Possible laundry solution

[ricardocello]

My laundry room has a dedicated 20A 120v circuit, now used for the GE Combo. It is on my critical loads subpanel, so I can do washing and drying from battery and solar when the power is out (i’m on-grid).

The currently unused old 30A dryer circuit is sadly 3-wire (L1, L2, and ground), so I can’t put a L14-30 circuit in there, nor do an MWBC (there’s no neutral).

 

[zanydroid]

My laundry room has a dedicated 20A 120v circuit, now used for the GE Combo. It is on my critical loads subpanel, so I can do washing and drying from battery and solar when the power is out (i’m on-grid).

The currently unused old 30A dryer circuit is sadly 3-wire (L1, L2, and ground), so I can’t put a L14-30 circuit in there, nor do an MWBC (there’s no neutral).

For the three wire there are a couple options of various code compliance if you want to do a side-by-side pair of those combo units.

I'm not sure how OK it would be to put both of those on the same 120V 20A circuit. It might not be terrible if both are <= 1200W. Lately I've driven my Kitchen 20A circuits to 4000W for a few minute stretches without tripping anything :laugh:

120/240V conversions:
If it's 10/3 w/o ground (all conductors insulated) you can retrofit by running a #10 EGC separately, either directly to panel or to a 30A or greater circuit close by, going back to the same subpanel.

If it's 10/2 w/ ground, I'm not sure you want to try to convert that bare ground to a neutral and run a parallel retrofit EGC. Sounds like a terrible idea on top of not being code compliant.

120V conversions:
If it's 10/2 with ground, and it's Black/White, you can convert to 120V no problem with code.

If it's 10/2 with ground, and it's Black/Red (not sure if this was ever sold in the US), code-wise you can't relabel one of those to neutral, but IMO you can do it and keep it a secret :laugh:

 

[ricardocello]

For the three wire there are a couple options of various code compliance if you want to do a side-by-side pair of those combo units.

I'm not sure how OK it would be to put both of those on the same 120V 20A circuit. It might not be terrible if both are <= 1200W. Lately I've driven my Kitchen 20A circuits to 4000W for a few minute stretches without tripping anything :laugh:

120/240V conversions:
If it's 10/3 w/o ground (all conductors insulated) you can retrofit by running a #10 EGC separately, either directly to panel or to a 30A or greater circuit close by, going back to the same subpanel.

If it's 10/2 w/ ground, I'm not sure you want to try to convert that bare ground to a neutral and run a parallel retrofit EGC. Sounds like a terrible idea on top of not being code compliant.

120V conversions:
If it's 10/2 with ground, and it's Black/White, you can convert to 120V no problem with code.

If it's 10/2 with ground, and it's Black/Red (not sure if this was ever sold in the US), code-wise you can't relabel one of those to neutral, but IMO you can do it and keep it a secret :laugh:

Yeah, it’s 10/2 black white with bare ground, could definitely make it a 20A or 30A 120V, that‘s a great idea.

I always do my best to follow code (unless it is downright stupid to do so).

I’m not comfortable with a bare ground as a current carrying conductor, so that’s out.
If I really want to burn money I could put an autotransformer on the wall in there, and get my neutral.
No, i’m not doing that, that would be silly.

 

[zanydroid]

Yeah, it’s 10/2 black white with bare ground, could definitely make it a 30A 120V, that‘s a great idea.

You want to make it 20A since there's very few appliances intended for 5-15 / 5-20 that are allowed to go on circuits larger than 20A, the max OCPD for appliances/utilization clause in NEC basically rules it out unless the manufacturer explicitly says it is OK.

Also you can't directly put 5-15/5-20Rs on a 30A circuit.

You might be able to find some kind of fused adapter that can give you 5-15R's off a TT-30. I know there are specialty fused adapters for 5-15R's coming off a 14-30 (Miele has one for their appliances)

If you're going to do an autotransformer you might as well just pull a new circuit.

WRT deviating from code, I think relabeling phase to neutral within a cable isn't absolutely terrible with /2 cable. If it was a cable with many more conductors (like 12/4 etc) it might be too confusing and error prone.

 

[ricardocello]

You want to make it 20A since there's very few appliances intended for 5-15 / 5-20 that are allowed to go on circuits larger than 20A.

Also you can't directly put 5-15/5-20Rs on a 30A circuit.

You might be able to find some kind of fused adapter that can give you 5-15R's off a TT-30. I know there are specialty fused adapters for 5-15R's coming off a 14-30 (Miele has one for their appliances)

If you're going to do an autotransformer you might as well just pull a new circuit.

WRT deviating from code, I think relabeling phase to neutral within a cable isn't absolutely terrible with /2 cable. If it was a cable with many more conductors (like 12/4 etc) it might be too confusing and error prone.

20A: Quite true, and i’ve got a bunch of 20A SquareD HOM single pole breakers sitting around not protecting anything.
The autotransformer remark was pure silliness.

I agree with you on code bending when there is nothing electrically questionable and the intent is clear (white tape).
I’ve got a similar feeling about black and red DC PV conductors in conduit (vs white and red), but that is for another thread.

 

[zanydroid]

I’ve got a similar feeling about black and red DC PV conductors in conduit (vs white and red), but that is for another thread.

My house rules on White and Red are: don't flaunt it in the face of the inspector, and don't do it if it's something that will likely need regular maintenance (like, commercial/industrial or whatever). Things that need regular maintenance by a variety of people benefit a lot more from being sane and consistent.

But if it's your own homestead or house... the chances someone will get hurt on that property are very low, and the total victims added up across the whole country for this situation are probably close to zero too. (As long as you don't accumulate a lot of random colors in different parts of the house, across different circuits. Then the chances of someone getting hurt or ragequitting go up a lot. I think I'll give myself 1-2 white as hot mulligans for my house. Currently at 0).

I do like the rules on making sure each PV pair is clearly groupable with one another if you have a lot in one conduit or wireway.

 

[Hedges]

The currently unused old 30A dryer circuit is sadly 3-wire (L1, L2, and ground), so I can’t put a L14-30 circuit in there, nor do an MWBC (there’s no neutral).

I was going to say isolation transformer to derive neutral, but most are a bad load for an inverter.
What will work OK is to apply the 240V to a 480V primary, and use a 240V secondary to get 120V. You'd need two of those to get 120/240V out. Or use just one to make 120V only, with derived neutral which you can ground. Keep that L/N circuit separate from the existing L1/L2 circuit.

You don't have any 120V only or 240V only loads you want to power with just wires, like tools?

If I really want to burn money I could put an autotransformer on the wall in there, and get my neutral.
No, i’m not doing that, that would be silly.

I don't like the idea of auto-transformer to derive neutral. If you bonded it to ground, ground would carry "objectionable current", because it would be different voltage from other neutral (when one has imbalanced 120V loads.)

 

[Eber]

GE Profile™ 4.8 cu. ft. Capacity UltraFast Combo with Ventless Heat Pump Technology Washer/Dryer​

GE Profile PFQ97HSPVDS

I like that GE concept. My current system is an LG washer with LG dryer stacked. The dryer can only be run on delicate which pulls 3k watts. Well within spec of my Schneider 6848pro. But it never takes more than 45 minutes no matter how big the load because that washer really spins that water out. I have never seen anything like it.

I have to admit, that GE AIO is looking nice. Maybe in the future....

 

[ricardocello]

I like that GE concept. My current system is an LG washer with LG dryer stacked. The dryer can only be run on delicate which pulls 3k watts. Well within spec of my Schneider 6848pro. But it never takes more than 45 minutes no matter how big the load because that washer really spins that water out. I have never seen anything like it.

I have to admit, that GE AIO is looking nice. Maybe in the future....

Still very happy with the GE Combo. Fortunately, we bought it on sale, it is definitely pricey.
It gets almost daily use due to household size, I’ll post something if it breaks.

 

[petee_c]

The new GE "one and done" is about the size of a standard front load washer, possibly a little taller. it has 4.8 cubic feet of capacity.

Load B - Mens clothes. 1 pair jeans, 2 khaki shorts, 4 heavy weight t-shirts, 2 pair socks, and 3 boxers. used "normal" setting w/ warm water. 1 hour 49 mins to wash and dry. Total electrical usage 0.93 kWh

Load C - 5 bath towels. 6 wash cloths, 1 hand towel. We buy the thick pure cotton stuff. When soaking wet, these towels weigh a LOT. used the "towels" setting and hot water and extra high longer duration spin. took 2 hours 26 minutes to complete the load. Total electrical usage for this load was 1.14 kWh

Thx for posting this. I'm curious, is that the max the machine can hold?

8 months of the year, just wife and I, in the summer, 2 college aged kids will be home.

 

[zanydroid]

Anyone on this thread tried the LG combo yet?

I watched a few videos, and I think I understand why it is $400 cheaper and smaller than the GE (current prices on Costco). The heatpump is smaller and squished inside the spare footprint of a regular 5 cu ft washer. Versus adding a "hat" for the GE. Longer compressor-specific warranty on the GE (5 year), while LG covers it under the 1 year general (2 year at Costco). If the short LG warranty gives enough pause to pique interest in adding an extended warranty, the price gap gets a lot smaller.

 

[zanydroid]

The new GE "one and done" is about the size of a standard front load washer, possibly a little taller. it has 4.8 cubic feet of capacity.

It is about the standard floor footprint of the 5.0 foot class but it is "a lot" taller. It has a really good chance of not fitting in a custom cabinet if you were foolhardy enough to design a laundry space like that.

 

[petee_c]

The energy guide website seems to list some 7cu ft heat pump dryers (other than Whirlpool) but the model numbers don't match anything on the LG Canada website.... I reached out to them(LG) on their contact me webpage and they can't see if it's coming to Canada....

 

[ricardocello]

It has a really good chance of not fitting

Missed my wire shelving above the unit by 1.5”, it was close but made it.

 

[zanydroid]

The energy guide website seems to list some 7cu ft heat pump dryers (other than Whirlpool) but the model numbers don't match anything on the LG Canada website.... I reached out to them(LG) on their contact me webpage and they can't see if it's coming to Canada....

There aren't that many 7 cu ft standalone HP dryers. A lot more 24" in North America, maybe 5 or so.

I think the GE combo and the LG combo (both that 27" XL size) significantly increased the number of "dryers" in that size despite not being standalone dryers.

 

[JakAHearts]

Ive had the GE Profile since early September and have around 160 loads of laundry through it. We LOVE this machine. Firstly, even though we're not on solar yet, for a full wash and dry the machine ONLY uses .8-1.5 kWh! It replaced an old washer and dryer unit where the dryer was 28amp/220v! Based on my utility rate, I save 50 cents or more per use, not counting that this machine uses less water too so there is savings there as well.

There is a bit more maintenance involved but as this is a DIY group, I assume most people here are more than capable of it. I vacuum the inside of the coil area probably ever 15-20 cycles, clean the lint filter off after every cycle (which I did with my old dryer anyway) and drain/clean the pump filter every 30-40 cycles. It's really not much and for the convenience it provides our family along with the money savings, it's a no brainer. Even better if youre trying to cut solar usage.

 

[zanydroid]

Thanks for the overview. Any thoughts about the belt drive maintenance on the profile, vs the more modern direct drive drum on the LG?

 

[JakAHearts]

Thanks for the overview. Any thoughts about the belt drive maintenance on the profile, vs the more modern direct drive drum on the LG?

I haven't really thought about it much. I watched a complete teardown of the upper section of the machine here -

The belt on my old washer lasted almost 15 years. As this is a DIY forum, if/when the belt breaks, I'll be DIYing that too. Then again.... I do get older every day and I'll be 55 in 15 years so I may think differently then. Or think the same and just not have the physical capability.

 

[Eber]

I haven't really thought about it much. I watched a complete teardown of the upper section of the machine here -

The belt on my old washer lasted almost 15 years. As this is a DIY forum, if/when the belt breaks, I'll be DIYing that too. Then again.... I do get older every day and I'll be 55 in 15 years so I may think differently then. Or think the same and just not have the physical capability.

lol, I am 62 and still work my stone quarry , setup all my solar myself, do all my mechanical repairs.
you should be fine if there is still a planet by then,

 

[registered-bum]

I like that GE concept. My current system is an LG washer with LG dryer stacked. The dryer can only be run on delicate which pulls 3k watts. Well within spec of my Schneider 6848pro. But it never takes more than 45 minutes no matter how big the load because that washer really spins that water out. I have never seen anything like it.

I have to admit, that GE AIO is looking nice. Maybe in the future....

I like the concept and the reviews are generally really quite good.

I'm anxious about the reliability - they've shoved a whole lot of technology into a small form factor, and I imagine they have several little computers and but-loads of sensors that all need to work correctly for the product to deliver the washing/drying service.

As an engineering nerd, I'm not saying no, but I'm afraid that thing is gonna be very fragile (still driving my '90's YJ and GMC).
I love good rugged tech, but hate black-boxes that break and then cost a mint.

Will like replace the 18yo whirlpool pair with LG, just cause they're a bit higher rated on reliability -and I can't justify the speed queen.