and fulfill them. The length of time this specific issue took is not normal for many reasons, both within our control, within the users control, and out of both of our control. I will try to get an official stance on this and publish it so consumers can make educated decisions.

 

[Koldsimer]

A DIY'er is going to have to navigate interoperability issues, installation issues and code/regulatory considerations. This forum is a fantastic resource for managing those risks but none of them can be unilaterally shifted to another party.

Stamping your feet and throwing a fit about how "They should send someone to my house to fix my stuff!" is the furthest thing from DIY.

I researched this company and their battery for months before i purchased. I spoke to James several times in 2021 and i even went to check out their shop in person to make sure it wasn't some scrub eating cheetos in his parents' basement. I spoke to Michael (SS tech guy) for about 30 minutes that day. He gave me a tour of the shop and assured me the batteries would work no problem. He said that if something did come up, they would take care of it. I felt reassured and gave them the cash for four of the eg4 lifepower batteries.

As far as coming to my house to fix my stuff- i offered them multiple times to come over and check it out for themselves. I am less than 45 minutes away from them and i figured they would see this as an opportunity to see what was going on in person. This offer was made because we seemed to be making very little progress for over two months of "speaking with engineering". Why they didn't send an installer or electrician over to check it out is beyond me. Like @HighTechLab said, it was a 'golden problem'. Had they taken me up on this offer, they likely would have solved this issue and we wouldn't be here discussing this.

Over that two months, I tried everything under the sun to get these to fire up my system. In early January, their tech guy (Matt c) just stopped answering my emails. I tried calling, left messages, spoke with other tech guys (Ray) and was always told they would get back to me. They never did. I wasn't until weeks later that Richard started responding to the thread i started but then, even he checked out of helping for a couple weeks. Keep in mind, Richard admits that their customer service during this time was not up to task. He admits this several times.

In that thread the owner of SS, comes on and says that they extended the pre-charge timing and it was too much for some inverters.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

1. Richard, are you really going to pretend that you don't know how i was finally able to start the inverter with your battery hooked up? It took an additional dc power source, my charge controller in this case. This is the workaround at least one other person is using.


2. And here you guys are contradicting each other yet again. So is it a rumor or are people like me actually having issues?

1 - it's not really necessary for me to explain how you started your system in the context of that statement. I was merely correcting his statement that made it sound like you were not using our batteries the entire time without any additional issues beyond the initial startup. I wasn't "pretending not to know" how you started your system. That information was just irrelevant in the context.
2. How are we contradicting each other? The fact of the matter is - the batteries are not incompatible with a specific brand or model inverter. It is your specific 6848 that is having an issue, not the 6848 in general. That being said, if any SPECIFIC PERSON is having issues, we want to know so we can troubleshoot and fix the issue.

I would say it might be. But the evidence we have right now - all the other batteries he tried including the EG4 LL work - puts the suspicion on the Lifepower4.

1. Good because we quite literally did this - there is a video of his specific batteries, that he returned working without any issues using the exact same brand and model inverter that he is.

 

[Koldsimer]

2. How are we contradicting each other?

Folks, rumors are here and there of incompatibiliy with one inverter or another

3. You are right, there have been about 10 people who have this issue. I've invited each of them to reach out to me directly multiple times and we can troubleshoot or go from there.

rumor
[ˈro͞omər]

NOUN

1. a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.
   
   

VERB

1. be circulated as an unverified account.
   
   

How do you not get this? Is it a rumor, or are there actually people having issues? You cant have it both ways.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

1. Over that two months, I tried everything under the sun to get these to fire up my system. In early January, their tech guy (Matt c) just stopped answering my emails. I tried calling, left messages, spoke with other tech guys (Ray) and was always told they would get back to me. They never did. I wasn't until weeks later that Richard started responding to the thread i started but then, even he checked out of helping for a couple weeks. Keep in mind, Richard admits that their customer service during this time was not up to task. He admits this several times.

2. In that thread the owner of SS, comes on and says that they extended the pre-charge timing and it was too much for some inverters.

1. I was told that this was being worked on by other people while I 'checked out'. I've apologized on here about that time frame but as soon as I found out that was not the case, I took full ownership and began troubleshooting the issue extensively. (In case anyone is wondering, my wife gave birth and I contracted Covid during this time)
2. He stated that prior to us having a unit in house for testing. It was a hypothesis that we have disproven by extending the timing to as long as 10 seconds. I've also corrected this statement in the other thread, in a reply directly to a nearly identical comment you made in that thread.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

How do you not get this?

I think we have a misunderstanding of what 'incompatible' means. If this were the case, it would not work with ANY of the make/model, not just a specific users. The batteries are not INCOMPATIBLE with the inverter. In fact, I've got a video that shows quite the opposite.

Edit: Just to clarify - James' statement that the batteries and inverter are not incompatible is not contradictory to my statement that SOME USERS have had issues, and that I've invited them to message me directly for troubleshooting and additional support.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

How do you not get this? Is it a rumor, or are there actually people having issues? You cant have it both ways.

When did he say it was a rumor people are having issues? He stated it was a rumor that the battery was incompatible with certain inverters. No one is denying that SOME USERS are having issues, but that doesn't mean the inverter is incompatible with the battery.

 

[Koldsimer]

I think we have a misunderstanding of what 'incompatible' means. If this were the case, it would not work with ANY of the make/model, not just a specific users. The batteries are not INCOMPATIBLE with the inverter. In fact, I've got a video that shows quite the opposite.

No we don't. Limited compatibility is how i would describe it. You know i have a video of the battery not starting the inverter, right?

Edit: Just to clarify - James' statement that the batteries and inverter are not incompatible is not contradictory to my statement that SOME USERS have had issues, and that I've invited them to message me directly for troubleshooting and additional support.

That's not what im calling you out on. James says it's rumors and you say it's a real problem. You guys should play rock, paper, scissors and decide who's right.

 

[Koldsimer]

When did he say it was a rumor people are having issues? He stated it was a rumor that the battery was incompatible with certain inverters. No one is denying that SOME USERS are having issues, but that doesn't mean the inverter is incompatible with the battery.

Your lifepower 4 battery IS INCOMPATIBLE with my inverter.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Your lifepower 4 battery IS INCOMPATIBLE with my inverter.

PROVEN FACT! Even posted a video like SS loves to do.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

No we don't. Limited compatibility is how i would describe it. You know i have a video of the battery not starting the inverter, right?

That's not what im calling you out on. James says it's rumors and you say it's a real problem. You guys should play rock, paper, scissors and decide who's right.

limited compatibility ≠ incompatible
You need to use an entire quote if you are going to try and focus on the syntax of a sentence as a point of focus for future arguments. Let me fix your last sentence: "James says it's rumors of incompatibility with an inverter, while I say its an issue for specific users". Those two statements are not contradictory.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

PROVEN FACT! Even posted a video like SS loves to do.

We don't disagree that the battery did not work in this users specific setup. We only state that there is more to the issue than the battery alone - or else it wouldn't have worked with the exact same inverter here.