New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[Ampster]

They have only dealt with pure grid-tie solar and also have an arbitrary limit of 8kw of panels decided by somebody in the city.

That does sound arbitrary unless that city is part of a Municipal Utility district and the MU is making the rules.

 

[copec]

Can you take some stuff down and make a compliant grid-tie system for them to inspect and approve?

Yeah, it looks like that’s what I’m going to end up doing. Just make it simple and straightforward within the specs they are looking for.

 

[Shimmy]

Yeah, it looks like that’s what I’m going to end up doing. Just make it simple and straightforward within the specs they are looking for.

Actually I would try to talk to the utility and show your maximum export. Limit the max export to something around 5kW if you have exceeded 7kW in the past. This assumes you have a 200A service; if it is smaller than you will need to limit export further.

A limit of 8kW on a 200A service means it is unlikely to exceed 50% of your actual service lateral size and cause problems for the grid. An export limit is usually what they really want.

 

[copec]

Actually I would try to talk to the utility and show your maximum export. Limit the max export to something around 5kW if you have exceeded 7kW in the past. This assumes you have a 200A service; if it is smaller than you will need to limit export further.

A limit of 8kW on a 200A service means it is unlikely to exceed 50% of your actual service lateral size and cause problems for the grid. An export limit is usually what they really want.

I figured as much, but nobody I've talked to in the building department or the power department knows even who to talk to, so I'm working my way through people until I find out.

 

[Shimmy]

I figured as much, but nobody I've talked to in the building department or the power department knows even who to talk to, so I'm working my way through people until I find out.

Looking at the town directory, I would assume that they outsource engineering. I would try Sherry to ask who they use and if it is ok to ask them a question. But pure speculation.

 

[Hedges]

Still, most expedient to start with a permitted system that fits within their standard parameters.
You can always "address" the expansion issue later.

Considering what caused an issue was abnormally low consumption coupled with visible panels.

 

[Ampster]

A limit of 8kW on a 200A service means it is unlikely to exceed 50% of your actual service lateral size and cause problems for the grid.

I also presume it is based on AC inverter size. if so that would be a good case to go with a high DC to AC ratio if allowed. That will result in clipping but more production in morning, afternoon and in winter than with a lower ratio.

 

[Cyanlite]

For $3,000 bucks (plus shipping/freight) you can now get a EG4 LV6548-like inverter and a 5kWh LiFePo4 battery and both are UL listed.

 

[RandyP]

For $3,000 bucks (plus shipping/freight) you can now get a EG4 LV6548-like inverter and a 5kWh LiFePo4 battery and both are UL listed.

i would like to see that listing (not certification).

 

[copec]

i would like to see that listing (not certification).

How many municipalities accept a UL certification? My Deye inverters are only certified, but that’s another question the city can’t answer until I put in the permit application and whomever on the back end looks at it. I might end up just doing a small pure grid tie kit and couple it to my Deyes later.

edit: looking I can get a listed gti for relatively cheap anyways so I’ll probably just do that if they don’t okay the Deyes

 

[robby]

For $3,000 bucks (plus shipping/freight) you can now get a EG4 LV6548-like inverter and a 5kWh LiFePo4 battery and both are UL listed.

The Eg4 6500 is not UL listed, it will not pass Inspection. It has the same TUV certification that the MPP LV6458 has had for years. It's great for off grid but don't even think about getting one for Grid Tied purposes.

 

[copec]

The Eg4 6500 is not UL listed, it will not pass Inspection. It has the same TUV certification that the MPP LV6458 has had for years. It's great for off grid but don't even think about getting one for Grid Tied purposes.

It is certified to UL 1741 requirements, which from my understanding many AHJ’s will pass (although I don’t know if mine would as of yet).

 

[robby]

It is certified to UL 1741 requirements, which from my understanding many AHJ’s will pass (although I don’t know if mine would as of yet).

While processing your diagrams etc pre Inspection they will lookup the major components that are in the Grids path If they cannot find the Inverter in the UL database or on states list, it's not going to pass.
I have access to the Database and it is not listed, it is just TUV certified. Getting Listed is a whole different process from Certified. It requires that all major components inside the Inverter also be certified before they start to rigorously test the Inverter itself. Typical cost is nearly $500K and this is why most companies won't even attempt it.

 

[copec]

While processing your diagrams etc pre Inspection they will lookup the major components that are in the Grids path If they cannot find the Inverter in the UL database or on states list, it's not going to pass.
I have access to the Database and it is not listed, it is just TUV certified. Getting Listed is a whole different process from Certified. It requires that all major components inside the Inverter also be certified before they start to rigorously test the Inverter itself. Typical cost is nearly $500K and this is why most companies won't even attempt it.

SGS certified probably isn’t going to make it then for my Deyes - although I do know other people in different cities in my state that have permitted/inspected installs. https://diysolarforum.com/resources/deye-hybrid-inverter-ul-1749-certificate.165/

 

[timselectric]

SGS certified probably isn’t going to make it then for my Deyes - although I do know other people in different cities in my state that have permitted/inspected installs. https://diysolarforum.com/resources/deye-hybrid-inverter-ul-1749-certificate.165/

If you do a very professional clean looking installation. And you can explain how everything works. Most inspectors are pretty fair. But, i would definitely get an approval on your systems diagram, before attempting it. (When you apply for the permit)

 

[Hedges]

Pretty sure we only spent only 10's of $K, not $500K, to have MET Labs perform certification of a product. But to keep life simple, we did not enable Bluetooth (no intentional radiator, so self-certify rather than lab certify to FCC standards.) And, we used a listed 100V ... 250V to 24V 240W adapter, avoiding all lines voltage issues.

Met Labs is an NRTL.

When it comes to UL Listing, is that something only UL themselves can do? Or can any NRTL perform the testing, and results are recorded at UL (if that is where the listing has to be?)

I wouldn't think there would be a monopoly on the process of UL-1741-SA.

 

[copec]

You gals/guys on this forum are awesome.

 

[copec]

Just doing some brainstorming, I wish there were smaller lower voltage versions of the grid-scale dc coupled storage like these (250-500vdc), the information is out there to speak to many complete EV batteries now, and running conductors sized for ~400vdc to the corner of your lot would actually be feasible.

 

[Maintenance guy]

Quote; "For the most part I have learned that the NEC makes rules for good reason"

I haven't stop laughing yet on that one. When are you people going to realize it is us against them, them being multinational Corporations that actually pull the strings in our Greedy crooked Governments. The rules in place and the ones that are added is a form of control they are slowly eating away at our rights. They want total control over our lives and as of this moment they (Fictitious entities) have more rights then we do according to Admiralty Law which by the way is being forced on us common Law human beings. This was put into place by President Lincoln in the US other countries I do not know. this Admiralty Law side steps the constitution of your country allowing for a second controlling Government to operate outside of the constitution.
They want all your money that is it and has nothing to do with OUR PROTECTION. These stupid laws and restrictions take your rights away from you causing you to purchase only from multinational corporations period end of conversation.

Honestly if you actually think these fake laws and restrictions are for your own good then I will ship you a pound of crack cocaine to smoke because you need it being in La, La land.

 

[Shimmy]

Pretty sure we only spent only 10's of $K, not $500K, to have MET Labs perform certification of a product. But to keep life simple, we did not enable Bluetooth (no intentional radiator, so self-certify rather than lab certify to FCC standards.) And, we used a listed 100V ... 250V to 24V 240W adapter, avoiding all lines voltage issues.

Met Labs is an NRTL.

When it comes to UL Listing, is that something only UL themselves can do? Or can any NRTL perform the testing, and results are recorded at UL (if that is where the listing has to be?)

I wouldn't think there would be a monopoly on the process of UL-1741-SA.

From NEC Article 100:

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose. (CMP-1)

InformationalNote: Themeansforidentifyinglistedequipment may vary for each organization concerned with product evalua- tion, some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to identify a listed product.