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LIFEPOWER4 and EG4LL 48v packs work with anything we've tried so far

We have a brand new xw6848 Pro, we probably should have thought to offer a swap in the name of science. we aren't a field service company but totally any ideas like that pls share.

This would be a whole lot simpler of an issue had a new conext as well as all other conext had failed to work, we are chasing a phantom at this point which is very real to you but so far it is impossible to replicate with your exact same batteries and the same model inverter, but if we did the swap and your inverter runs can we agree that it is your site?

Zonna energy mentioned that they are flashing the Pro inverters with new firmware because a recent batch was problematic, I would assume you went around that gig with schneider but can you confirm the version you are running?
@Signature Solar you probably should review this entire thread, a LOT of effort has been exerted in troubleshooting this already:

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...up-with-eg4-lithium-battery.33250/post-439958

Can you confirm what version of firmware is loaded on YOUR new test XW PRO?
I asked @RichardfromSignatureSolar this a long time ago in that thread and didn't see an answer. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...up-with-eg4-lithium-battery.33250/post-441030
 
James just posted our official policy on this specific issue moving forward and updated his initial post. In case someone is here and doesn't see the update:

Signature Solar is dedicated to ensuring that EG4 Electronics products are operational with your system. If your battery fails to start any of the inverters listed below, Signature Solar will offer a full refund and return shipping on your purchased battery. Please email compatibility@eg4electronics.com with the subject "Return Request" for us to review.​

If your inverter is not listed below, Please email compatibility@eg4electronics.com with the subject "Inverter Compatibility Request" for us to review.​

Our demo page for compatibility is: https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-battery-inverter-compatibility/

Note: This page will be updated regularly with new inverters. I am in the process of getting videos of all 30ish inverters we have on site to post here. Please feel free to message me or James if you have any questions.
 
@Signature Solar you probably should review this entire thread, a LOT of effort has been exerted in troubleshooting this already:

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...up-with-eg4-lithium-battery.33250/post-439958

Can you confirm what version of firmware is loaded on YOUR new test XW PRO?
I asked @RichardfromSignatureSolar this a long time ago in that thread and didn't see an answer. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...up-with-eg4-lithium-battery.33250/post-441030
We are going through all the inverters again and I'll see if I can pull this info. I haven't had a chance since you last asked. Sorry about the delay, I'm sure you can see that I am working on a number of projects here and MANY MANY more PM's to me with questions and random other tidbits.
 
We are going through all the inverters again and I'll see if I can pull this info. I haven't had a chance since you last asked. Sorry about the delay, I'm sure you can see that I am working on a number of projects here and MANY MANY more PM's to me with questions and random other tidbits.
Seems like an important detail, if YOUR test XW Pro 6848 is not updated the SAME version as @Koldsimer, that very well maybe why yours works with his EG4 LifePower4 batteries and his does not. They may have changed something on the startup of them that causes the EG4 LifePower4 issues starting them. Schneider specifically recommends everyone update them to the latest firmware on commissioning, as they usually will ship with old firmware installed.
 
Seems like an important detail, if YOUR test XW Pro 6848 is not updated the SAME version as @Koldsimer, that very well maybe why yours works with his EG4 LifePower4 batteries and his does not. They may have changed something on the startup of them that causes the EG4 LifePower4 issues starting them. Schneider specifically recommends everyone update them to the latest firmware on commissioning, as they usually will ship with old firmware installed.
Totally get that - but if it starts with 1 version of firmware and not another, who is to blame? Just asking for my own curiosity.
 
Totally get that - but if it starts with 1 version of firmware and not another, who is to blame? Just asking for my own curiosity.
The EG4 LifePower4 battery is to the blame, obviously, since 3 others including your EG4 LL works with it.

You guys have went to the trouble to buy a Schneider XW Pro Inverter, you should at least commission it properly and update it for testing.
 
The EG4 LifePower4 battery is to the blame, obviously, since 3 others including your EG4 LL works with it.

You guys have went to the trouble to buy a Schneider XW Pro Inverter, you should at least commission it properly and update it for testing.
I guess let me re-phrase my question. If the battery is working in someone's system just fine, and they update the firmware and it suddenly isn't working, you would identify that as an issue with the battery? This is hypothetical - I'm not referencing the current situation with the Schneider specifically.

Edit: To put this into an entirely different context - if I had a device connected to my computer, and I updated the firmware on the device and it stopped working with my computer, by this logic I would blame the computer.
 
I guess let me re-phrase my question. If the battery is working in someone's system just fine, and they update the firmware and it suddenly isn't working, you would identify that as an issue with the battery? This is hypothetical - I'm not referencing the current situation with the Schneider specifically.

Edit: To put this into an entirely different context - if I had a device connected to my computer, and I updated the firmware on the device and it stopped working with my computer, by this logic I would blame the computer.
It's real simple, no matter what firmware. IF the battery supply's the specified, required voltage/current during the startup process and the inverter doesn't start, then it's an inverter issue. If the voltage drops during the startup process causing the inverter to not start, Battery and/or pre-charge issue.

It's been established that the inverters are seeing low voltage from the EG4 LifePower4 batteries during startup....

Probably not likely firmware version will affect startup, but in this case its an unchecked variable you have not addressed for an unexplained issue you can't duplicate. You need to get your Schneider XW Pro updated to latest firmware, as they recommend as part of the commissioning process. You'll need an Insight Home or Pro to do that or even look at the version parameters in the inverter. Maybe they increased the length of the test cycle and bootup process in newer firmware? No way to know that for sure, without upgrading yours to current firmware and re-running your test.
 
It's real simple, no matter what firmware. IF the battery supply's the specified, required voltage/current during the startup process and the inverter doesn't start, then it's an inverter issue. If the voltage drops during the startup process causing the inverter to not start, Battery and/or pre-charge issue.

It's been established that the inverters are seeing low voltage from the EG4 LifePower4 batteries during startup....

Probably not likely firmware version will affect startup, but in this case its an unchecked variable you have not addressed for an unexplained issue you can't duplicate. You need to get your Schneider XW Pro updated to latest firmware, as they recommend as part of the commissioning process. You'll need an Insight Home or Pro to do that or even look at the version parameters in the inverter. Maybe they increased the length of the test cycle and bootup process in newer firmware? No way to know that for sure, without upgrading yours to current firmware and re-running your test.
Agreed. I was just postulating the question for my sake. Thanks for the well thought out explanation. We do have an Insight (at least I'm 99% sure I've seen it) but will get this tested.
 
IF the battery supply's the specified, required voltage/current during the startup process and the inverter doesn't start, then it's an inverter issue.
I went looking for the voltage specified by Schneider:
XW Pro 6848 NA Installation Guide 990-91228C-01 February 2021
Page 71

Note: Voltage should be between 40 to 64 volts for a 48-volt system. If the DC voltage is low, the battery bank must be charged externally. Charge the battery bank, and then restart the functional test.
If the DC voltage is lower than the Low Battery Cut Out (LBCO) setting (44 volts for a 48-volt system) a DC Under Voltage Fault (F48) will be triggered. If the DC voltage is lower than the default LBCO voltage, lower the LBCO setting accordingly.

I wonder what the respective LBCO settings are?

ETA: I'll see if I can look at the config on my pair of Pros since they're likely as recent as the one SS has.
 
It's real simple, no matter what firmware. IF the battery supply's the specified, required voltage/current during the startup process and the inverter doesn't start, then it's an inverter issue. If the voltage drops during the startup process causing the inverter to not start, Battery and/or pre-charge issue.

It's been established that the inverters are seeing low voltage from the EG4 LifePower4 batteries during startup....

Probably not likely firmware version will affect startup, but in this case its an unchecked variable you have not addressed for an unexplained issue you can't duplicate. You need to get your Schneider XW Pro updated to latest firmware, as they recommend as part of the commissioning process. You'll need an Insight Home or Pro to do that or even look at the version parameters in the inverter. Maybe they increased the length of the test cycle and bootup process in newer firmware? No way to know that for sure, without upgrading yours to current firmware and re-running your test.
Ours is updated, According to Zonna the old firmware was having issues with keeping AC frequency output stable.

This has been our point: if you buy a schneider unit new or get the programmer and update the firmware there is no issue, we aren't hoarding old schneider firmware for compatibility tests of every iteration of schneider development.
 
Ours is updated, According to Zonna the old firmware was having issues with keeping AC frequency output stable.
There's been many versions released, I would verify yours is indeed at 1.11.01bn49. That's the latest, released: 18 Aug 2021. It's worth verifying, to make sure your inverter is at that version, the same version @Koldsimer and myself is running.
 
I believe in the beginning @Koldsimer tried the batteries with firmware he had been using and updated the firmware to see if that would help.
Yes he updates the Firmware and it did not make a difference.
This problem is almost certainly one to do with Input Capacitance differences with different inverters. When companies build products they do not use the same components in every production run. They source parts and if they can get the same value part of roughly the same quality for a cheaper price they will buy several hundred or thousands of them for the next production run. Sometimes parts are not available anywhere (Like what is happening now). In these cases they will buy a supply from just about anyone who has something in stock.

I realize that SS really has no clue about capacitors so they keep on ignoring some obvious facts that all electronic engineers already know,
When it comes to Electrolytic Capacitors there is a large tolerance value between each cap that comes off the assembly line.
A good Capacitor may have a +/- Tolerance of 20% and a cheap one of the same uf value may be 30-50% or more of variance.

So a good Panasonic or Rubycon Capacitor of lets say 1000uf @100V will have a real value of anywhere from 800uf to 1200uf.
If you get an Inverter that has 12 of these in parallel and lets say that Batch average out at 850uf each, it would mean your bank value is 10,200uf.
Another Inverter may get a batch of twelve and the average value is 1150uf which would me it's bank value is 13,800uf. That is almost a 40% difference in the input capacitance between two inveters on the assembly line. And this is assuming the company is willing to spend the money for high end capacitor and trust me it may sound cheap when you price each component but it adds up when your building a PCB with a hundred or more components.
Panasonic Cap Specs and Price

It is rare that companies will spend that much when they can buy the same value capacitor for half the price, they will just deal with 30% tolerance levels.

Sometimes you open a device and see empty spots for more capacitors. That can be because a company is building the PCB with an expectation that they may end up using lower quality capacitors at some point in time. If that happens they will have extras added on the pick and place to get the capacitance value back to the nominal value they designed for.
 
This problem is almost certainly one to do with Input Capacitance differences with different inverters. When companies build products they do not use the same components in every production run. They source parts and if they can get the same value part of roughly the same quality for a cheaper price they will buy several hundred or thousands of them for the next production run. Sometimes parts are not available anywhere (Like what is happening now). In these cases they will buy a supply from just about anyone who has something in stock.

I realize that SS really has no clue about capacitors so they keep on ignoring some obvious facts that all electronic engineers already know,
When it comes to Electrolytic Capacitors there is a large tolerance value between each cap that comes off the assembly line.
A good Capacitor may have a +/- Tolerance of 20% and a cheap one of the same uf value may be 30-50% or more of variance.

So a good Panasonic or Rubycon Capacitor of lets say 1000uf @100V will have a real value of anywhere from 800uf to 1200uf.
If you get an Inverter that has 12 of these in parallel and lets say that Batch average out at 850uf each, it would mean your bank value is 10,200uf.
Another Inverter may get a batch of twelve and the average value is 1150uf which would me it's bank value is 13,800uf. That is almost a 40% difference in the input capacitance between two inveters on the assembly line. And this is assuming the company is willing to spend the money for high end capacitor and trust me it may sound cheap when you price each component but it adds up when your building a PCB with a hundred or more components.
Panasonic Cap Specs and Price
Picture courtesy of @RCinFLA from the original thread. That's a lot of capacitors...

1648074129230.png
 
IMG_0541.jpg
Here's a pic of mine. There's a lot going on in them, there's a reason they weigh close to a 140lbs.
 
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If you buy a new battery for your car and install it yourself and the car still wont start does the autoparts company come to your house and troubleshoot your cars electrical system? Give me a break. I have bought equipment from Signature solar and when I installed it it worked. When I had a question about best practices for wiring Signature Solar replied to my PM the next day and that resolved my issue.
If you are not a professional installer and have problems with your equipment or the way it is configured, hire a professional. Don't expect a retailer to solve problems.

I wonder if you bought a $12,000 eVault Max battery and it did not start your Inverter if you would still be so reasonable?

Would you consider the eVault a DIY battery? Would you just fix the problem on your own or would you expect them to troubleshoot it?

I can tell you from first hand experience that Fortress power will spend hours with you on the phone and they will log into your system and troubleshoot any issues until it is fixed. If it's not fixed by the end of a session they will send out a replacement battery the next day. And BTW it does not matter who installed it.

So if your just saying well if you buy a cheaper battery and it does not work then tough luck!
That is not a good business strategy.

Anyway they have cleared the air today and made the warranty policy better but I am just hoping that the list is not fixed and it will truly be adjusted to accommodate everyone with this problem.
 
I guess let me re-phrase my question. If the battery is working in someone's system just fine, and they update the firmware and it suddenly isn't working, you would identify that as an issue with the battery? This is hypothetical - I'm not referencing the current situation with the Schneider specifically.

Edit: To put this into an entirely different context - if I had a device connected to my computer, and I updated the firmware on the device and it stopped working with my computer, by this logic I would blame the computer.

If you can track down what made the difference, probably a change in delay before power-up (or check of voltage), you might identify a user-adjustable parameter. Or if not adjustable, see if your BMS parameters can be adjusted. Or talk to Schneider, maybe something could be accomplished that way.

Yes he updates the Firmware and it did not make a difference.
This problem is almost certainly one to do with Input Capacitance differences with different inverters.

Get a capacitance meter and measure it (mine doesn't go high enough.)
One suggestion I had was to connect two inverters (as a way to get 2x the capacitance) and make sure battery could still start it.

Capacitors vary in capacitance with voltage, some more than others. New batch of capacitors could have been same rated capacitance, but with less reduction due to voltage, present 2x what previous capacitors did.
 
They did troubleshoot the batteries including with the exact same make and model of inverter. Do you even own any of these batteries or anything from Signature Solar? All you ever do is whine about others. Why do you think your opinion has any merit? Where is the perfect system that you have built? Do you think people visit a DIY Solar power forum to listen to you whine?
I don't care if they troubleshoot the batteries in their warehouse. Why would anyone care about that?
As a customer I want them to troubleshoot and fix or replace my battery and not the one in their warehouse.
 
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What you F-tards are not understanding is that Signature Solar tests and posts what their batteries work with. Grow the F up. If you basterdise your DIY build and the battery no longer works it's on you. Grow the F up.
You have no idea what's going on.... stop repeating yourself, try to be an adult and move along.
 
As I read this thread, it really does reinforce the old adage “you get what you pay for” . Cheap batteries are cheap for a reason. Full testing, QA, competent support cost a lot of money. That being said, I also bought cheap batteries..
 
So i tried to talk with an individual and he refused to speak privately with me and I am the villain?
You are ranting and raving, dropping f-bombs because someone wont talk to you? Not a villain, just embarrassingly childish.
You are not self aware enough to understand human communication?
Is that a question or a statement?
Well at least you are making progress. Or your buzz is wearing off.
 
James just posted our official policy on this specific issue moving forward and updated his initial post. In case someone is here and doesn't see the update:

Signature Solar is dedicated to ensuring that EG4 Electronics products are operational with your system. If your battery fails to start any of the inverters listed below, Signature Solar will offer a full refund and return shipping on your purchased battery. Please email compatibility@eg4electronics.com with the subject "Return Request" for us to review.​

If your inverter is not listed below, Please email compatibility@eg4electronics.com with the subject "Inverter Compatibility Request" for us to review.​

Our demo page for compatibility is: https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-battery-inverter-compatibility/

Note: This page will be updated regularly with new inverters. I am in the process of getting videos of all 30ish inverters we have on site to post here. Please feel free to message me or James if you have any questions.
Are you going to refund the original shipping cost?
 

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