diy solar

diy solar

Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

Koldsimer said:
I'm not mad, just disappointed that you guys are so incompetent. Knowing the why would in fact fix the problem but Signature is fixated on making adjustments in house to try and get their system to not work rather than addressing the users that have issues. I'll say it again and again- you guys should have been smart enough to recognize the golden opportunity to get a grasp of this problem with my system. I'm right down the road from you guys. You didn't, likely because you thought i was doing something wrong- even though 3 other types of batteries worked with zero issues. Here we are five months later and Signature appears to be no closer to having an answer. Pathetic.
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I said it about 10 times in this thread that I would have loved to come on site. We were told no by our insurance (we are a parts distributor, not installer etc) and legal counsel. We also offered for you to bring your inverter in for us to test while you were exchanging your batteries. We also in the last month (as we continue to troubleshoot this directly with Schneider) offered to exchange our brand new inverter with yours and pay you cash for your trouble to uninstall it and exchange it with ours.

I'm happy to directly help anyone who is having issues to the best of our ability - simply PM me or @ me in the comments. I'm one of the few representatives from companies who are here to help and troubleshoot our products.
 
Shimmy said:
The thing is that nobody that is reading this topic believes SignatureSolar has a) identified the problem; b) baselined the nature of the XW-Pro pre-charge characteristics; or c) solved it for the next person that has an issue. As a potential customer who intends to use an XW-Pro, I still don't really get if the external pre-charge arrangement would do the trick if I encounter problems... or if there won't be enough voltage to the inverter as it begins startup.

Maybe you guys don't have the lab bench stocked with what you would need to make it happen, but if you want to cater to the DIY market and not get your hands dirty troubleshooting on-site you are going to need that equipment. For me, the issue is shipping is going to be extremely expensive and if it doesn't work that is money down the drain which would make a system like SimpliPhi much more competitive.

(If you want to replicate @Koldsimer's specific situation properly I am guessing you need to put the batteries in a cold box around 32F.)
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We have done many many tests trying to replicate his problem including buying the exact same make and model of unit as he has, buying the additional equipment to verify the firmware version (it was the same), manually editing battery parameters to extend and reduce the precharge timer to ridiculous settings. I guess we never did test for temperature - but the user states that the area the batteries are installed is climate controlled to a degree (and the manual states they need to be in this area).
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
We also in the last month (as we continue to troubleshoot this directly with Schneider) offered to exchange our brand new inverter with yours and pay you cash for your trouble to uninstall it and exchange it with ours.
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This would be the key - get your hands on one of the inverters that fails to run with your batteries, reproduce on your bench (you already have the exact battery it failed to start with), then you can fix it.

I suggest you take measurements of the brand new inverter before performing the exchange, because you won't have it to compare to. Things like battery current and voltage vs. time as it is precharged by your battery then powers up. With and without AC loads. Hopefully when you get his you will find a different timing that can be changed with inverter settings. (Would have been easier if you had two new inverters, one for the exchange and one for comparison.)

Most likely issue I would guess is that Kold's inverter starts drawing significant current sooner. Another could be higher standby current. Another could be higher capacitance, although I would have expected your varying precharge time to have reproduced.

Another user had an inverter that couldn't be started with just one of your batteries, but it could with multiple batteries in parallel. That may have been a model without precharge circuit. It suggests inrush was the issue. I suggest you put two inverters in parallel (could even be different brands) on one battery as a way to test impact of higher capacitance.

Gaussian curve and standard deviation - The battery manufacturer's precharge design may have addressed a sample population of some inverters, but a small number will have parameters farther from the mean. A design needs to work with those too, out to some "sigma". To check for that you simply built test cases with some overstress, to test with margin.

en.wikipedia.org

Standard deviation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
There is a big potential difference between an inverter setup that powers up into standby mode versus an inverter that powers up directly to inverting mode.

It normally takes about 0.5 secs to a few seconds for inverter's microcontroller to boot up and do all of its systems checks so even if it jumps into inverting mode after bootup, if the pre-charge is completed and high current pass-through relay engaged before inverter jumps into invert mode there should not be an issue.

If pre-charge time is too long you might get into higher current inverting mode of inverter. With pre-charge resistor still in series, the high load current will collapse the inverter input voltage. Inverter resets and process starts ping-ponging all over again.

A 'one size fits all' solution is very difficult to achieve. Too many variables.

To cover 99.9% of use cases, I think you need to bring up at least 80,000 uF to 50vdc with less than 5 milliohms of system equivalent series resistance within shortest inverter bootup time. I have no idea what the shortest inverter bootup time might be.

To prevent DC circuit breaker contact degradation, I would like to see an initial contact closure current of less than 25 amps (2.0 ohm pre-charge series resistor). This combination of requirements likely has no solution if inverter bootup time is short.
 
RCinFLA said:
There is a big potential difference between an inverter setup that powers up into standby mode versus an inverter that powers up directly to inverting mode.

It normally takes about 0.5 secs to a few seconds for inverter's microcontroller to boot up and do all of its systems checks so even if it jumps into inverting mode after bootup, if the pre-charge is completed and high current pass-through relay engaged before inverter jumps into invert mode there should not be an issue.

If pre-charge time is too long you might get into higher current inverting mode of inverter. With pre-charge resistor still in series, the high load current will collapse the inverter input voltage. Inverter resets and process starts ping-ponging all over again.

A 'one size fits all' solution is very difficult to achieve. Too many variables.

To cover 99.9% of use cases, I think you need to bring up at least 80,000 uF to 50vdc with less than 5 milliohms of system equivalent series resistance within shortest inverter bootup time. I have no idea what the shortest inverter bootup time might be.

To prevent DC circuit breaker contact degradation, I would like to see an initial contact closure current of less than 25 amps (2.0 ohm pre-charge series resistor). This combination of requirements likely has no solution if inverter bootup time is short.
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This is exactly where we run into the issues where specific users run into problems - it is entirely possible that they have a unit that is just slightly outside the standard deviation and causing the issues with our batteries that are designed to fit within that standard deviation. So you get 99.9% of people having no issues but 1 person who has a problem - and it's only going to happen with batteries that have the built in precharge resistor which explains why other batteries work without issues. So, there are a few questions we have to ask: 1 - is this something we can fix on the battery and how far do we push those limits to try and encompass the most end users vs where it becomes more problematic to change parameters to include the .1% who have a specific unit that is causing the problem, and 2. where does the onus of responisibility land when it comes to having a DIY set up with an infinite amount of possible configurations to ensure that what I buy and put together works?

This is why we want to test things in house, on units that don't have any other customizations or additional equipment, and work directly with manufacturers of inverters/batteries to find out what the answer is and where those limits are. Having someone say "Your batteries don't work with XX inverter" is a completely different situation than "Your batteries don't work with my set up using XX inverter" because we don't have the resources to go out and test each individuals custom build and install to verify. Don't get me wrong - we WANT this to work for everyone in any situation, but the reality is there is a level of responsibility that someone takes on when they opt for DIY and there is a chance of failure for a number of reasons. This is why we are happy to work with customers, and at the end of the day if our product isn't right for them, we gladly offer a refund to ensure they can get what they do need to make it work.
 
I should add.
A friends outback radian 8000w using two packs eve 280 ah cells(560ah) with two overkill solar bms in parallel(which have no precharge circuit)
In the process of swapping the old lead acid to lifepo4 nad adding outback flexnet dc battery monitor inverter breakers were accidentally switched on .
While connecting battery to inverter cables there were of course a huge spark but the bms did not fry.
Inverter turned on
 
Bluedog225 said:
Jeeze Mahendra. That’s not acceptable. No progress on a solution?
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Although he has stated multiple times that he has had issues, I have checked multiple times in the past based on his messages if we had a ticket or contact info or ANYTHING and until today when he did PM me, and I have had no success in locating anything. I'll be getting someone from my tech support involved to check a number of parameters on this and to do troublshooting.

To be clear: I have received a large number of people over the last 3-4 months who messaged me regarding this specific issue, but in most cases we were able to locate an issue somewhere else in the system. So - we definitely want to help Mahendra but so far (until today) he hasn't reached out and given us any information so we can even start the troubleshooting. A majority of his posts are simply bashing us and don't really help us to move forward in troubleshooting or finding a solution.

I'd just like to say to everyone - EVERYONE - has an open invitation to either @ me or PM me and as long as you can provide info I'll either move you towards a solution myself or find the person who can. This is always an option. We also offer phone tech support (team has grown a lot so call queue is lower now) and email support. Seriously, we WANT to help people who are buying our products and have questions. We can only succeed if we help you succeed.
 
Bluedog225 said:
Jeeze Mahendra. That’s not acceptable. No progress on a solution?
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I am speaking to Richard on the forum.I Tried calling SS today as well .no success with tech support they are out at the moment.

I will be crude now.
But you guys dont mind me asking when was your purchase .I think i will be looking for batch numbers as well.
 
Koldsimer said:
That's exactly what my schneider 6848 was doing... same clicking noise as well.

Signature and Richard have been totally aware of your problem for months now. How disingenuous of them to imply otherwise. Wish i could say i was surprised.

Good luck Mahindra.
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Its actually bad luck i verified .
Its another inverter gone now one Xantrex
One new outback radian 8048.
Outback inverter seems to be shot .
I am speaking with outback on warranty at the moment but i am scared to put it back on the eg4 or any other inverter for that matter.
 
Koldsimer said:
That's exactly what my schneider 6848 was doing... same clicking noise as well.

Signature and Richard have been totally aware of your problem for months now. How disingenuous of them to imply otherwise. Wish i could say i was surprised.

Good luck Mahindra.
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When did I imply we weren't aware of his issue? I specifically said that I was aware of his multiple posts but that he hasn't PM'd me with any details about his set up, or called our free tech support line for troubleshooting, or really anything that would allow me to track a ticket in any meaningful manner. I have, quite literally, on multiple occasions, very clearly stated that if someone is having this issue to PM me directly so I could gather more information. I don't know his real name, if it was ordered by him or his friend where it's installed, the order number so I can look it up, or anything until today when he PM'd me and provided the video. Everyone is more than welcome to go through this post (and the others regarding this issue) to see with 100% transparency the many times I've asked for this - I have not and will not ever delete any of my forum posts so I am 100% transparent in what I said and when I said it. I'm happy that we can finally work towards a solution for this user, whatever it may be. Not to mention the multiple other people who have PM'd me and I took care of without coming on here and making a whole public spectacle of it.

I honestly don't know what to say at this point beyond I'm here to help, I'm one of the ONLY suppliers/manufacturers/installers who even care enough to post on the forums, and that will always be the case. Hopefully at some point the bashing of myself and SS as a company stop because we are doing our best to help people, we are one of the few companies that even care enough to be present on this forum, and for every person out there who simply logs in to write a snide comment about me or SS, there are dozens of others who PM me or call in or email me letting me know how much they appreciate the fact that we are present on the forums. I really wish you the best and know the LL batteries will treat you and your system well for years to come.
 
Mahendra Gomanie said:
Its actually bad luck i verified .
Its another inverter gone now one Xantrex
One new outback radian 8048.
Outback inverter seems to be shot .
I am speaking with outback on warranty at the moment but i am scared to put it back on the eg4 or any other inverter for that matter.
Click to expand...
So if I am understanding correctly, you had 2 completely different inverters from 2 completely different manufacturers both 'busted'?
 
RichardfromSignatureSolar said:
When did I imply we weren't aware of his issue? I specifically said that I was aware of his multiple posts but that he hasn't PM'd me with any details about his set up, or called our free tech support line for troubleshooting, or really anything that would allow me to track a ticket in any meaningful manner. I have, quite literally, on multiple occasions, very clearly stated that if someone is having this issue to PM me directly so I could gather more information. I don't know his real name, if it was ordered by him or his friend where it's installed, the order number so I can look it up, or anything until today when he PM'd me and provided the video. Everyone is more than welcome to go through this post (and the others regarding this issue) to see with 100% transparency the many times I've asked for this - I have not and will not ever delete any of my forum posts so I am 100% transparent in what I said and when I said it. I'm happy that we can finally work towards a solution for this user, whatever it may be. Not to mention the multiple other people who have PM'd me and I took care of without coming on here and making a whole public spectacle of it.

I honestly don't know what to say at this point beyond I'm here to help, I'm one of the ONLY suppliers/manufacturers/installers who even care enough to post on the forums, and that will always be the case. Hopefully at some point the bashing of myself and SS as a company stop because we are doing our best to help people, we are one of the few companies that even care enough to be present on this forum, and for every person out there who simply logs in to write a snide comment about me or SS, there are dozens of others who PM me or call in or email me letting me know how much they appreciate the fact that we are present on the forums. I really wish you the best and know the LL batteries will treat you and your system well for years to come.
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