This was a good video and the light strobing is absolutely not acceptable. You should not have had to pay out of pocket for being a beta tester. Your articulate commentary and video will likely cost them many more times the value in lost sales than a complete refund, but unfortunately that is the way some companies operate. My experience with SS was better than yours, but I was able to correct my rack issues myself by taking it apart and moving some brackets. So far, no problem with the Lifepower4 batteries or Growatt 12k inverter but I've only had them a month and don't use them daily.
Signature solar horrible customer service
- Thread starter chuck1972
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It really sucks anybody has to make and post a video to get to that point, if they acknowledge its an issue.
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
Wow that slow on/off was not what I was expecting.
Something is very wrong and different with the EG4 units compared to the LV/SP units.
There could be differences based on hitting a lower price point and being made in China instead of Taiwan.
I would love to see a detailed investigation of the units side by side.
Something is very wrong and different with the EG4 units compared to the LV/SP units.
There could be differences based on hitting a lower price point and being made in China instead of Taiwan.
I would love to see a detailed investigation of the units side by side.
BenFromSignatureSolar
Solar Addict
The 6500 is made in Taiwan. We are working to get these issues resolved. We have a Director at their Taiwan facility right now trying to get to the bottom of some of these issues. They believe we have fixes for the majority of the problems we're seeing commonly posted here. Will know more at the beginning of next week.
I wonder if the strobing happens with a single unit? It could be poor phase matching between units, causing one of the legs to become unstable in voltage or frequency. If I was SS, I'd be doing lots of testing with a focus on waveform analysis in parallel mode.
BenFromSignatureSolar
Solar Addict
The issues with strobing seem to only happen in parallel. Single units are not seeing these issues. And it hasn't been due to waveform as we've ran them under scope and the sine waves look great. Thought is that we are having issues with current sharing. I should know more in the next two days.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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How is current sharing implemented?
I think Sunny Island does that by simulating output resistance - voltage sag in proportion to current.
That means no communication required (except synchronization, which can be infrequent). Wire lengths should be close to same.
If sine waves look great, don't think lights would be affected. You could try a deep enough scope memory capture to include the period when lights go out. A bit more difficult to trigger on dropout - maybe just hit "stop" button after observing the blink.
A detector circuit, RMS, or diode R C, would turn AC sine wave into analog indicator of amplitude, which could go to one channel for trigger.
There are power quality meters. Those should grade inverter output, but might not be as useful to understand root cause.
I think Sunny Island does that by simulating output resistance - voltage sag in proportion to current.
That means no communication required (except synchronization, which can be infrequent). Wire lengths should be close to same.
If sine waves look great, don't think lights would be affected. You could try a deep enough scope memory capture to include the period when lights go out. A bit more difficult to trigger on dropout - maybe just hit "stop" button after observing the blink.
A detector circuit, RMS, or diode R C, would turn AC sine wave into analog indicator of amplitude, which could go to one channel for trigger.
There are power quality meters. Those should grade inverter output, but might not be as useful to understand root cause.
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
I'm thinking it looks fine, until one or both inverters get confused and drop the output for a second until they get themselves sorted again....rinse and repeat.
I have no idea what the current cable does....hang on, it's only used if you want to increase the output current of a single phase, not for a single pair connected to produce split phase.
See, this is why evidence collection, proving the issue, engineering a solution, proving the solution and finally issuing the fix takes time.
Testing and QC should have happened before general release but this is 2023....look at Will's Ford thingy.
I had not looked at Mr. Stone's video till just now (watched enough to see the inset video with the lights powering off and back on). I was thinking up til now that his use of the word strobe was that the lights pulsed. I see instead they go out entirely for a period before coming back on. That looks more like a periodic drop in voltage rather than a frequency issue.
One question I wonder is if this happens when there is no 240v loads or that it happens also when there are 240v loads? I had created a thread sometime back discussing the concept of the use of two 120v HF inverters that were connected (not in parallel!!) to create a simulated 240v split phase. This of course being different in that a real split phase 240v is the output from a center tapped transformer or a generator with poles and windings and was not 2 independently created phases set up to stay 180 degrees apart via electronics like the HF is.
Just a guess, but if these units are not maintaining the proper phase angle at all times (loaded on one leg or both legs) that this might be causing the lights going off and back on.
One question I wonder is if this happens when there is no 240v loads or that it happens also when there are 240v loads? I had created a thread sometime back discussing the concept of the use of two 120v HF inverters that were connected (not in parallel!!) to create a simulated 240v split phase. This of course being different in that a real split phase 240v is the output from a center tapped transformer or a generator with poles and windings and was not 2 independently created phases set up to stay 180 degrees apart via electronics like the HF is.
Just a guess, but if these units are not maintaining the proper phase angle at all times (loaded on one leg or both legs) that this might be causing the lights going off and back on.
Gavin Stone
Solar Addict
Could be. In this case “strobing” was the best terminology I could come up with. Since “pulsing” or “shimmering” are often used to describe the more typical issues some people have with inverters and LED’s. It didn’t seem to matter whether the units were supplying loads or not. I tried both.
I do see what you’re saying about voltage. Which may seem to tie into what Ben has said about their being a voltage sharing issue. It may be extremely slight. But dimmer switches I believe are sensitive enough to react to those slight changes. Evidently we will know the answer soon enough.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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That crossed my mind for a moment. But shouldn't be the case for 120V lighting circuit.
Inadvertently wired between Line1 and Line2? Open neutral creating similar situation (in series with heavier load)? then it might.
Miswiring might happen at one customer site, but wouldn't expect to be reproduced at the vendor.
Sure seems to be dropping out. Or, those particular lights shut off after detecting a glitch/spike/BSR-X10 command. Try a different lightbulb.
Smart Lightbulbs and "EMI" anyone? 120 kHz during zero crossings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_(industry_standard)
Signature would not have been looking there. Hey @BenFromSignatureSolar, does your scope have FFT? If not, adjust timebase.
"Strobing", I took to mean flickering, like when I used a "dimmable" LED on a dimmer. Couldn't stand it, switched to incandescent.
BenFromSignatureSolar
Solar Addict
Phase angle is a great point. That is one thing that we typically try to check for because your average DIYer is not always up to speed with that. I've had people call in experiencing problems in split phase then find out they are showing 120 instead of 180.
BenFromSignatureSolar
Solar Addict
Yes, they do.
Often times we'll try various ways that things could be miswired in R&D to try and determine the issues that will arise from the customer misusing the equipment and the repercussions of doing so. This helps us build more efficient troubleshooting guides.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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But I mean, if you're seeing the strobing of lights at your site, I wouldn't think it was because you accidentally miswired AC the same way. If on purpose, you would have already told them how to fix it.
If related to the type of lights used, are you and customer using LED? Have you tried incandescent?
For a light to completely turn off, then on, either suggests voltage drops to near zero (time scale of a second in the video), or to the point of causing electronic ballast to turn off. Might have a turn-on delay.
Or, electronic control signals (including inadvertent response to interference.)
I was recently at an EMC lab with equipment being tested. Injection of 10Vrms RF on top of AC caused a PDU (controllable power strip) to switch AC on and off, blowing up power supply in another box. It was certified to 3V lab environment, but not 10V industrial.
If you haven't seen anything wrong with the waveform, go back and look again.
It is almost certainly bad, either viewed over a longer timescale to capture the dropouts, or a shorter timescale to see high frequencies.
Between time domain and frequency domain displays, it should become clear. I hadn't thought scope could do it, but an 8 bit scope can clearly resolve -70 dB peaks (down 1000:1 below fundamental). Signals below ADC resolution and below noise floor, which are repetitive, can be seen with FFT.
If related to the type of lights used, are you and customer using LED? Have you tried incandescent?
For a light to completely turn off, then on, either suggests voltage drops to near zero (time scale of a second in the video), or to the point of causing electronic ballast to turn off. Might have a turn-on delay.
Or, electronic control signals (including inadvertent response to interference.)
I was recently at an EMC lab with equipment being tested. Injection of 10Vrms RF on top of AC caused a PDU (controllable power strip) to switch AC on and off, blowing up power supply in another box. It was certified to 3V lab environment, but not 10V industrial.
If you haven't seen anything wrong with the waveform, go back and look again.
It is almost certainly bad, either viewed over a longer timescale to capture the dropouts, or a shorter timescale to see high frequencies.
Between time domain and frequency domain displays, it should become clear. I hadn't thought scope could do it, but an 8 bit scope can clearly resolve -70 dB peaks (down 1000:1 below fundamental). Signals below ADC resolution and below noise floor, which are repetitive, can be seen with FFT.
robby
Photon Vampire
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It’s a pitty that no one I know has an EG4 6500 inverter. I have the scope and the knowledge and I am pretty sure Tom would ship that electric blanket to me so I could see what is going on.
Maybe there is another electronics guy on here with an EG4 that Tom could work with.
SilverbackMP
Solar Addict
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He said DM, which means direct message. Your email has now been scraped by many many bits and crawlers.
realpinochet
Make Stuff In America Again!
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robby
Photon Vampire
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I watched a few of his videos over the months and I really started to wondering if he was just trying to grow a YouTube channel or if he really liked pain and suffering. This video at least made it clear to me that he is just a regular guy with super human patience!
I would have sold those Inverters months ago for 50% off and just sucked the loss and then moved onto something that works.
A solar system setup should not be something that you have to fiddle with and fix, it is just supposed to work transparently and if done right it should be more reliable than the Grid.
As for SS they will continue to tell people that they are growing and they need more time blah blah, we have heard that for a year now!
There problem is not really the quantity of staff they have, it's the quality.
No point in Hiring a bunch of people who know nothing about electronics and then have the blind leading the blind.
You need to pay the big Bucks and have people that can actually solve problems, not people who shuffle problems around hoping that the customer will either figure it out themself or get frustrated and stop calling.
Absolutely correct. It costs a lot of money to have a competent and deep bench of technical support. Simple products like batteries are fine to buy down market, but why people are surprised by poor service for complex products like AIOs is beyond me.
realpinochet
Make Stuff In America Again!
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Well, they manufacture and market EG4 inverters; should they not know their own product? Second, who cares what product it is ..should you have to wait 5 months to get a callback? Lets be real here sir!
42OhmsPA
What's in a title?
They (EG4) doesn't manufacture anything as far as I know, they just relabel and throw some flashy colors on from the OEMs.
Just hit the moq and you can have them tailored to whatever you like.
2-3 business days at an absolute max for a call back, in my opinion. Heck I've gotten a response from Sungoldpower (just another Voltronic reseller from what I understand) in 16 hours on average pre and post sale.
Just hit the moq and you can have them tailored to whatever you like.
2-3 business days at an absolute max for a call back, in my opinion. Heck I've gotten a response from Sungoldpower (just another Voltronic reseller from what I understand) in 16 hours on average pre and post sale.
realpinochet
Make Stuff In America Again!
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SS has stated the EG4 is their brand and is manufactured for them specifically is what I'm saying ..but I get your point. You should get a callback within 24 hours imho and then kept up to date with regular ticket updates throughout the process.
robby
Photon Vampire
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They don't design or manufacturer them and they don't have a clue about the Firmware. They just pick a model from a manufacturer and buy it in sufficient quantity so that they can get a custom paint job and request some minor hardware changes.
Your right about it not making a difference in CS, they should be getting help.
A lot of guys on here just see Power vs Dollars and then are surprised that the lowest priced AIO Inverter does not work properly.
As for customer support they have not really factored that properly into the price so your pretty much getting what you paid for.
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