Rant: EG4 48v 100ah battery has faulty BMS. Signature solar customer service is TERRIBLE

[Kornbread]

Every one of the Posts you have had about issues is a new post made by a new customer who is having an issue that most of us already know about already. Please stop trying to shove the blame on someone else. If you guys fixed the problems these posts would not exist.

You have the Growatt people who are still waiting on the magical wiring Diagram that is recommended by Signature Solar for Grid use. The last I heard was that you are not willing to release one for fear of liability. Then you have some sort of major Issue with the EG4 Lifepower4 battery. It cannot handle any significant sudden load without tripping. The post by people who are stacking 6 of them together is not much of a comfort to the person who only owns one or two of the batteries. Here is a new one from Yesterday: 2x EG4 Tripping With Magnum 4K

This problem does not happen with the EG4LL but it has it's own set of problems that revolve around a really bad cell balancing system and cells that are of questionable quality. Then we have the 6500EX which has these error 61 problems and sometimes seems to just burn up.

And lastly you guys create most of your own issues because your so focused on selling Products and you don't seem to care about the misleading information you are feeding public. You made it very clear at the launch of the 6500EX that it was not going to have any issue passing inspection because it was UL1741 Listed. After Tons of orders were made by unsuspecting customers we learn that it has no special certification, it just the same document used by the LV6548 for years. It is these kinds of actions that create a Tsunami of negative thread and then you really are going to come on here and play innocent and say you are the victims?

There is no safe magical wiring diagram to connect a Growatt to the grid because SigSolar " ... do not want to be liable for any situations." and of course, Growatt couldn't care less. Service after the sale was the main reason I purchased from a 'reputable' US based retailer and not from a less expensive Asian seller.

Robby, I have not made up my mind if they persist on the forums for the free PR, or to 'beta test' their wares on the consumer.

 

[mvonw]

There is no safe magical wiring diagram to connect a Growatt to the grid because SigSolar " ... do not want to be liable for any situations." and of course, Growatt couldn't care less. Service after the sale was the main reason I purchased from a 'reputable' US based retailer and not from a less expensive Asian seller.

Robby, I have not made up my mind if they persist on the forums for the free PR, or to 'beta test' their wares on the consumer.

My feeling is that they are a young company run by young, inexperienced people who think they know everything and will learn some very hard lessons in business.

 

[Hedges]

My first choice for Solar was SMA ... I give them an A+ for support and a D+ for giving out accurate information

Sol-Ark was my final pick and I honestly do not think you even want to start comparing Sol-Ark customer service with Signature Solar. It would be like comparing the American Moon Landing to the Soviet Moon Landing.

The Soviets crashed into the moon while Apollo 11 was on it

Everyone knows the story of Apollo 11 landing on the moon, but fewer know about Luna 15: The Soviet lunar lander that was busy crashing into the moon's

www.sandboxx.us

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

I will leavethis and don't care if I am kicked off the post.
Northern Arizona sun and wind, outback Energy forum ,Midnite solar forum.There are others I am do t frequent them.

But SS you are full if s#@t at this point.
I stand with what I said at the begining
Having someone answer you phone speaking like they wanna have dinner and then a room or responding to a message is not necessary customer service.

Standing by your product dealing with the issues that didn't show up in the lab test and proving to your customers that you arerealky open versus saying that you are.
Your actions are screaming louder than your words.

PS. I am going with a midnite diy even though it didn't received a good review from Will or tested by him.
My research says it performing well só far or at least I know where I would get support even if it act up

 

[dgjonesy]

Signature Solar and EG4 both offer great customer service in my opinion. I've personally called dozens, if not hundreds of other solar suppliers during my time here for a number of reasons. That is, if they even offer phone support at all.

This has not been my experience with SS. I had an issue recently with an EG4 Lifepower4 going into short circuit alarm when being turned on.

To start I was unable to reach anyone in support via phone and finally after many pointless emails was told just to buy another battery. I did eventually resolve the issue on my own with zero useful help from SS.

I started my system small planning to expand incrementally. I think I’ll be looking elsewhere for a vendor with some semblance of customer support.

 

[mvonw]

I suspect that the industry hates DIY, in general. It’s the equivalent of working in retail, vs. commercial products. I certainly would never start that business that caters to DIY. Too much hassle.

 

[Alkaline]

I have learned that unless you do DIY you don't know what type of hocus pocus they put in. I rather be able to pick and chose the components and swap them.

I never buy a pre-made computer for the same reason, always better to pick your components instead.

 

[mvonw]

I have learned that unless you do DIY you don't know what type of hocus pocus they put in. I rather be able to pick and chose the components and swap them.

I never buy a pre-made computer for the same reason, always better to pick your components instead.

I agree, that’s why I built my own system. I started playing with 12 volt systems 10 years ago and graduated up to 20kWp system I installed on my own. If I paid someone to buy/install it, it would have cost 3x more and I would have been tethered to the installer (which isn’t even pracatical at my location). I just think the people who sell the components to DIY folks have a tough target market. When I started I knew absolutely nothing. Now I know just a tiny bit more than nothing.

 

[ColtB45]

I had an issue recently with an EG4 Lifepower4 going into short circuit alarm when being turned on.
...
I did eventually resolve the issue on my own with zero useful help from SS.

Please excuse the hijack, but how did you resolve it?

 

[dgjonesy]

Please excuse the hijack, but how did you resolve it?

Colt,

I fixed it by disconnecting my PV array. EG4 was then able to turn on without a short circuit alarm and then the MPP LV6048 was able to power up. I was the able to reconnect my PV array.

 

[Will Prowse]

Just want to chime in here... Signature Solar definitely has the worst customer service I have encountered in many years... and I wont be buying from them again.

I ordered 4 x Eg4 6500ex inverters and 12 x Eg4 batteries. Spent a lot of momey. Got the inverters last week and installed them, and only 1 of them was working properly. Not knowing if it was my own mistake or not I emailed tech support and received no response. after a day or two i then emailed normal customer support.

The next day customer support emailed me telling me they have been discussing on my issue all morning and needed more information, so i sent them a video of the issues.

A few hours later, customer support emailed telling me to return the units I would need to pay a 30% restock fee and pay for shipping. I said woah hat wasn't fair if the product was defective... their response was because said I refused to receive technical support so they were going to charge me.

My mouth hit the floor... I sent them videos, emails of the issues, with no response.. how was that refusing to troubleshoot? so i asked them just that.. how was I refusing technical support.

They emailed back the next day that sorry they must of been thinking of a different customer... o my god i thought i was in the twilight zone. Then they emailed and said sorry the tech support guy wasnt in that day ( after remember they said they were working with tech support all morning )

So fast forward a day.. customer support emailed me and promised that Adam their top technical support would reach out to me that morning and help. Adam never contacted me... Nobody from technical support ever responded. I emailed again yesterday to inform them nobody has contacted me... and its been crickets.

So yeah... I know these units are new to market... i make electronics for a living so I know new things take a while to work out the demons... I have a lot of patience for that. But the horrendous customer service... dealbreaker.

Update.. they must be reading this forum because some guy named Alex just emailed me from tech support... but of course now its too late ive taken the eg4s down and put back up my 6548s and i will build those out.

Can you post video and pictures of your issues? I'm still trying to figure out the issue you had. They are not special inverters, they are the same as mpp lv6548. Can you also post your settings? Or what occured when you turned them on. And your wiring configuration.

 

[Will Prowse]

I went back and looked at the Will video. He says they are UL Listed. Doesn’t he?

I’m confused about the UL listing. Can you shed any light?

View attachment 100790View attachment 100790

I thought they were, that was my understanding over the phone with signature solar. But then Ian from watts 24/7 told me that the original lv6548 has the same certification for years. So I updated my video as you guys pointed out and deleted some segments.

The only real difference I can find with eg4 over lv6548 is that it has higher input voltage, and their firmware is slightly different to accommodate for eg4 protocol. And a different warranty usually. Depends on who you buy it from. That's pretty much it. Unless I am missing something.

 

[Will Prowse]

UL Certified is pretty much useless. It's just an independent lab running a bunch of test of the main things you specify and then checking the basic safety of the Unit. Its a certification of the Unit itself that basically says it does what they say it will do. It does not delve into the reliability or safety of the unit in depth or the safety of the parts that make up the unit.

UL Listed means that UL Lab themselves have looked at the Inverter. They start by looking at the Parts that make up the Inverter from the BOM list and the documentation you have to supply on those parts.

So let me put this into context. If you have an Inverter and you say it has a 40 Amp Breaker on it. The UL CERTIFICATION company will just check that you have a 40 Amp breaker and that it trips at around 40 Amps when they test the Inverter. They don't care about reliability of the breaker itself, they are just evaluation the Inverter to see that it does what the company says it will do. (Breaker tripped at 40 Amps, Check)

To be UL TESTED that inverter company must first submit the paper work for all of the major components in the Inverter. Even before the UL labs test the Inverter they will check the components specifications. If you have a 40 Amp breaker they want to see that 40 Amp Breakers UL Compliance data. That data for the breaker will say the breaker trips at 42 Amps and can reliably do so at least 1000 times as specified by the manufacturer and it will always fail in an open state and is made of non flammable material. UL will then move on to capacitors, plug connectors, fuses etc. making sure all of them meet safety compliance standards. The BOM list once approved will now be compared against what is inside the units sent for testing to make sure they match.

Once this is all done and they know that everything inside the Inverter has been certified to work safely and reliably they will then start testing the Inverter Itself based on the specifications presented but in a much more rigorous manor than the Certification done by TUV etc. If the Inverter can pass things like dead shorts on the output without flaming and it can pass a whole host of test standards that are from organizations like the NEC and others then it will pass and get listed. This is not a cheap procedure, it is in fact very expensive and not worth it for most Chinese companies. Mainly because the parts they use inside are not UL compliant and to buy parts that are would double the price of the Inverter.

There are lots of products that are UL listed that you should never buy. Low quality. The listing doesn't mean much a lot of times as you mention. I do prefer 1741 listed or certified though, so that a reputable company can test anti islanding and the basic features. Usually if it's certified or listed, you know it should work, even if the quality is extremely low.

And yes, very expensive for the true UL listing. My understanding is you can use TUV certificate to pass inspections. But would like to hear your thoughts. These are Offgrid inverters regardless, so I don't think anyone is trying to pass an inspection with them. I have a new page on my website with code compliant systems using a sol ark inverter sold by current connected. Just in case people really want a true hybrid inverter that is code compliant.

 

[Will Prowse]

heh heh yeah saw that...

Oh did he?? What happened?

 

[Will Prowse]

Just the latest story of poor service from signature solar. Doesn't seem to matter how much you spend, they just aren't very good at resolving issues. If you're really lucky, the owner (James) will insult you on a public forum after taking thousands of your dollars!

SOK all day over eg4. I own both. Better battery and even better vendor. Just talk with Dexter at current connected and he will get you taken care of. It's not a coincidence that he sells thousands of batteries and you never hear about stories like this. These shit shows are a daily occurrence with signature solar and eg4 products.

Sok does have fantastic customer support. My issue is that all these products use the same parts, so there isnt that big of a difference between them all. Such as the server rack batteries. Same bms, same cells and same off the shelf switches/breakers etc. It's hard to choose between them. If you know what you're doing and how to set the batteries up (and do not require customer support), they are pretty much all the same. I wanted to make a buyers guide video for the server rack batteries, but they all use the same parts, so I don't know what I would talk about. Sok does have better cell holders. I guess that is a noticable design difference.

Because all of these products are clones of each other, most of the time people will buy from whoever has them in stock. That's what I typically do. I don't like doing presale orders and waiting 4 months when I can buy the same exact unit from someone else.

Usually if I have an issue with a product, I have to figure it out. Because the customer support team does not have enough experience with new products to help me. So usually I'll just tinker till I get it to work. These distributors don't manufacture the products, so if I ask them a question, they have to ask the manufacturer and it can take a while to get a response. I'm surprised people are having issues with lv6548's at all. I have 5 of them now, and every issue I had could be solved from tinkering with the settings. Very easy to use units. I think people want plug n play, and the lv6548's settings are not that friendly in my opinion. I would assume that the issues people have with lv6548 are user error and confusion with the settings. I just put 2 megawatthours through my newest units, and haven't touched them since day one. It seems like people who have experience building these systems have zero issues. But I think the beginners are having a tough time with the settings. I could be wrong though, let me know if you think I am.

 

[Will Prowse]

I have learned that unless you do DIY you don't know what type of hocus pocus they put in. I rather be able to pick and chose the components and swap them.

I never buy a pre-made computer for the same reason, always better to pick your components instead.

I feel like diy doesn't exist anymore. Connecting a ready built battery to an all in one system does not feel like "DIY" in my opinion. I understand that's the direction the market is headed, and for good reason. But compared to my days of bread board prototyping and programming, this is just easy. I used to build various robotic arms and animatronic systems when I was younger, which required a lot of work. Mostly programming. These solar systems today are so simple now, there's not much involved. Everything in solar feels like plug n play at this point.

 

[Hedges]

Mostly programming. These solar systems today are so simple now, there's not much involved.

And whatever problems they do exhibit is mostly due to (firmware) programming?

Everything in solar feels like plug n play at this point.

Which is the point battery, inverter, charge controller, smart load controls ought to get to.
Design would be mostly about voltage, current, wires, wattage, capacity.

I suppose actual plug and pray could appear in the market, with automatic recognition, drivers transferred from the device, pulled from a pre-installed library, downloaded from web.

A lot of DIY is about undercutting excessive markup and high labor rates.
Commodity products, built in the Far East, and distributed efficiently, eliminate that incentive.
Appliances (not including luxury models) fall into that category, and some have final assembly domestically. Problem occurs when quality is lost, for instance due to sourcing cheapest parts and OEM not aiming for decade long life.

Like a lot of products, we'll see reliable and unreliable brands, many sold based on price and marketing image. The bad drives out the good.

You entered the field working with systems useful to the van life crowd. Bulk of the PV market was consumer and commercial grid-tie. I think battery systems to game utility company rate schedules, both for new PV install and retrofit, are going to be the next big thing. Which is unfortunate, because simply shuffling power around the grid is much more efficient than one person charging the batteries he bought while neighbor discharges his to power a load. Same was true of GT PV to offset retail rates, but costing 4x what utility scale PV costs.

The best use of batteries by consumers would be to keep critical load operating during grid failures.
But with batteries down to $0.05/kWh of useful life, consumer use for electric rate arbitrage makes sense.
(Is this at present only due to supply and demand of reject LiFePO4 batteries manufactured for Chinese electric bus applications?)

Labor is the big cost item here. In U.S. we can buy GT PV equipment for $1/watt ($0.025/kWh over 20 years), but installation costs $3/watt. Somehow, Australians can get it for $1/watt installed.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I think the beginners are having a tough time with the settings. I could be wrong though, let me know if you think I am.

You asked on YouTube about new vid ideas. There’s a good one in that sentence.

I think a nice slow 30-min vid showing issues and the discovery of with mitigation solutions would be interesting. Like a different style than 99% of yours are (not a complaint btw) - a well-written pre-planned carefully detailed and flow-chart m-style explained with a 4 minute summary at the end.
That’s what I would suggest - identify some frequent problems, create a solution. That will be cross-platform educational, too, because of the thought process. But don’t stop your ‘normal’ stuff

 

[Kornbread]

You asked on YouTube about new vid ideas. There’s a good one in that sentence.

I think a nice slow 30-min vid showing issues and the discovery of with mitigation solutions would be interesting. Like a different style than 99% of yours are (not a complaint btw) - a well-written pre-planned carefully detailed and flow-chart m-style explained with a 4 minute summary at the end.
That’s what I would suggest - identify some frequent problems, create a solution. That will be cross-platform educational, too, because of the thought process. But don’t stop your ‘normal’ stuff

Yes, absolutely a great idea. I know it would be impossible to cover every issue/setting from every model, but hit the major brands and especially, battery charge stages and voltage settings.

 

[Scat]

Yeah...it's disappointing for sure. The first thing I would do is put a clamp meter on the vacuum power wire (not the neutral or ground) and see what the max inrush current is. If it exceeds the battery spec, then that's your answer. The BMS may be programmed on the conservative side of what the battery pack could actually do but some of the rack mount units have an even lower max output...like the ones from watts247. I think they're only rated at 50A.

I've been trying to spec out a system that would be able to start my 4-ton HVAC unit and the number of batteries and the size of the inverter needed for that is likely a $10k purchase at least. It would be cheaper for me to install a mini-split or two and leave the main AC off.

@Browse I am not afiliated with any of the below links, just sharing information.

I looked around to see if we can post links, didn't find a section about the rules of the forum.

Take a look of these videos, I have watch this guy he (diyhvacguy) has alot of good informaion on ACs.
Great tutorials

His youtube channel is:

https://www.youtube.com/@diyhvacguy

This $150 Soft Start Allows You To Run Your A/C With A Generator! Introducing The ICM870

and this one:
Prepare For An Emergency Power Outage By Installing This Device. Micro-Air Soft Start

AC Micro-Air Inc. - EasyStart Model Selector
this calculator will tell you what model Micro-Air you need

Micro-Air, Inc. - EasyStart Model Selector

The Micro-Air is more expensive and has bluetooth connection.

Hopes this help you to run your 4-Ton HVAC.
Scat