New NEC code makes it impossible for DIY systems to be compliant

[12VoltInstalls]

rules in place and the ones that are added is a form of control they are slowly eating away at our rights

I’m as cynical as anybody but I’m not quite that paranoid

These stupid laws and restrictions take your rights away from you causing you to purchase only from multinational corporations period end of conversation.

the equipment in question in the thread is sourced from….multinational corporations.

Yes, we’ve departed sense and entered nonsense as a country but NEC NFPA stopped a lot of people from dying over the years.

 

[copec]

I think many times the cities/codes go too far, and make you feel like you live in an unfree controlled state, but they are also the most established and tested way to have a high degree of safety: Think the great San Fransisco fire.

Not sure how else a public authority can prevent cities from burning down other than enforcing some set of standards, and it is pragmatic to settle and focus on a single set as well as all the eyes and testing that is done.

I think my DIY battery is safe, but I can’t show it unless it goes through the same sort of rigor as a certified ESS. For me the issue seems that the UL itself seems to be a racket.

 

[A.Justice]

I think the NEC is there for good reason, but it's also naive to think that big companies don't try to influence codes to increase product sales.

 

[Hedges]

Things are never what they seem:

The 1906 San Francisco Earthquake: Biggest Insurance Fraud Ever?

Given that the corrupt city officials at the time downplayed the actual damages and deaths, was the “famous”1906 San Francisco Earthquake th...

bonesinsurance.blogspot.com

(If true, Everyone was in on it, including local insurance agents who were themselves affected property owners.)


For sure some of the rules and laws are implemented/exploited for profit.

An earlier draft of California's NEM 2.0 would have required PV installer to have $1 million liability insurance on the vehicle he drove to customer's site. It would have required remote monitoring of PV production by a third party, not by manufacturer of equipment (e.g. SMA), all for the consumer's protection, of course. It would have mandated time of use rates, meaning if you install some PV but not enough to offset 100% of A/C cooling power, your power consumption goes down but your bill $$ go up.

Definitely many people trying to use power to rob us, or to control us.

But not all grounding, insulation, GFCI, tool required to access lethal voltages, etc. were implemented for ulterior motives.

 

[Shimmy]

I think many times the cities/codes go too far, and make you feel like you live in an unfree controlled state, but they are also the most established and tested way to have a high degree of safety: Think the great San Fransisco fire.

Not sure how else a public authority can prevent cities from burning down other than enforcing some set of standards, and it is pragmatic to settle and focus on a single set as well as all the eyes and testing that is done.

I think my DIY battery is safe, but I can’t show it unless it goes through the same sort of rigor as a certified ESS. For me the issue seems that the UL itself seems to be a racket.

UL is a racket to be sure. There are a few things in the code that are done with a poor cost/benefit payback (arc fault circuit interrupters were a classic example), but most of the provisions are solid.

The reason why I do respect the need for a UL label is that all of this stuff is coming from China and fakes and cost cutting are a very serious problem. I'm not trying to be jingoistic with the statement... just the fact that safety is not a priority with many of the manufacturers.

Historically the NEC, IBC, and UL have been very conservative with batteries. Requiring a room to be of explosion-proof design for VRLA batteries is one very good example; the "volume of electrolyte" is another serious issue. Many of the hazards could have been addressed much more easily, but alas.

Now, once you start talking about used EV batteries inside a house, maybe they have a bit of room to stand.

 

[Jr233]

I think the NEC is there for good reason, but it's also naive to think that big companies don't try to influence codes to increase product sales.

the full code will make homes several thousand more expensive. gfi on the dryer yet i google searched found only 2 cases of elucution and i think fatal were both kids climbing behind dryer one for pet. but they were installed improperly as there were bare wires
they also changed code that makes walls invisible when planning like wall from kitchen to dining room or bathroom if either has outlet in the other room wall or not if eliminating wall the 6 ft rule applies . we are well past the code to save people to trying to catch a 1 in a million possible problem i remember electrician friend say the last code raised price 7000 on new home . and in a time affordable homes are rare
remember a few years ago they mandated private home sprinklers which seems most states vetoed it our city looked at it
and vetoed since every new homes water service would have to be 1 inch which would raise water bill by 50 dollars a month
on top of a very costly assessment for the fire dept . btw the international code board was rapping the meeting up without the sprinkler
code when a fire chief got a group of members to stack the meeting and forced passage . wonder what the rate of self built solar systems
fire problems . now if your off grid do same codes apply. i myself would never do grid tied . when i move i looking for rural county without building code dept but i certainly build responsably in many cases better than minimum

 

[12VoltInstalls]

many people trying to use power to rob us, or to control us.

NEC is there for good reason, but it's also naive to think that big companies don't try to influence codes to increase product sales

I’d agree with that.
Those are accurate claims.
I have no issue with dealing with reality.

What got me pushing back was:

Maintenance guy said:
These stupid laws and restrictions take your rights away from you causing you to purchase only from multinational corporations period end of conversation.

…because while arriving at a ‘spirit’ of truth it used subjective opinion with an error as proof instead of facts.

 

[copec]

Now, once you start talking about used EV batteries inside a house, maybe they have a bit of room to stand.

I mean yeah, it definitely makes sense on the one hand, however, when I widen my gaze and realize all things we can do with our individual freedoms for which our safety is our own prerogative, or even just comparing to any number of things in the average garage that could be a fire hazard, and then I look over the decade I’ve been following DIY powerwall builds and the seriousness for which people take it, and how few of any serious incidents that I’ve seen… it makes this coding and regulation seem complete insane and controlling.

Let me get this straight: There is a legal and reasonable way to build my own airplane from scratch, but I can’t build a battery for my house?

 

[Shimmy]

Let me get this straight...

There might be a sampling bias there on your end (no offense). The logical question is if there were 100x EV-based stationary power sysrems installed *inside* homes, would there be a 100x increase in incidents or a higher rate? My guess is it would be a 1,000X increase personally, based on the number of people who are asking the wrong questions (and getting the wrong ansers) on forums like this. Lithium-ion chemistry just really isn't compatible (from a code perspective) with wood-framed residential construction, especially at the DIY end of the spectrum.

That is not to say it can't be done safely. It is just that if deployment increases the probability of significantly increased rate of incidents. I can think of all kinds of examples, but the most glaring are the ones where people assume that if their dangerous battery is in a metal box that it isn't a fire hazard. There are ways to address the risks, but 20-gauge sheet metal isn't going to do it on its own. People here that properly research and learn about the details (such as tourquing, balancing, and fusing aren't the probem... but the people who think it is "easy" for whatever reason are going to pose safety challenges.

You can always make your own "kit airplane" project. You just need to treat it appropriately and the code permits that. The AHJ may or may not, but that is a different issue.

 

[Cyanlite]

There’s enough posts here talking about bloated battery cells, inverter clones from China, and mis-labeled wire gauges to make me appreciate NEC code and the UL listing process. Surprised some of you that are buying these cheap Chins/knockoff batteries from China haven’t burned down your house yet.

At the same time, I wish NEC was fair and more consistent. There’s more fire risk from a Tesla Powerwall in my garage than my Bluetti AC200Max.

 

[G20]

I think the NEC is there for good reason, but it's also naive to think that big companies don't try to influence codes to increase product sales.

When I first got out of college, my first job was with an HVAC manufacturer that made all of the components, distrubted network controllers, software, communications networks, actuators, digital and analog components, test equipment, etc. As part of the job I attended some of the standards board meetings between manufacturers. It only took one meeting with the various manufacturers to see the standards they generated were for the benifit of the individual companies, not the customers/end users. I was pretty naive then and as an engineer thought we were building value add for our customers. Silly me. Since then, I have witnessed similar behavior in other fields targeting market control, market retention and closed networks over interconnectivity and consumer value.

 

[copec]

There’s enough posts here talking about bloated battery cells, inverter clones from China, and mis-labeled wire gauges to make me appreciate NEC code and the UL listing process. Surprised some of you that are buying these cheap Chins/knockoff batteries from China haven’t burned down your house yet.

At the same time, I wish NEC was fair and more consistent. There’s more fire risk from a Tesla Powerwall in my garage than my Bluetti AC200Max.

I’ve never trusted sourcing stuff directly from Alibaba, because I figured it would take some time to get a pipeline setup of known quality, that’s why I always found someone with regular import sources and contacts, with regular supplies of established quality, and I’m happy to pay them for it.

For cells I’ve exclusively done second life cells after testing them, although the only ones I’m utilizing in my attached garage are Nissan Leaf NCM modules, which are considered almost as safe as LFP modules, with a Nuvation Energy BMS.

I’ve always sanity checked all the small products like wire I get out of China.

I mean I hear you though, there are definitely a lot of badly thrown together DIY projects out there waiting to burn up, but my question is, when is something one’s own prerogative if they doing something unsafe, and when does society step in? In my opinion DIY batteries are far from the point of micro-managed government oversite, but I also understand the reason why it’s there and happening. It seems though we are all in agreement though.

 

[Cyanlite]

but my question is, when is something one’s own prerogative if they doing something unsafe, and when does society step in? In my opinion DIY batteries are far from the point of micro-managed government oversite, but I also understand the reason why it’s there and happening. It seems though we are all in agreement though.

I think the current NEC code of ignoring anything <1kWh is reasonable. Anything at that level is hobbyist and most likely low voltage. The problem to me is the inspectors. I don't think they're knowledgeable in solar and/or battery systems, especially in my area. They don't know the difference between NMC and LiFePo4 and if NEC code doesn't specifically point out the differences, then they're just going to follow what NEC says (which basically is a full UL9540 ESS "system"). Even the average electrician hasn't ever done any solar work.

NEC should follow similar rules like in the financial industry. If you have a Series 7 certification, you're considered an "accredited investor" which is typically reserved for only multi-millionaires doing advanced trading. There should be some kind of "NEC"-like certification process for a layperson (NABCEP perhaps?) to pass and then we can self-certify our own stuff, but at our own risk and perhaps limited to off-grid scenarios only.

 

[Rednecktek]

So where would you even go to FIND all the UL listed stuff to get a new system signed off? Is it just the batteries that have to be UL listed or does the whole combination of batteries/inverter/panels/fuses/shunts/disconnects have to be certified as a package, which would be impossible...?

I've tried the Google and all I'm finding are the code requirements and some batteries that say they're all-the-listed and "Ask us how much it costs" which means "You Can't Afford It" in real world money.

And am I understanding correctly that if I made a system with FLA batteries from WallyWorld it wouldn't require the UL and sign-off?

 

[solardad]

So where would you even go to FIND all the UL listed stuff to get a new system signed off? Is it just the batteries that have to be UL listed or does the whole combination of batteries/inverter/panels/fuses/shunts/disconnects have to be certified as a package, which would be impossible...?

I've tried the Google and all I'm finding are the code requirements and some batteries that say they're all-the-listed and "Ask us how much it costs" which means "You Can't Afford It" in real world money.

And am I understanding correctly that if I made a system with FLA batteries from WallyWorld it wouldn't require the UL and sign-off?

Ask the local AUD / inspector what NEC book they follow. In my area the regulations and guidelines were based on the year of the NEC code but that can vary town by town. Before you buy any equipment just list as part of building application/permit the equipment that you’re using - panels, inverter or charge controller and have them sign off on that.when I did my install five years ago, somethings had to be you UL listed and other things the inspector didn’t care or question. I used a mixture of Chinese or European based breakers along with ones from midnight solar. My rules of thumb at the time was if it was good enough for the rest of the world and has the TUV certificate I was OK with it, the inspector was the same way luckily.

 

[Rednecktek]

Sadly my state just adopted the NEC2020...

 

[12VoltInstalls]

At the same time, I wish NEC was fair and more consistent. There’s more fire risk from a Tesla Powerwall in my garage than my Bluetti AC200Max

More fire potential but imho the frequency of bluetthi burn ups is far higher than powerwalls. I could be wrong?
Nevertheless it appears that risk is higher with bluetthi than powerwalls, though powerwalls do house more potential energy.
Potential and risk are not equal terms.

 

[solardad]

More fire potential but imho the frequency of bluetthi burn ups is far higher than powerwalls. I could be wrong?
Nevertheless it appears that risk is higher with bluetthi than powerwalls, though powerwalls do house more potential energy.
Potential and risk are not equal terms.

Never heard of a Powerwall catching fire in a home installation. Yes they have a more volatile battery chemistry but their use in a solar PV environment is night and day when compared to when the cells are used in a car. As someone put it when folks were using used car packs, a used battery being repurposed for a solar install has a life of luxury, just being 'tickled' vs. the pounding they take when discharging & charging.

 

[G20]

... a used battery being repurposed for a solar install has a life of luxury, just being 'tickled' vs. the pounding they take when discharging & charging.

What is the maximum charge/discharge rate of a Tesla car battery compared to a Off Grid system ?

 

[timselectric]

That would depend on the size of your battery.
Could be less, the same, or higher.